Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wolf lords are captain equivalents, so W3.
Chaos Lords should have the option for A4/W4 since some of them are CM equivalents. Grand Masters should get a flat A4/W4.

No, Wolf Lords should be 3 wounds. I'd be happy enough to see Logan being 4 wounds, though he's pretty tanky already, or TWC giving +1 wound.

 Lobukia wrote:
Seriously. SW had a long run at the top of the PA heap. You're at the end of the cycle and still very very good. Your Wolf Lords are Captains, and still have comparable stats and abilities. Comparing apples to apples, you have a 10% tax SM don't. Boohoo. Since 2009, you've had the better book. 4+ years!!! you can't take 1 year only being arguable as good as us as opposed to way better?! Nope, no WAAC power gamers here.

Excellent, now I see the light! You can't actually argue that the Space Wolf codex is overpowered, so you say we *used* to be better and now I'm whining.
Not that it matters, but I started playing Space Wolves less than a year ago, because I like their fluff. My army lists usually include a Thunderwolf Deathstar, Canis Wolfborn, and Bjorn the Fell-Handed because I like the models and they're fun to play with. My other two armies are Orks and Sisters of Battle, both of which are nowhere near the top of the power creep, and haven't been since long before I started playing.

Of course, since I thought one model was somewhat underpowered for his points cost, and wondered if anyone else agreed, I'm clearly a whiney WAAC Power Gamer.


As a sidenote, how does the fluff of 'Being Captains' have anything at all to do with rules? My argument is that for the same costs in the same role, Wolf Lords should be as good. Or, they shouldn't be the same cost. Take your pick. Being a 'Captain equivalent' in fluff is irrelevant when the rules make him a Chapter Master equivalent.

As has been mentioned several times already, the Wolf Lord is a Captain-equivalent and so should have Captain stats. The fact that he has 4 Attacks is already exceptional and frankly sticks out when Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers etc. do not.

Your Chapter Master is Logan and so I both expect and support him receiving a Chapter Masters 4/4 stats when you get a reboot.

While we are on the subject I would also like to see Chaos Lords gaining the option for 4/4, as well as Huron Blackheart. Even if it is purchased through upgrades rather than as a unit (See Daemonic Essence from 3.5).

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eternal Warrior: We have Two Characters with EW and one more they can buy it, along with a W2 Model that if you don’t give a Storm Shield Two along wit 2 Wolves is going get gunned down in 6”-12” from his starting position. And it is not Cheep; it cost more than one of our Terminators

Saga of the Bear

 Anpu42 wrote:

Scouts: Our Scouts are in a crowded Elite Slot.

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Terminators: We can take Drop Pods, with 5 Terminators in them and if we want to take a HQ we loose the ability to take a Special Weapons. Thunder Hammer Storm Shield cost more than 60 points.

Alright, got me here. One disadvantage.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Arjac: Cost more than a Fully Kitted out Venerable Dreadnaught.

Also throws a hammer that is as strong as a Hammerhead Rail Gun. Arjac would likely crush a Venerable Dreadnought in combat.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Björn: Dead with three Glances

Just like every other dreadnought in the game? Every single one?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Grey Hunters: Have to move to Shoot and entrenched Target. If we want Ld 9 and a Transport we give up the second Special Weapon and an Elite Slot.

I don't understand the first point (I can't parse your sentence). As for the second, in trade for that you gain counter-attack, the ability to take two special weapons at all (marines get one special and one heavy, which is awkward). And wolf guard are a wonderful unit, and have the capability to bring a cyclone missile launcher or assault cannon to support their squads. Boo hoo, you can't bring another plasma gun.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Long Fangs: No Anti-Air, No Meat Shields, The choice of losing my Split Fire or a Heavy Weapon.

Except that you HAVE split fire. And if you had meat shields, you wouldn't take them anyways. No one does at 14 points per model - why would you at 15?

