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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

Oh wow, you're right. That list of Great Company Saga's is completely ridiculous.

QUOTE: I know no one who takes 10 man Devastators and I've played quite a bit. I've literally never seen any squad of havocs/devastators/anything with the 'extra bodies.' And perhaps Long Fangs get the Extra Attention [sic] because they're so much better than the Devastators? END QUOTE

I actually know a marine player who takes 10 man devastators with 2 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters and then combat squads them. It works pretty well too, especially with his imperial fist chapter tactics.

Also, Long Fangs are cheap and more efficient than devastators with split fire. That is why they don't get extra bodies (plus fluff reasons of course).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

Well currently I don't think we are better than C:SM.

What I realy want is people stop complaining about us getting our own Codex, Diffrent Rules and for me personaly not being called a Band wagon player this time around.
But lets be serious that is never going to happen.

 Anpu42 wrote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

Holy feth! I play Space Wolves and even I think that's a crazy list!

Space Wolves are very much superior to other MEQ codices out there. The big problem is the lack of in-codex Skyfire and/or a flier, which ought to be remedied. Other than that the codex is still pretty bonkers, even in the age of shooty xenos of death.

On topic...did we ever agree on the Wounds thing?

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

Holy feth! I play Space Wolves and even I think that's a crazy list!

Space Wolves are very much superior to other MEQ codices out there. The big problem is the lack of in-codex Skyfire and/or a flier, which ought to be remedied. Other than that the codex is still pretty bonkers, even in the age of shooty xenos of death.

On topic...did we ever agree on the Wounds thing?

I agree, that's waaay oveepowered. It'd put us up there with Eldar and Tau. (Assuming we got dem flyers 'n stuffs...)
And I think the general consensus was that Wolf Lords should be cheaper, or else Thunderwolves should give +1 Wound.

Space Wolves have pretty much always been the best loyalist chapter. Except in 3rd, where it was BA. So that's what? 4 years of not being the best loyalist chapter?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

Well currently I don't think we are better than C:SM.

What I realy want is people stop complaining about us getting our own Codex, Diffrent Rules and for me personaly not being called a Band wagon player this time around.
But lets be serious that is never going to happen.

Ever since 2nd edition space wolves and their terminator squads full of Cyclones and Assault cannons they've always been SM + 1

Grey Hunters are better tactical marines, but better costing at the time, 2 specials, a terminator sarge. Not to mention better devastators, better assault, and overall they've been that way.

Such as DA being the Precursor to new SM codex rules, SW has been the one to make them far better and more cost-effective.

You aren't better because you are an edition behind, that is literally the issue now, even BA players have far more issues then SW in this current edition.

 Wilytank wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Palanquin isn't a steed though. It's a giant throne carried by Nurglings. See Epidemius. Fluffwise, it makes perfect sense why this isn't as tough as a sturdy brass behemoth.

CSM Dex page 67 has the Palaquin listed under the Daemonic Steeds. It changed the model to Very Bulky.

What the SW need is a new flyer. It shall be named the Skywolf and fire Wolfclaw missiles. It shall be much better than the Stormraven yet be 50 points cheaper.

To be honest, I am very satisfied with the current SW codex.
The only thing we need is a flyer, some anti-air perhaps and cheaper jump packs for Wolf Guard.

As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

And what are you referring to:
Acute Senses: I get to re-roll for my Outflanking Roll.
Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?
Extra CCW: Marines 14ppm, Grey Hunters 15ppm, we are paying for a the knife.
Second Special Weapon: This has changes in 6th how?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

And what are you referring to:
Acute Senses: I get to re-roll for my Outflanking Roll.
Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?
Extra CCW: Marines 14ppm, Grey Hunters 15ppm, we are paying for a the knife.
Second Special Weapon: This has changes in 6th how?

So you want to be even more inexpensive then CSM but with all the goodies and better?

You know Grey Hunters are supposed to be more then SM, considering SM used to be 16 and them 17, but you still beat them out on the edge.

And no, the heavy in most cases does worse off then a second special weapon.

