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EmpNortonII wrote:


By the rules, Minotaurs have Fearless, which prevents them from doing things like failing a morale roll to leave combat with something that cannot damage in CC or going to ground. Stupid, no... but they are exploitable.

As a side note, in close combat, PE will be balanced out by the Carcharodon tendency to give every Tac squad a bolter, bolt pistol, AND an additional close combat weapon. If the Carcharodons are the ones to get the charge off, Furious Charge will ensure they win it... and of course, the widespread use of drop pods helps ensure they get the first shots off as well.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and stop you right there. You're saying rules = fluff, which is a no no... in no way, in a Space Marine on Space Marine engagement, is fearless going to be a hindrance to the Minotaurs. They're not dumb, so "exploiting" it is fairly out of the question, especially if they're commanded by Moloc, but what are the odds of that when the entire Chapter is deployed?
Another advantage for the Minotaurs is that they are used to fighting as an entire chapter, and against other Space Marines. The open field is the optimum arena you could give the Minotaurs, whereas an open field will be much harder for the Carcharadons to use to their advantage... no point trying to sneak if the enemy can see you from 20 miles away.
The Minotaurs are fighting their preferred enemy, in their preferred terrain, in their preferred method of war. Am I saying the Carcharadons would just flop over and die? No, of course not. Both chapters are vicious, ruthless paragons of Space Marine ideals. Both would reap a bloody toll on the other. But I believe the Minotaurs would be the ones left standing in the end.

Now, let's just throw in one thousand World Eaters as well, put all three contestants in a giant arena and watch the show.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Now, let's just throw in one thousand World Eaters as well, put all three contestants in a giant arena and watch the show.

First it was open field so that Minotaurs had the advantage.
Next it's arena, so that World Eaters have the advantage.

Why not give the Carcharodons the advantage? Or stop giving any party an advantage.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Now, let's just throw in one thousand World Eaters as well, put all three contestants in a giant arena and watch the show.

First it was open field so that Minotaurs had the advantage.
Next it's arena, so that World Eaters have the advantage.

Why not give the Carcharodons the advantage? Or stop giving any party an advantage.

I was not thinking about advantages, just... Max carnage.

If all three of them got together, they'd form the Angry Marines.

The baby Flesh Tearers tire each other out and Daddy Seth has to tuck them into bed.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Moloc, I think. Storm shield, EW, S6 Ap2 in melee and preferred enemy.

He is more expensive though.

Relic blades are AP3, which is how Tyberos wins. His 2+ save, +2 Str (chainfish) and extra attack beats out Moloc's 3++ and PE.

By the mathhammer, Tyberos inflicts, on average, .556 wounds per round on Moloc. Moloc inflicts, on average, .284 wounds per round.

Tyberos wins, by virtue of superior weaponry.

EmpNortonII wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Moloc, I think. Storm shield, EW, S6 Ap2 in melee and preferred enemy.

He is more expensive though.

Relic blades are AP3, which is how Tyberos wins. His 2+ save, +2 Str (chainfish) and extra attack beats out Moloc's 3++ and PE.

By the mathhammer, Tyberos inflicts, on average, .556 wounds per round on Moloc. Moloc inflicts, on average, .284 wounds per round.

Tyberos wins, by virtue of superior weaponry.

I don't know about you, but it looks very AP2 to me...

Mind you, Tyberos gains PE as well since Moloc is infantry.

 Psienesis wrote:

"The Sigard system was the first to taste the wrath and fury of the grey-clad Space Marines, and the Carcharadon fleet broke out of Warp directly above the system on the galactic plane, perilously close to Sigard's swollen and violent sun. Using its solar flares as a shield, the fleet split up its dozens of striking forces and devastated the numerous belt-colonies, ship-clans, and asteroid-citadels of the Sigard system, destroying in mere days and weeks what had taken millenia to build and had withstood the ravages of alien and renegade alike." it is widely shown in 40k written material that entering or exiting the Warp anywhere but the outer edges of a gravity well is a bad idea... but the Carcharodons were capable of leaving Warp close enough to the sun to be masked by solar flares without, apparently, losing any vessels, because the Navigators on Shark ships are just that good. In a space engagement, the Carcharodons will be able to defeat the Minotaurs given a parity of vessels, because man for man, they're better at fighting in space. Given the above, it is not inconceivable that 1) if the Sharks arrived first, they could enter the Warp and exit it behind the Minotaur fleet and pound it into oblivion before the Minotaurs could get most of their guns brought to bear or 2) the Sharks could use the same tactic they did at Sigard if the Minotaurs arrived first.

Let me retell this story when the protagonists don't have Plot Armor:

Tales of Fails wrote:The Sigard system would have been the first to taste the wrath and fury of the grey-clad Space Marines, had the Carcharadon fleet not attempted to break out of Warp directly above the system on the galactic plane, instead leaving the Warp within Sigard's swollen and violent sun.