 Anpu42 wrote:

What do we not have:
>No Effective Anti-Aircraft without Allies

Hyperios Air Defense Launcher, Storm Eagle Assault Gunship, Fire Raptor Gunship, Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Feel No Pain

You also don't have pretty much the entire Special Rules section too. You could put "don't have blind, don't have hit and run, don't have missile lock, don't have vector strike...". Not everyone gets everything.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Combat Squads

Instead you get counter-attack and an extra Special Weapon.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No FOC Free Units

Dedicated Transports

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Flying Transports

Storm Eagle Assault Gunship

I believe Wolf Lords are intended to be Captain-equivalents in game mechanic terms in addition to fluff terms. C:SM has named Chapter Masters and an unnamed Chapter Master. It was like that in the last book, too. Other loyalist MEQ books have named Chapter Masters. (Azrael, Dante, Draigo, Logan, Seth*), but no generic ones. GW has apparently decided that loyalist** Chapter Master equivalents get 4 Wounds now, so by that logic Logan should get 4W in the next update, because he's suppose to be the Chapter Master-equivalent HQ choice for SW. Wolf Lords should get a small points reduction to bring them in line with other MEQ's captains, but they are certainly not intended to be Chapter-master strength (that's Logan's job)--however just like a Captain (or Chaos Lord) you can certainly make a Wolf Lord who costs much more than a kitted-out Chapter Master.

(*I think Seth is a Chapter Master for a BA successor...not entirely sure, though.)

(**I think that Daemon Princes are intended to be CSM's 'Chapter Master' in relation to Chaos Lords...but I think that CSM ought to have some sort of true Chapter Master-type HQ. Also, apparently somebody misplaced one of Huron's Wounds when they put him back together after Badab.)

As an aside I play Space Wolves (among many others) and I'm fairly certain that it's still pretty much top dog (heh) as far as MEQ codices are concerned--only Grav-spamming Bikers are scarier, I think. They don't really need much of a buff relative to the others. Some in-codex Skyfire would be nice. But that's about it.

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

Those don't realy matter when they can't charge out of OBEL . They were ok in 5th , right now people take scouts to either get cheap troops or spam cheap sniper rifles to kill heralds , etherals in units etc SW scouts cost more then normal scouts and can't double as objective grabers . They could have WS 10 and they would still be bad.

Makumba wrote:

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

Those don't realy matter when they can't charge out of OBEL . They were ok in 5th , right now people take scouts to either get cheap troops or spam cheap sniper rifles to kill heralds , etherals in units etc SW scouts cost more then normal scouts and can't double as objective grabers . They could have WS 10 and they would still be bad.

Think what you want, but they're of course going to cost more, and it's not unreasonable to see such skilled troops in the elites slot.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eternal Warrior: We have Two Characters with EW and one more they can buy it, along with a W2 Model that if you don’t give a Storm Shield Two along wit 2 Wolves is going get gunned down in 6”-12” from his starting position. And it is not Cheep; it cost more than one of our Terminators

Saga of the Bear

I believe that's the "one more that can buy it". Only Wolf Lords can take Eternal Warrior and it costs 35pts, compared to a Terminator with SB and PW which costs only 33pts.

Okay, unit1166, let's go down your list of corrections:
Saga of the Bear - He already said you could by Eternal Warrior on one model. Just like Space Marines can.

Our scouts are better, yes.They're also 4 points more per model, without upgrades.

The terminator thing is indeed a disadvantage.

Arjac's weapon has 6" range, and any decent firepower mows him down. Compared to most dedicated CC units, he's awful at 185 points.

Yes, Bjorn is indeed just as fragile as every other dreadnaught in the game. It's a shame he costs almost 300 points.

I also can't parse the sentance about entrenching either. However, it's fair to say that counter-assault, acute senses, and our grey hunters are an even trade for Chapter Tactics.

I agree that Long Fangs are still good without body shields.

Every time you use Forge World to argue that Space Wolves are good, I cringe. My LGS bars Forge World. A lot of them do. Plus, it doesn't mean that the codex itself is any good.

Another comparison to Chapter Tactics with combat squads...

Really? You're just being contrary with the Dedicated Transports thing.

More cringing about Forge World.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, unit1166, let's go down your list of corrections:
Saga of the Bear - He already said you could by Eternal Warrior on one model. Just like Space Marines can.

Our scouts are better, yes.They're also 4 points more per model, without upgrades.

The terminator thing is indeed a disadvantage.

Arjac's weapon has 6" range, and any decent firepower mows him down. Compared to most dedicated CC units, he's awful at 185 points.

