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Well, Serpents are overpowered. The rest is not.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Serpents are overpowered. The rest is not.

As I said the army is not overpowered but the lists people create are, with your daily dose of, you guess it:

I knew I'd get lit up for that "they deserve to be OP" comment. Hehehe.
Spam is just spam though. Its always been there. Its always a issue. It can be beat. Not always but it can be. Spam in my eyes isn't a huge deal. Its what people play. They play their best units. Makes sense to me.
Broken stuff on the other hand offends me. Me Eldar codex has one really broken thing with the Mantarch/Lolseer one can field. I have never and will never play that. Its weak and anyone playing it sucks.
Now the jet seer star is also broken evidently. I have never seen it in person though nor net anyone who fields it. (same can't be said for the man arch crap I see that non stop). From what I gather it works similar to the screamer star with psychic buffs and a loophole. Anyone playing that crap needs punch led in the D. Alot and often.
Anyways spam is spam. Heldrakes,riptides, wraithknights, cron flyers, vendettas, chimera (yeah I know a guy), drop pod, wave serpent, its goes on and on. Spam is spam. I don't sweat spam. I expect it actually.

Makumba wrote:
Sure go on . The necron pre new dex had a draw against another uber race . Their new fluff lets them use the power of gravity to blow up their own gods . Sure that is impressive , but even when they won , they weren't able to finish everyone off. Nids finished everyone in their own galaxy and then did it a few times again in other galaxies . Necrons to top that would have to do the same and then go to warp and kick all the warp entities living there in the nads.
If it wasn't for old ones web ways necrons wouldn't be even able to go around at all .

First of all, you're making the erroneous assumption that all galaxies are equal. Who cares how many nameless galaxies the Nids managed to consume in the past? So far as we know none of them was anywhere near as nasty as the WH40K milky way.

Secondly, gravity manipulation is goddamn pedestrian as far as Necron tech goes, what they used against the C'tan broke causality itself as a side effect.

Your reference to the Warp is downright nonsensical, given that the Nids have never to my knowledge actually entered the warp themselves (their FTL is not warp based). Even if we were to assume that the warp entities present in other galaxies are anywhere near as nasty as those who call the milky way home (which we really shouldn't, seeing as how the Warp's nastiness is largely a side effect of the War in Heaven) and that every galaxy they ate had some kind of Eye of Terror equivalent (which is a rather silly assumption) there's still no reason to assume that the Tyranids had at any point actually needed to face the full gathered might of said entities.

Moreover, Dolmen Gates are used for strategic level FTL, the Necrons are fully capable of utilizing more conventional realspace FTL drives for when called for, as they did on multiple occasions during the Fall of Orpheus as detailed in IA12.

Now for some actual meaningful direct comparisons between Necron and Tyranid "technologies":

Small arms:
- Tyranid: Small arms largely consist of what are basically biological slug thrower weaponry. Generally unimpressive, only larger organisms possess ranged weaponry worthy of note.
- Necron: Small arms range from anti-matter pistols, through smaller scale Gauss weaponry (the weakest of which, going by fluff, can penetrate tank armor and vaporize Terminators with single hits) and directed electrical discharge weapons capable of reducing humans to charred coals, to wrist mounted plasma flamethrowers. Special mention to the Tachyon Arrow, a one shot personal weapon of unlimited range that can penetrate a mountain.
Advantage: Necrons.

Heavy Weaponry:
- Tyranids: Large variety of bioweaponry, includes powerful projectiles loaded with molecular acid, various sentient munitions of respectable power and limited course correction capabilities, moderately powerful plasma weaponry.
- Necrons: Heavier Gauss weaponry variants capable of overpenetrating a Land Raider without noticeable deflection or attenuation of the beam (more powerful ground based Gauss weapon platforms can even shoot down Imperial cruisers in orbit), larger scale anti-matter weaponry, field artillery pieces with power cores that can destroy entire planets by going critical, molecular disruption weaponry capable of effortlessly cutting through slabs of future-steel 6m thick with a swift sweep, the list goes on.
Advantage: Necrons.

Melee Weaponry:
- Tyranids: A variety of spikes, spines needles, mandibles, claws and whips of various degrees of sharpness and utility, some of which possess capabilities on par with IoM power weapons.
- Necrons: Power weapon equivalents possess disruption fields that are more powerful than those employed by Imperial power weapons by orders of magnitude according to the AdMech's own estimates. Other melee weapons include staffs that temporally disrupt opponents they strike, reducing their speed to a crawl, bladed weapons that phase out of the material plane and partially rematerialize when inside the target, allowing them to sever major arteries without first bothering to cut through the armor, etc...
Advantage: Necrons.

