Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I think looking solely at tournament results skew the perception of a given army's power level. Tournament winning lists generally adhere to the select few efficient power builds for each army, so if one army has a single build that is grossly OP, it might have more success than a army that has a number of power builds that are just highly OP. To me, it becomes far more clear from a more casual perspective.

To beat a casual Eldar list, many armies often have to resort to tournament style builds to have a real chance. Does a casual Chaos Marine list really stand a chance against an army that can spam psuedo-rending shooting with its basic troops, as well as loads of other shooting AP2 without even trying? What about a single unit of wraithguard with d-scythes running around in a WS? The carnage that single unit can cause to a power-armour army all by itself is incredible, and can be very difficult to counter for these armies. A single wraithknight can swing a casual game so far out of whack, that its over by turn 3. My group has one Eldar player in the mix, and he doesn't even try to put out a tournament worthy list, and we all struggle to even keep in the running (Marines, Chaos Marines, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Chaos Daemons make up the other armies in our group).

The Eldar codex itself is masterfully done when it comes to internal balance and synergy. Just about EVERYTHING has a use and has an appropriate points cost (for the most part anyway), even the less popular units such as Swooping Hawks and Fire Prisms. The only one that is less than great are Banshees. I put them in the same boat as Khorne Bloodletters, useful in certain situations, really good as a backline counter-attack unit, but overall, there are better ways to spend the points. The only other codex that comes close when it comes to internal balance and synergy is Chaos Daemons, and even that book has its share of clunkers.

If you have other statistics, I'd love to see them. Anecdotes don't really mean much in the face of statistics.

You mean synergy of the Seerstar with the DE codex ?

Because I can't quite see any synergy in the Eldar codex... I may have it all wrong, but currently the only synergy that seems to be visible is: "overload their high STR/low AP weapons", which is not a synergy.

A single wraithknight is not a problem for an army that has decent anti tank capabilities, but from reading you, it appears noone in your group has that.

While the struggling for Chaos Marines and Space Wolves is expected, the other three should have no problem at all. Maybe your vision of a casual list is more problematic to some armies than others.

There are lies, damned lies and Statistics which can be twisted as is the case here to tell the story you want.

 Mr Morden wrote:
There are lies, damned lies and Statistics which can be twisted as is the case here to tell the story you want.

98% of statistics are made up on the spot .

I hosted a three-way player game between myself, Ryan and Alistar yesterday. It was a very relaxed affair and we had a curry at lunchtime. I decided to play my Eldar for a change and took a couple of Wave Serpents and a Falcon, along with several Guardian squads to theme it as a Black Guardian Ulthwe army, supported by a couple of small Aspect Warrior squads and a pair of War Walkers. Against this was a mechanised Guard army that was very aggressive and a Blood Angels army with a mixture of different units. The game confirmed everything anyone has ever said about Wave Serpents being overpowered and being too good. The ability to Jink, combined with the Serpent Shield makes them nearly impossible to kill apart from simply wrecking them by reducing them to zero hull points.

form our clubs forum today - this is what everyone apart from the most die hard WS defenders say...............

Hulling out vehicles, in 7th, should become familiar to most reasonable players. This familiarity will help them against the (OP) Serpent, at least. Too many players seem to think that if it can't be exploded easily, it can't be killed.

Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

So the best weapon aginst a Cheese Serpent is another one? What do you use when not spamming Wave Serpents?

Tactics - hmm - always easier when you have better weapons and equipment............... why is that people keep saying the the Av 12 3HP WS is an easy kill - compared to what - a Land Raider in cover? Which people pay a premium for

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

Right... Please refresh my memory, which armies have high strength ignores cover shooting again?