It's actually true. Honestly 2 heavy weapons is better than one special and one heavy. Then again the game seems to rely on specialization. If you move, the heavy isn't worth it. if not, your special might not even be in optimal range.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

And what are you referring to:
Acute Senses: I get to re-roll for my Outflanking Roll.
Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?
Extra CCW: Marines 14ppm, Grey Hunters 15ppm, we are paying for a the knife.
Second Special Weapon: This has changes in 6th how?

So you want to be even more inexpensive then CSM but with all the goodies and better?

You know Grey Hunters are supposed to be more then SM, considering SM used to be 16 and them 17, but you still beat them out on the edge.

And no, the heavy in most cases does worse off then a second special weapon.

When did I say Cheeper, I am happy where there are now.
As far as the Heavy Weapon, I find it very nice to have with my Tactical Squads.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?

Nope, Defensive Grenades don't effect that. Defensive Grenades only affect the charge bonus. Counter Attack is not a charge bonus.

I think people need to cool their jets just a hair. Tacticals with their chapter tactics have become much more useful. But like all things you need a plan. You need to put them in position to get the most out of their chapter tactics otherwise its rather defeating the point. In some cases you want the heavy, in some you want the special.

The main falicy is that people assume that tacticals and Grey Hunters actually do the same job. They don't, each has their own specialization and dont work well at all if taken out of their roll.

what people really want is not better, but worth it. Grey hunters could come out with 10s or even 2s for every stat and as long as they are pointed approperately to be "worth it" there will be no complaints. Thats all most SW players want. Unfortunatly what someone considers "worth it" depends entirely on personal opinion and above all personal play style.

The same can be said for Wolf Lords and 4 wounds. As long as the points paid make it "worth it" and fair, I don't think anyone would object to it.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The main falicy is that people assume that tacticals and Grey Hunters actually do the same job. They don't, each has their own specialization and dont work well at all if taken out of their roll.

I have been saying this since the 5th Edition Space Wolf Codex Came out.

Wolf Guard Battle Leadres have W2
Wolf Lords have W3
I would like to see W4, but we would need to add something in between the WGBL and Wolf Lord.

Why do Grey Hunters and Tacticals not fulfil the same roles then? They've got the same armour and statline and the same basic rifle. They're both most effective at ranges below 12" both due to Rapid Fire and due to their Special Weapons being short-ranged. They've got ATSKNF to (in theory, practice is another issue...) protect them in close combat. How are they different?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Why do Grey Hunters and Tacticals not fulfil the same roles then? They've got the same armour and statline and the same basic rifle. They're both most effective at ranges below 12" both due to Rapid Fire and due to their Special Weapons being short-ranged. They've got ATSKNF to (in theory, practice is another issue...) protect them in close combat. How are they different?

Tactical Squads are suposed to take on multible Roles: Couter Assualt [Flamers], Long Range Anti-Tank [Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannon], Anti-Swarm [Heavy Bolter, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons], Mid Range Anti-Tanks [Melta-Guns, Multi-Melta] and Anti-MC [Plasma-Guns, Plasma Cannons] I am not saying they are good or bad at thier jobs, but they can fill all of these rolls.

Grey Hunter are supposed to be an agresive Mid-Range Unit filling a number of Rolls: Counter Assualt [Flamers], Anti-Swarm [Flamers, Plasma Guns] Mid to Short Range Anti-Tank/Anti-MC [Melta Guns/Plasma-Guns] and also fills the Assualt Squad Role.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Why do Grey Hunters and Tacticals not fulfil the same roles then? They've got the same armour and statline and the same basic rifle. They're both most effective at ranges below 12" both due to Rapid Fire and due to their Special Weapons being short-ranged. They've got ATSKNF to (in theory, practice is another issue...) protect them in close combat. How are they different?

Its the whole, heavy weapon, combat squad, special weapon issue. Is there any reason to ever put the heavy weapon guy at 12" to the enemy? No. Combat squading allow you to take 5 guys and baby sit an objective in your deployment zone and still effect the rest of the playing field with your 36 - 48 heavy weapon. Especially if you stick a razorback back there to block some LOS and add more fire down field. Now you take the other 5 guys and their special weapon and move forward along with 2-3 other 5 man special weapon teams to advance under special weapon fire.