Yes, Bjorn is indeed just as fragile as every other dreadnaught in the game. It's a shame he costs almost 300 points.

I also can't parse the sentance about entrenching either. However, it's fair to say that counter-assault, acute senses, and our grey hunters are an even trade for Chapter Tactics.

I agree that Long Fangs are still good without body shields.

Every time you use Forge World to argue that Space Wolves are good, I cringe. My LGS bars Forge World. A lot of them do. Plus, it doesn't mean that the codex itself is any good.

Another comparison to Chapter Tactics with combat squads...

Really? You're just being contrary with the Dedicated Transports thing.

More cringing about Forge World.

I see what you are saying. Then we'll call it a wash, in terms of who can bring Eternal Warrior.

Your scouts are better and should cost more. Maybe not 4ppm more, but Storm Troopers should not be 2ppm more than Tactical Marines. Some things just are overpriced - it's unfortunate, but c'est la vie.

He's better than the dreadnought he was compared to. Most dedicated CC units will get gunned down in this edition, such is the fate of CC in 6th largely.

It is. It's also a shame the Rough Riders are 10 points per model, and that Storm Troopers are 16. Bjorn is overpriced, but he was in 5th too.

Regardless of local house-rules, there are air defense options for Space Wolves.

I am, but it's a stupid complaint - why does every army have to have some unit that ignores FOC? What does that really have to do with whether or not an army is good?

And again, if you ignore house-rules, the Space Wolves do have a flying assault transport.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, unit1166, let's go down your list of corrections:
Saga of the Bear - He already said you could by Eternal Warrior on one model. Just like Space Marines can.

Our scouts are better, yes.They're also 4 points more per model, without upgrades.

The terminator thing is indeed a disadvantage.

Arjac's weapon has 6" range, and any decent firepower mows him down. Compared to most dedicated CC units, he's awful at 185 points.

Yes, Bjorn is indeed just as fragile as every other dreadnaught in the game. It's a shame he costs almost 300 points.

I also can't parse the sentance about entrenching either. However, it's fair to say that counter-assault, acute senses, and our grey hunters are an even trade for Chapter Tactics.

I agree that Long Fangs are still good without body shields.

Every time you use Forge World to argue that Space Wolves are good, I cringe. My LGS bars Forge World. A lot of them do. Plus, it doesn't mean that the codex itself is any good.

Another comparison to Chapter Tactics with combat squads...

Really? You're just being contrary with the Dedicated Transports thing.

More cringing about Forge World.

I see what you are saying. Then we'll call it a wash, in terms of who can bring Eternal Warrior.

Your scouts are better and should cost more. Maybe not 4ppm more, but Storm Troopers should not be 2ppm more than Tactical Marines. Some things just are overpriced - it's unfortunate, but c'est la vie.

He's better than the dreadnought he was compared to. Most dedicated CC units will get gunned down in this edition, such is the fate of CC in 6th largely.

It is. It's also a shame the Rough Riders are 10 points per model, and that Storm Troopers are 16. Bjorn is overpriced, but he was in 5th too.

Regardless of local house-rules, there are air defense options for Space Wolves.

I am, but it's a stupid complaint - why does every army have to have some unit that ignores FOC? What does that really have to do with whether or not an army is good?

And again, if you ignore house-rules, the Space Wolves do have a flying assault transport.

But arguing that overpriced models are good is, simply put, really really silly. Old One Eye would be totally OP if he was 5 points. But he's not. Flyrants would be terrible if they cost 500 points. But they're not. You can't argue that overcosted models are good, just because other models are overcosted.

Bringing up Forge World... Even ignoring house rules, I don't want to buy a fifty dollar book to add something to my codex which it should have had already.

Waaaghpower wrote:

But arguing that overpriced models are good is, simply put, really really silly. Old One Eye would be totally OP if he was 5 points. But he's not. Flyrants would be terrible if they cost 500 points. But they're not. You can't argue that overcosted models are good, just because other models are overcosted.

Bringing up Forge World... Even ignoring house rules, I don't want to buy a fifty dollar book to add something to my codex which it should have had already.

