Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If you can point out where it is stated that Invulnerable saves are a characteristic I'll gladly concede that point.

Invul saves are different to armor saves. How are they different? In that Invul saves may always be taken.
Are there any other differences? Nope, rules don't state any. Oh - so they must be the same.
This is also consistent with how the rules are actually applied. Yay!

You can't do so then. Instead you've chosen to quote that Inv saves are different to armour saves but then go on to claim that they also the same. Interesting. Moving on.

Did you even read the rule I referenced and quoted?
And you have zero actual support for your assertion that invul saves work without being a characteristic?

"Moving on" would mean you were right - since you're demonstrably not you should've said "I don't feel like supporting my argument so I'm going to take my toys home."
I've proven that they are different in one, single, way. You're stating that they're different in a way other than that. I've proven my point with rules. You've made yours up.
I wonder which one is more valid when discussing rules in 40k...

I am right. You can't cite any rule that cites that Inv saves are a characteristic and you just can't handle that. If you want rules try reading p2 of the BRB; the page where the 40k characteristics are defined. You will notice that Invul saves aren't mentioned anywhere. You'll also notice they aren't included in a models characteristic statistics.