Material Science:
- Tyranids: Reinforced carapace can, at the high end, match Imperial Adamantium in terms of durability (IIRC by basically incorporating adamantium into the composition of the carapace itself).
- Necrons: Heavier armor made up of non-euclidean function materials beyond the understanding of the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus that shows clear superiority to adamantium. Living metal bodies and vehicles consistently match or exceed the durability of IoM equivalents of similar size.
Advantage: Necrons.

Starship propulsion:
Tyranids: Slow as f**k compared to most factions' sublight drives, can take anywhere from weeks to years to reach inhabited planets after dropping from FTL at the system's edge.
Necrons: Inertialess drive enables Necron vessels to accelerate from full stop to near the speed of light in a fraction of a second or come from such speeds to full stop in a similar timeframe, as well as pull off maneuvers that Imperial fleet personal consider flat out impossible (allowing capital ships to dodge Imperial torpedoes with "contemptuous ease").
Advantage: Necrons.

Starship weaponry:
- Tyranids: Pound for pound generally inferior to Imperial equivalents, can only achieve victory in space via overwhelming numeric superiority.
- Necrons: Massively superior to Imperial equivalents, a Necron fleet 1/4 the numeric size of an Imperial one and composed of lighter ship classes can expect to achieve a crushing victory in a direct confrontation in a matter of minutes. Even lighter ship classes possess sufficient offensive capabilities to overwhelm the defenses of even some of the largest Imperial capital ships (three Raider class Necron vessels gutted an Imperial Grand Cruiser in a single pass).
Advantage: Necrons.

I could go on and on and on about tactical teleportation, temporal manipulation, dimensional phasing, stable wormholes used as troop transports, or committing acts such as toppling moons from their orbit or extinguishing stars as planetary siege tactics, but the general trend seems rather clear...

Just drop the issue.

Eldar are not OP.
Only Wave Serpent spam is.

Wraithknights are OP. At the cost of a landraider they are vastly superior in every way, movement, shooting, assault. They fill a weak spot in the Eldar codex, causing them to have almost none that I can recall. Waveserpents have already been discussed. The Eldar and Tau codi are unbalanced in comparison to other codex at this point in time. I would almost put daemons up there with them but they are assault, which everyone agrees is not in favour this addition and they have access to 2++ reroll able, which is now being banned/nerfed in major competitive tournaments.

 ScabiusBile wrote:
Wraithknights are OP. At the cost of a landraider they are vastly superior in every way, movement, shooting, assault. They fill a weak spot in the Eldar codex, causing them to have almost none that I can recall. Waveserpents have already been discussed. The Eldar and Tau codi are unbalanced in comparison to other codex at this point in time. I would almost put daemons up there with them but they are assault, which everyone agrees is not in favour this addition and they have access to 2++ reroll able, which is now being banned/nerfed in major competitive tournaments.

QFT.

The Wraithknight is stupendously powerful for its point cost- T8 6W Sv3+ makes it possibly THE most durable non-superheavy model in the game sans (possibly) those with re-rollable 2++ save shenanigans, S10 makes it overpowering against other MCs in CC, and slapping two S10 AP1 guns that remove from game on a roll of 6 on top of it makes it one of the most powerful in terms of firepower as well.

The S10 thing really boggles the mind though- Even some GMCs don't get that high a strength score in their statline...

Compared it to the Riptide with its 2+ Armour and turbo Invulnerable Save of 3+ not convinced that the WK is better or indeed OP. Poison is much more effective against armour 3+.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Compared it to the Riptide with its 2+ Armour and turbo Invulnerable Save of 3+ not convinced that the WK is better or indeed OP. Poison is much more effective against armour 3+.

How many poisoned AP3 weapons do you know? I sure don't (though admittedly I'm not very familiar with the DE codex).

Also, if the only hard counter to that thing is in the DE codex then it's not much of an answer...

 Mr Morden wrote:
Compared it to the Riptide with its 2+ Armour and turbo Invulnerable Save of 3+ not convinced that the WK is better or indeed OP. Poison is much more effective against armour 3+.

I disagree, the riptide is only t6 that over heats and takes a wound more often than you would think. It actually has a decreased stat line across the board and mono v mono the wraithknight would win hands down every time. But this thread isn't for comparing the 2, sorry back on topic!

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Okay. Legal lists from Eldar are OP. How this is functionally different from "Eldar are OP" I don't understand. Pseudo rending and scatterlasers are OP on their own.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Howling Banshees are pretty bad sadly?

re Riptides - loosing the odd wound to overcharge (even if they don;t save it on FNP) is nothing when you get the same save as Storm Shields. They are undercosted for what they do and their sheer durability..

re Serpents - the problem is they are way way too good for thier cost and are used as well defended (AV 12, jink, holof fields etc etc) artillery/AA/Anti-tank units - not the transports they are supposed to be. They outshine all other transport choices and lastly to make matters worse they are dedicated transports rather than HC choices which is effectively what they have become.