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

How many armies have access to Str 7 + Ignore cover? Tau with Marker Lights, Other Serpents, Guard with Orders? Do tell me, what do my Dark Eldar do? What do Space Marines do? Why is it that in these discussions everyone just...assumes that everyone plays either Tau, Eldar, Necrons or Daemons and if you don't then you don't have the 'right' to attempt to play competitively? I have said it before and i will stick to it, in Pick up games, if someone has more then 2 Wave Serpents, i won't play them. Dark Eldar simply have no counter to them (If you say ''ally in Eldar'' i will cut you...) and they single handedly can destroy my entire army, even when Snap Firing! But in a tournament, i don't have to the choice to not play Wave Serpent Spam, which is ever so popular. Why should i auto-lose a match simply because the opponent has 3 units which can stomp my entire army? How can you say that ''the rest is tactics'' when nothing in my army can scratch them?

 Galorian wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

Right... Please refresh my memory, which armies have high strength ignores cover shooting again?

Hmm if iirc its Eldar!

and IG, then Tau!

Sororitas do as well - Dominions with Melta guns - course they have to get near to the superfast Wave Serpents

but remember folks its not that the WS is broken - we are all just bad players..............not like those tactical geniuses that use them - why I bet they are soo good they could even win games, wthout..... gasp..... using Wave Serpents.

Not like the rest of the smucks who also play lesser armies.............

Why is it that in these discussions everyone just...assumes that everyone plays either Tau, Eldar, Necrons or Daemons

cos the more powerful the army - the more "tactical" and "skilled" you are

 Mr Morden wrote:
So the best weapon aginst a Cheese Serpent is another one? What do you use when not spamming Wave Serpents?

Tactics - hmm - always easier when you have better weapons and equipment............... why is that people keep saying the the Av 12 3HP WS is an easy kill - compared to what - a Land Raider in cover? Which people pay a premium for

I have only spammed my Wave serpents twice honestly. I only usually run 3 or 4 in my tournament list. Spamming them is really running 6+, for example at TempleCon there was someone there with 8 Wave Serpents. Besides that, I'm talking about a tournament list, where you would be using your best tools. I would never run all 6 of mine in a friendly game unless we were prepping for a tourney.

Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino. Not to mention Hand to hand combat will ruin a serpent, but I suppose everyone will just say that ever happens.

 Galorian wrote:


Right... Please refresh my memory, which armies have high strength ignores cover shooting again?

Off the top of my head, without research.... Tyranids (hive guard), Astra Militarum, Tau (missile sides come to mind), and anyone with access to Divination - I have also been hull pointed to death by thunderfire cannons, and centurions (of course now they don't ignore cover). Even without ignores cover, there are many ways to get a multitude of firepower onto a serpent. I never seem to make my cover saves on the damn things anyway. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sororitas do as well - Dominions with Melta guns - course they have to get near to the superfast Wave Serpents

but remember folks its not that the WS is broken - we are all just bad players..............not like those tactical geniuses that use them - why I bet they are soo good they could even win games, wthout..... gasp..... using Wave Serpents.

Not like the rest of the smucks who also play lesser armies.............

Why is it that in these discussions everyone just...assumes that everyone plays either Tau, Eldar, Necrons or Daemons

cos the more powerful the army - the more "tactical" and "skilled" you are

Wow, someone seems bitter. I'm not sure if this was focused on me specifically, but I have won many games without Wave Serpents. My comment on Tactics was more a comment on learning how to out play your opponent. Nothing is more frustrating than when someone walks up to a table and has the cheddar smeared all over his list. i have had those games too, Ovesa-Star comes to mind, As well as the screamerstar. I completely understand where you are coming from, but most times, when a player feels he has a killer list, he plays sloppy. Making simple mistakes and you can make him pay for it. Of course these conversations are hard to have over the internet, because everything seems snarky.

What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

 Gangrel767 wrote:


Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino.

While true, IG tanks and rhino's can't sport a 3+ cover save, in the open, whenever they want, even when immobilized, on top of effectively ignoring pen's

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:


Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino.

While true, IG tanks and rhino's can't sport a 3+ cover save, in the open, whenever they want, even when immobilized, on top of effectively ignoring pen's

Agreed, but if you are able to ignore cover, and the serpent player has shot his shield....