I'm not really arguing that they're good. I'm arguing that they're no more intolerable than other things in other books that are overpriced. The Imperial Guard book is a great book, despite almost the entire Elites section never seeing play because of how overpriced they are. A few units, which may be over priced (Bjorn and Scouts) does not ruin the book, imo.

You think that your codex, despite being from the middle of 5th, should have had fliers and air defense as if it was a sixth edition book? And I'm sorry you don't want to spend an extra $50 on your army - I'd hate to see what you do when the new 'dex comes out.

a lot of the stuff Im hearing complained about here are simply artifacts of the Space wolves not getting their 6th edition codex yet. I'm sure when it comes out long fangs will be able to take flak missiles. and they'll have the Air Wolf or whatever GW names their flier.

in response to the actual question in the subject, Wolf Lords are "captains" the 4Ws is basicly a "chapter master" thing.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Last I checked, the ruling was that you could take one Chapter Relic per exchanged weapon... So, 2 Chapter Relics. I could be wrong on that one, but it's what I heard.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, and the Chapter Master is now also much cheaper.

Actually no, you may only replace 1 weapon with a Chapter Relic once.

You can, however, combine relics which do not use up your "1 weapon switch". Eg, you may have the Shield Eternal and the Armour Indominadus (or whatever that useless thing's called...)

Iranna.

Space Marines had aircraft before their update. Necrons have aircraft. Orks have aircraft. Guard have aircraft. Blood Angels have aircraft. Heck, Tyranids had a couple options before their update, and an entire (GW, not Forge World) book was released giving Aircraft to other armies.
And I don't mind dropping 50 bucks on my army, I mind dropping 50 bucks, just to get the rules for a handful of models (Which, being Forge World, will also cost an arm and a leg,) when every other army got the same perks for free.

Also, Anpu42 wasn't arguing that the codex was bad, he was just writing a retort to Lobukia's post saying all those things were OP.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Space Marines had aircraft before their update. Necrons have aircraft. Orks have aircraft. Guard have aircraft. Blood Angels have aircraft. Heck, Tyranids had a couple options before their update, and an entire (GW, not Forge World) book was released giving Aircraft to other armies.
And I don't mind dropping 50 bucks on my army, I mind dropping 50 bucks, just to get the rules for a handful of models (Which, being Forge World, will also cost an arm and a leg,) when every other army got the same perks for free.

Also, Anpu42 wasn't arguing that the codex was bad, he was just writing a retort to Lobukia's post saying all those things were OP.

SM did not have aircraft before their update, except through a digital-only (well, limited edition print) $33 book. Necrons were the end of 5th - they were basically a 6th edition codex. Orks got aircraft in a WD, and if you didn't get that WD, then you didn't get aircraft without buying a $33 supplement. Guard had fast skimmers that were totally not balanced to be fliers ever (although they made out positively in the deal). Blood Angels were the very first codex (other than the Guard) who got real aircraft, and they came out after Space Wolves. Tyranids had jump monstrous creatures, which (like Guard) happened to become flyers in 6th - they were not originally intended to do so when the codex was designed. And that $33 dollar book I am talking about is the same one.

As for price, that's true. But the other armies certainly do not get their models and rules for free, and my army is entirely Forge World (I play Armored Battlegroup). Whether or not to spend the money is your prerogative, but I will not accept complaints that SW do not have a flyer transport because people don't like spending money. By that logic, I don't have a flyer transport for my SM because I think $80 for the Storm Raven is ridiculous.

BrianDavion wrote:a lot of the stuff Im hearing complained about here are simply artifacts of the Space wolves not getting their 6th edition codex yet. I'm sure when it comes out long fangs will be able to take flak missiles. and they'll have the Air Wolf or whatever GW names their flier.

in response to the actual question in the subject, Wolf Lords are "captains" the 4Ws is basicly a "chapter master" thing.

Pretty much. GW are renown not updating things for ages even if given the opportunity. As a fellow SW player, I say toughen up and deal with it, it's the nature of 40k for every army that isn't Codex: Space Marines.

Unit1126PLL wrote:As for price, that's true. But the other armies certainly do not get their models and rules for free, and my army is entirely Forge World (I play Armored Battlegroup). Whether or not to spend the money is your prerogative, but I will not accept complaints that SW do not have a flyer transport because people don't like spending money. By that logic, I don't have a flyer transport for my SM because I think $80 for the Storm Raven is ridiculous.