... just because they pull off a ballsy move once does not mean they make it a matter of SOP.

Same thing with the Teleportarium. It might be accurate, but that doesn't mean that every twentieth time they use it, whatever goes in never comes out again.

Plot armor is when "For some reason (and not even an explicit ability), just being the main character or on his team protects you from death, serious wounds, and generally any sort of harm until dramatically appropriate."

The Carcharodons are a fleet-based Chapter that has been around for thousands of years with little to no help from the Imperium proper. Yeah, their Navigators are going to be really good or really dead. Without plot armor, they would have simply dropped out of Warp at the system's edge and did the exact same thing they did.

On the other hand, the entire Minotaurs Chapter should have ended in the Orphean War- the repeated incidents where they 'just barely' managed to do several things that just barely led to the conclusion they got is a sign of plot armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

EmpNortonII wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Moloc, I think. Storm shield, EW, S6 Ap2 in melee and preferred enemy.

He is more expensive though.

Relic blades are AP3, which is how Tyberos wins. His 2+ save, +2 Str (chainfish) and extra attack beats out Moloc's 3++ and PE.

By the mathhammer, Tyberos inflicts, on average, .556 wounds per round on Moloc. Moloc inflicts, on average, .284 wounds per round.

Tyberos wins, by virtue of superior weaponry.

Spoiler:

I don't know about you, but it looks very AP2 to me...

Mind you, Tyberos gains PE as well since Moloc is infantry.

I have IA 10. Didn't see the re-write (doesn't seem fair Moloc improved drastically for the same points while several other characters did not- now, THAT is plot armor)... though, didn't Moloc die in IA 12?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liquidjoshi wrote:

EmpNortonII wrote:


By the rules, Minotaurs have Fearless, which prevents them from doing things like failing a morale roll to leave combat with something that cannot damage in CC or going to ground. Stupid, no... but they are exploitable.

As a side note, in close combat, PE will be balanced out by the Carcharodon tendency to give every Tac squad a bolter, bolt pistol, AND an additional close combat weapon. If the Carcharodons are the ones to get the charge off, Furious Charge will ensure they win it... and of course, the widespread use of drop pods helps ensure they get the first shots off as well.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and stop you right there. You're saying rules = fluff, which is a no no... in no way, in a Space Marine on Space Marine engagement, is fearless going to be a hindrance to the Minotaurs. They're not dumb, so "exploiting" it is fairly out of the question, especially if they're commanded by Moloc, but what are the odds of that when the entire Chapter is deployed?
Another advantage for the Minotaurs is that they are used to fighting as an entire chapter, and against other Space Marines. The open field is the optimum arena you could give the Minotaurs, whereas an open field will be much harder for the Carcharadons to use to their advantage... no point trying to sneak if the enemy can see you from 20 miles away.
The Minotaurs are fighting their preferred enemy, in their preferred terrain, in their preferred method of war. Am I saying the Carcharadons would just flop over and die? No, of course not. Both chapters are vicious, ruthless paragons of Space Marine ideals. Both would reap a bloody toll on the other. But I believe the Minotaurs would be the ones left standing in the end.

The Minotaurs did bleed themselves dry fighting the Lamentors- they were relegated to patrol duty after that incident... and they DO have a reputation for ignoring battle-plans and simply charging head-first at the enemy. Yes, that means they might not take cover when an orbital bombardment targets a command squad because they're too busy charging forward or trying to wail away on an Ironclad dreadnought when you can't crack its plating. The fluff supports the rule... and the rule, as it turns out, does play into fluff.

Meanwhile, the Carcharodons managed the same feat- knocking a Chapter out of the war- without sustaining massive losses.

... and an open field means no cover when the Sharks slam down in drop pods and open up with their first salvo.

... and I'll point out that no one knows whether or not the Carcharodons are codex-compliant enough to have 1,000 or fewer Marines. Tyberos was a Force Commander... and that may be it. They may have arrived with their full strength in Badab... or there may be another 12+ companies of them out in the dark somewhere. Given how bad they mauled Abaddon in the 7th Crusade, I'd say they've either had points where they've operated as an entire Chapter, or their entire Chapter is big enough that the Red Wake commanded less than half their strength.

The Lexicanum article states the Minotaurs were considered the preeminent force until the Sharks turned up. That speaks volumes about close combat battle ability

The reason his blade 'improved' is because IA10 is written for fifth edition. In fifth edition, Relic Blades were AP2.

Fifth edition Moloc with his IA10 statline and sixth edition Moloc with his new statline are functionally identical.

In terms of the space battle the Carcharodons would win hands down essentially every time.

'Rule the skies and you rule the battle'
- Paraphrased from some guy

As soon as the Minotaurs fleet is gone, so too are their terminators, their air support, their ability to resupply, their means of transport and escape, all of their drop pods, their communication etc. etc. etc. The ground battle is over as soon as the war in space is won.
Also the Minotaurs are gold and easy to shoot in the dark.