I agree that Banshees need a little help, but to pretend that they are the least useful units in the game?

Pyrovores are a contender. Possessed are contenders, as are Ripper Swarms and Mandrakes. Plenty of units would *kill* to be a fast, AP-3 wielding dude at their cost.
That isn't to say that they are good, just that they are so far beyond the true players that it comes off as a bit delusional to think that Eldar have been subjected to an unfair cruelty in receiving a dud unit.

It's really just the Serpent Sheild's shooting that's gamebreaking. The jetseer council is also OP, but at about the same OP level as many other problems. WKnights are a little on the strong side too. While people complain about everything else too, we generally pay for all our toys.

About half the threads in Proposed Rules mention merging the Shield (my favorite is to treat the range as a typo - 6" on the sheild's shooting instead of 60" seems like it would fix everything)...

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Guardian Storm.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Guardian Storm.

Daemonhosts scoff at your overpowered Storm Guardians.

My problem is their spoiled for choices. Need a dedicated assault unit? Choose from Harlequins, Banshees, Scorpions or storm gaurdians. Monstrous creature? There's 3! Wildly OP tanks? Well, there's only one. But you can take a dozen of them! Bwahahahaha!

Space Marine codex?!?! No-monstrous creature-for-you! You, you take uh duh Centurion. They real ugly. You like. Is good.

ps, we only get 2 mc not 3. And the rending thing is sacrificing defense for offense for most of our units. Scatterlaser is only effective on a few different platforms. Rending is strong is you don't consider the range is 12-18" max.

 Slayer222 wrote:
ps, we only get 2 mc not 3. And the rending thing is sacrificing defense for offense for most of our units. Scatterlaser is only effective on a few different platforms. Rending is strong is you don't consider the range is 12-18" max.

I'm not buying this. The Eldar have cut too many lists to pieces. Your defenses are certainly fine against most marine lists, because marines have crap damage output.

 Slayer222 wrote:
ps, we only get 2 mc not 3. And the rending thing is sacrificing defense for offense for most of our units. Scatterlaser is only effective on a few different platforms. Rending is strong is you don't consider the range is 12-18" max.

And of couse one of the vechilces that carries the L/R version of these is the Cheese Serpent..................

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

^^ This, a thousand times this.

Wraith Lord, Wraith Knight &...(drum roll)...Kaela Mensha Mo'Frack'n Khaine!

PS. Shouldn't the wraithLORD be better than the wraithKNIGHT?

The scatter laser is good on every platform because 36" 4 shot S6 is just awesome. Come play Imperials and experience our crap heavy weapons for a while.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

^^ This, a thousand times this.

One its not though is it - most other Codexes can't match it.

Two - why is hvaing some OP units that are a auto select better than having a choice of a variety good units....unless you just want to win at all costs

I love balanced codex's but the eldar one is atleast half decent. I didn't want another helldrake but it happened and as long as i see Helldrake spam i will see serpent spam.
My lists are 3 jet bikes, 2 da with 2 serpents, 2 rangers, Fire dragons with serpent, 2 fire prism, war walkersx3, 2 crimson hunters, and a laughing autarch. Nothing is too spammes and is is themed.
The only change i would make would probable be the war walkers but it is in the list until i decide what is better/ i want to put into my list more. It is middle competitive uses a few units with minimal spam. And is friendly and middle of the road list. Eldar codex can make fun medium lists but in competitive settings with win at all caust players they will always find a way to exploit codecies. I find tau are better than eldar, then its eldar, unless imperial guards or necrons get cheese with the air.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who cares if they are? The type of people who play eldar (the race that failed) are over confident just like their army, so you can beat them by out smarting their arrogance anyway heheh

You do realize some people played eldar for the aesthetic and theme of the army. I started collecting the models in 3rd edition and started playing at the end of 4th start of 5th. At times they were hard to play, and sometimes they were good. But none the less we stick to our armies. People who jump the bandwagon and go for the most op army are idiots but not all eldar players are the type of people you describe.I take a max of 3 serpents because my army for transportation needs them,( 2 da+FD) however i don't spam them like the people who want to auto win, and i used to run and still do a mostly bieltan army.(stupid gw for not making autarches allowing 2 as troops) But the fluff is pretty good and once all the codexies are up for 6th, i hope that 7th does a better job of balancing both internal and externally to the codex.

Martel732 wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

This is only important if you are considering a competitive environment like a tournament. Otherwise, you should be forging a narrative.

Cheers!

I have never once played a "forge the narrative" game in 20 years of 40K. I didn't know this GW drivel ever happened until I got on here.

Where's the narrative that the Eldar are supposed to lose once in a while?

/sarcasm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

I meant as regards playability and optional lists.

Cheers.