There are many people who simply don't accept FW rules and models in a standard 40k game or do so begrudgingly. My old gaming group you wouldn't make any friends showing up with a FW army unless it was something like an awesomely painted DKOK army (because rule of cool outweighs all else ).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

There are many people who simply don't accept FW rules and models in a standard 40k game or do so begrudgingly. My old gaming group you wouldn't make any friends showing up with a FW army unless it was something like an awesomely painted DKOK army (because rule of cool outweighs all else ).

Regrettably, this is true. However, I do not believe it should be used in a discussion on a forum - after all, it would be like me saying "we houseruled difficult terrain to be 3+d3" as a counter-argument to someone's tactics post. House rules, for better or worse, are best kept in the house.

Steelmage99 wrote:
As long as an Ork Warboss only has three wounds as well, you will take your 3W and be bloody grateful.

This!

When Chaos Lords and Ork Warbosses go up to 4 wounds (or they get an upgrade which specifically allows this), then Wolf Lords can too.

IIRC, not even Abbadon has 4 wounds and he is the freakin Warmaster!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Think what you want, but they're of course going to cost more, and it's not unreasonable to see such skilled troops in the elites slot.

Sure that is why in my IG Vets who are troops are worse then "elite" Stormtroopers.

 rohansoldier wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
As long as an Ork Warboss only has three wounds as well, you will take your 3W and be bloody grateful.

This!

When Chaos Lords and Ork Warbosses go up to 4 wounds (or they get an upgrade which specifically allows this), then Wolf Lords can too.

IIRC, not even Abbadon has 4 wounds and he is the freakin Warmaster!

No Abaddon has 4W and 4Attacks just as the Chapter Master does. Though in fairness, he has many other things going for him.

I dont think he needs 4w.

I play a TWC Squad with WL myself in my army. My build is Bear, PF, Shield, TW-Mount, Runic Armour.

Its a freaking almost unkillable beatstick (ws6, s10, 2+/3++. T5, 3w). In most games he survived with 1 W remaining while tanking a crapton of wounds for his TWC mates and killing alot of stuff in melee (i accompany him with 3 TWC with 1 shield and 1 PF). If he had 4 W i wouldnt even have to think about letting him blindly run into my opponents lines. With 3 wounds at least i have to sometimes shuffle around to protect him after he took 2 wounds somehow.
I dont think its necessary at all ... but that being said i wouldnt complain about it *shrug*

Its always funny to see that people that dont have the slightest clue about space wolves think everyone and their wolfmother would get EW in our army. Its just the WL that can take EW as an upgrade. Even more funny when people think wolfscouts are anything other than total crap in 6th edition

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eternal Warrior: We have Two Characters with EW and One more they can buy it, along with a W2 Model that if you don’t give a Storm Shield Two along wit 2 Wolves is going get gunned down in 6”-12” from his starting position. And it is not Cheep; it cost more than one of our Terminators

Saga of the Bear

Read it Again.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Scouts: Our Scouts are in a crowded Elite Slot.

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

Yes and if I take more than One Scout Squad I get One Less Dread, Terminator Squad or Other Elite Slot. How is this an Superior Advantage? They also Cost more.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Arjac: Cost more than a Fully Kitted out Venerable Dreadnaught.

Also throws a hammer that is as strong as a Hammerhead Rail Gun. Arjac would likely crush a Venerable Dreadnought in combat.

At 6”, now out of a Drop Pod that becomes easyer, but then most units can stay out of threat range as he waddles around.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Björn: Dead with three Glances

Just like every other dreadnought in the game? Every single one?

Yes and… Before 6th he was a beast who you could stand on a hill and command your army without worry. Now, he must hide in fear from most armies who can take him out in the first turn.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Grey Hunters: Have to move to Shoot and entrenched Target. If we want Ld 9 and a Transport we give up the second Special Weapon and an Elite Slot.