Besides, you shouldn't be focusing on trying to get a penetrating hit, you should be focusing on hull pointing it down.

Regardless, I'm not here to argue. I just know that I have been playing my lists for a long time and I have serpents go down all the time. Maybe it is purely my inability to roll a 3+ when I need it... :p

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:


Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino.

While true, IG tanks and rhino's can't sport a 3+ cover save, in the open, whenever they want, even when immobilized, on top of effectively ignoring pen's

Agreed, but if you are able to ignore cover, and the serpent player has shot his shield....

Thats several Ifs - as opposed to the Wave Serpent who just shoots as it ignores cover and should devestate its opposite numbers

 Gangrel767 wrote:
What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

Then please help me, How do Dark Eldar counter Wave Serpents? They sit at the Nadir of of our Dark Lances effectiveness for points (We are good vs AV 13/14 due to the extra points those pay for extra AV we don't care about, and good against AV 10/11 due to low AP and medium/high strength), and against an Average Wave Serpent who is jinking (They have no reason not to, they can destroy my vehicles even when Jinking...) I need to cause 3 hull points, which glance on 4's, so i need 6 hits, except 3+ Jink means i need 18 hits, so assuming i missed 1/3 that means i need 27 Dark Lance shots to hull point out a single Wave Serpent. Unless my math is really, really off, can you tell me with a straight face that isn't ridiculous? Haywire, forget it. How is that AV 10 2 HP Venom gonna get those Wyches to it? They aren't. Heat Lance? 2 Per unit and if i shoot i am not Blade Vaning. How do *I* counter Wave Serpents, because it seems to me they can counter my entire army. Also, if you suggest ally in Eldar like i think you will, i will be most displeased...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

Then please help me, How do Dark Eldar counter Wave Serpents? They sit at the Nadir of of our Dark Lances effectiveness for points (We are good vs AV 13/14 due to the extra points those pay for extra AV we don't care about, and good against AV 10/11 due to low AP and medium/high strength), and against an Average Wave Serpent who is jinking (They have no reason not to, they can destroy my vehicles even when Jinking...) I need to cause 3 hull points, which glance on 4's, so i need 6 hits, except 3+ Jink means i need 18 hits, so assuming i missed 1/3 that means i need 27 Dark Lance shots to hull point out a single Wave Serpent. Unless my math is really, really off, can you tell me with a straight face that isn't ridiculous? Haywire, forget it. How is that AV 10 2 HP Venom gonna get those Wyches to it? They aren't. Heat Lance? 2 Per unit and if i shoot i am not Blade Vaning. How do *I* counter Wave Serpents, because it seems to me they can counter my entire army. Also, if you suggest ally in Eldar like i think you will, i will be most displeased...

Easy- Ally Tau!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

Then please help me, How do Dark Eldar counter Wave Serpents? They sit at the Nadir of of our Dark Lances effectiveness for points (We are good vs AV 13/14 due to the extra points those pay for extra AV we don't care about, and good against AV 10/11 due to low AP and medium/high strength), and against an Average Wave Serpent who is jinking (They have no reason not to, they can destroy my vehicles even when Jinking...) I need to cause 3 hull points, which glance on 4's, so i need 6 hits, except 3+ Jink means i need 18 hits, so assuming i missed 1/3 that means i need 27 Dark Lance shots to hull point out a single Wave Serpent. Unless my math is really, really off, can you tell me with a straight face that isn't ridiculous? Haywire, forget it. How is that AV 10 2 HP Venom gonna get those Wyches to it? They aren't. Heat Lance? 2 Per unit and if i shoot i am not Blade Vaning. How do *I* counter Wave Serpents, because it seems to me they can counter my entire army. Also, if you suggest ally in Eldar like i think you will, i will be most displeased...

Sure, I'll PM you, I don't want to derail the thread too much.