I don't understand the first point (I can't parse your sentence). As for the second, in trade for that you gain counter-attack, the ability to take two special weapons at all (marines get one special and one heavy, which is awkward). And wolf guard are a wonderful unit, and have the capability to bring a cyclone missile launcher or assault cannon to support their squads. Boo hoo, you can't bring another plasma gun

.
It is simple, I have to leave cover to be able to shoot at my enemies. This now leave me venerable to the Mass of AP2/AP3 Weapons out there. So now I have to take a Transport of some sort, this means a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, all are good choices, but the moment you toss in a Wolf Guard...
>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Long Fangs: No Anti-Air, No Meat Shields, The choice of losing my Split Fire or a Heavy Weapon.

Except that you HAVE split fire. And if you had meat shields, you wouldn't take them anyways. No one does at 14 points per model - why would you at 15?

Long Fangs have such a reputation that they usually gain “Extra Attention” so they take twice the fire with have the models, that is not an “Advantage”. A 10 man Devastator Squad can handle loosing 4 models without loosing effectiveness, Long Fangs loose 4 models and now you have lost 60%-80% of your strength.

 Anpu42 wrote:

What do we not have:
>No Effective Anti-Aircraft without Allies

Hyperios Air Defense Launcher, Storm Eagle Assault Gunship, Fire Raptor Gunship, Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought

Not everywhere allows Forge World.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Feel No Pain

You also don't have pretty much the entire Special Rules section too. You could put "don't have blind, don't have hit and run, don't have missile lock, don't have vector strike...". Not everyone gets everything.

A lot of new armies are loosing their EW, bat are replacing it with FNP especially for their HQs. There is one Model in our army that get FNP and it is not “Competative or cost us an Elite Slot, like Terminators, Good Biker Squads, or Scouts.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Combat Squads

Instead you get counter-attack and an extra Special Weapon.

True, but if I want to use my Razorback I am forced to take only 5 Model Squads.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No FOC Free Units

Dedicated Transports

Everybody get those. Things like, “For Every HQ I can take a Command Squad and/or Tech Marine.” If I want a “Command Squad” it cost us an Elite Slot, if we want a Tech Marine it cost us a Elite Slot.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Flying Transports

Storm Eagle Assault Gunship

 Anpu42 wrote:
Read it Again.

I already conceded this one. Codex: SM and Codex: SW can bring the same number of EW models.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes and if I take more than One Scout Squad I get One Less Dread, Terminator Squad or Other Elite Slot. How is this an Superior Advantage? They also Cost more.

I haven't yet played a space wolf player who lamented being short on Elites slots. But if you really want Wolf Scouts to be troops, they should be just like SM scouts, instead of having all those fancy gubbins. As for the price, yes, some models are overpriced. Regrettable but not fatal.

 Anpu42 wrote:
At 6”, now out of a Drop Pod that becomes easyer, but then most units can stay out of threat range as he waddles around.

Put him in a Land Raider. Even without his throwing hammer, he crushes a Venerable Dreadnought in CC.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes and… Before 6th he was a beast who you could stand on a hill and command your army without worry. Now, he must hide in fear from most armies who can take him out in the first turn.

You... you have to hide your dreadnoughts... from antitank weapons? Gosh, I'm glad I don't have to hide my lightly-armored walkers from the enemy's heavy guns. /sarcasm

 Anpu42 wrote:
It is simple, I have to leave cover to be able to shoot at my enemies. This now leave me venerable to the Mass of AP2/AP3 Weapons out there. So now I have to take a Transport of some sort, this means a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, all are good choices, but the moment you toss in a Wolf Guard...

Why do you have to leave cover to shoot at your enemies? Because your range is too short? Tactical marines have exactly the same problem, unless you think a single lascannon shot (the most expensive heavy weapon) is ridiculously better. Which it isn't.

 Anpu42 wrote:
>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

Rhino: Or, you could leave your squad LD8, because ATSKNF pretty much makes LD irrelevant, and have two plasma guns, neither of which are vulnerable to challenges. Seriously, LD8 with ATSKNF isn't bad at all.
Razorback: You haven't actually pointed out any flaws that Space Marines don't have, aside from the fact that the Space Marine player can use Combat Squads, which is covered later.
Drop Pod: You could leave the model count at 8 and bring a Terminator with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile Launcher. Boohoo, you lost your plasma gun. Or you could just run it as a 10 man LD8 squad, like with the Rhino.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Long Fangs have such a reputation that they usually gain “Extra Attention” so they take twice the fire with have the models, that is not an “Advantage”. A 10 man Devastator Squad can handle loosing 4 models without loosing effectiveness, Long Fangs loose 4 models and now you have lost 60%-80% of your strength.

I know no one who takes 10 man Devastators and I've played quite a bit. I've literally never seen any squad of havocs/devastators/anything with the 'extra bodies.' And perhaps Long Fangs get the Extra Attention [sic] because they're so much better than the Devastators?

 Anpu42 wrote:
Not everywhere allows Forge World.

On a forum discussing the merits and demerits of a specific army, I don't believe house rules should come into the discussion unless they are specified in the OP. Otherwise, Guard in my house are underpowered dex because "not everywhere allows platoons" or somesuch nonsense.

 Anpu42 wrote:
A lot of new armies are loosing their EW, bat are replacing it with FNP especially for their HQs. There is one Model in our army that get FNP and it is not “Competative or cost us an Elite Slot, like Terminators, Good Biker Squads, or Scouts.

Like what? I know the Tau have a single commander that can get an FNP wargear, the Iron Hands (of course), and.... who didn't have it before that has it now?

 Anpu42 wrote:
True, but if I want to use my Razorback I am forced to take only 5 Model Squads.

That is never a problem unless you run out of Troops slots. I would be surprised to learn that you have.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Everybody get those. Things like, “For Every HQ I can take a Command Squad and/or Tech Marine.” If I want a “Command Squad” it cost us an Elite Slot, if we want a Tech Marine it cost us a Elite Slot.

Perhaps if your Techmarines were Adeptus Mechanicus adepts like the rest of them, then they'd be less jerks about their FOC. More seriously, though, this is an artefact of the 5th Edition codex structure. Blood Angels still suffer from it as well, as did the 5th Edition Space Marine codex.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Not everywhere allows Forge World.

We should not let house-rules cloud our judgement.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Palanquin isn't a steed though. It's a giant throne carried by Nurglings. See Epidemius. Fluffwise, it makes perfect sense why this isn't as tough as a sturdy brass behemoth.

Yes and if I take more than One Scout Squad I get One Less Dread, Terminator Squad or Other Elite Slot. How is this an Superior Advantage? They also Cost more.

You just said dreads are useless, you don't take much terminators, and generally the elite slot is the least taken slot for SW.

At 6”, now out of a Drop Pod that becomes easyer, but then most units can stay out of threat range as he waddles around.

Like every other Infantry CC char? Are you going to complain that Abbadon is horrible because he has to waddle around too?

Yes and… Before 6th he was a beast who you could stand on a hill and command your army without worry. Now, he must hide in fear from most armies who can take him out in the first turn.

Which pretty much was 5th mechhammer in action.

It is simple, I have to leave cover to be able to shoot at my enemies. This now leave me venerable to the Mass of AP2/AP3 Weapons out there. So now I have to take a Transport of some sort, this means a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, all are good choices, but the moment you toss in a Wolf Guard...
>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

Are you really overstating the heavy weapon in the Tac Marine squad list that much? You are LD8 with ASTKNF, come complain when your CSM who is 15 points with CCW/Bolter and still doesn't have the myraid special snowflake rules you get. And vulnerable to challenges? Once again you don't have Champions of Chaos, you aren't vulnerable unless you are trying to make some sort of major CC sarge.

Long Fangs have such a reputation that they usually gain “Extra Attention” so they take twice the fire with have the models, that is not an “Advantage”. A 10 man Devastator Squad can handle loosing 4 models without loosing effectiveness, Long Fangs loose 4 models and now you have lost 60%-80% of your strength.

A 10 man devastator squad is wasting points, and I have honestly never seen anyone take that.

Everybody get those. Things like, “For Every HQ I can take a Command Squad and/or Tech Marine.” If I want a “Command Squad” it cost us an Elite Slot, if we want a Tech Marine it cost us a Elite Slot.

Tech marines are bad, and your Wolfguard are pretty good.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

1. Minor quibble, but it's "lose" not "loose"