Tacticals are designed to hurt from up close and from afar. Most importantly they are designed to work with multiple unit focusing their efforts together. Grey hunters have to close and any sitting on a back objective are doing just that. Sitting and unless someone gets close they have negligible damage output. I will admit that their counter charge ability does make them great objective sitters. They also have the equipment to work more indepentantly of other units. CC ability and two short range special weapons allows them to be effective if they can get close enough.

They do work differently if you play to each units strengths. Especially if you consider each ones special abilities.

Everyone is comparing Grey Hunters to Tactical Marines. If you believed this thread, you might actually think that Tactical Marines are good!

Its the whole, heavy weapon, combat squad, special weapon issue. Is there any reason to ever put the heavy weapon guy at 12" to the enemy? No. Combat squading allow you to take 5 guys and baby sit an objective in your deployment zone and still effect the rest of the playing field with your 36 - 48 heavy weapon. Especially if you stick a razorback back there to block some LOS and add more fire down field. Now you take the other 5 guys and their special weapon and move forward along with 2-3 other 5 man special weapon teams to advance under special weapon fire.

Which is a very expensive point waste, considering that you are simply seating the backfield with one heavy weapon firing, it's very inefficient especially in the current meta.

Also walking down the field with 5 guys in squads? They'd be annihilated, even more inefficient.

Tacticals are designed to hurt from up close and from afar. Most importantly they are designed to work with multiple unit focusing their efforts together. Grey hunters have to close and any sitting on a back objective are doing just that. Sitting and unless someone gets close they have negligible damage output. I will admit that their counter charge ability does make them great objective sitters. They also have the equipment to work more indepentantly of other units. CC ability and two short range special weapons allows them to be effective if they can get close enough.

Grey hunters are designed with a far clearer purpose then tacticals rather then that waste of points you mentioned, you get up close with two special weapons, firing while at the same time defended by counter-attack and CCW/BP means you are doing your upfield job far more effectively, it's why GH still do far better then Tacticals.

While you won't be combat squadding, why would you need to? Your point is clear to get up midfield, take objectives, and deal with threats. Tacticals are so badly mishmashed that combat squadding only reduces the overall output of the squad.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Put him in a Land Raider. Even without his throwing hammer, he crushes a Venerable Dreadnought in CC.

Need I point out how ridiculously expensive doing this would be? Besides, he isn't really effective for how much he costs.

Ogopogo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Put him in a Land Raider. Even without his throwing hammer, he crushes a Venerable Dreadnought in CC.

Need I point out how ridiculously expensive doing this would be? Besides, he isn't really effective for how much he costs.

Neither are many things in many codecies. Be happy you aren't forced to take subpar units.

You need to remember the number one rule for winning the game. Play the mission. In a game where 9 out of 10 missions are objective missions, how is it ever a bad thing to be able to go from 4-6 scoring unit to 8 - 12.

If I had this ability, you would bet I'd stack the odds in my favor for each and every objective I got to place on my side of the field. I can now sit two to four units with long range weapons where we can support each other if the enemy gets close.

Also Id rather have two units of 5 with one special weapon apiece instead of one unit of 10 with two special weapons. You limit the amount of damage a single bad die roll or overwhelming firepower can inflict.

But its to each their own. List building has a lot to do with playstyle as much as raw force. What works for one person may not work for another simply because they don't have the same agressive nature or willing to take the same chances.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The cost of taking a Jugernaught, or Palaquin just to give him extra wounds and Toughness isn't worth what comes with the package... Taking the Palaquin, doesn't increase your Toughness for instance... It just gives you Wounds... Taking the Juggernaught, gives you +1 Attack / Toughenss and Wounds... Arguable the best in the package... But on the wrong type of Lord... Terribly packaged... The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Dex was ill thought out and terrible... Taking a Nurgle Lord just to unlock Plague Marines, costs you his point cost divided into the number of Plague Marines you decide to take.... Does that seem right to you? He doesn't get the privilege of ever taking a piece of Wargear which bestows EW... The best he can hope for is T6 so that str 10 weapons cannot ID him.... Like.... A Power Fist.... Chaos Lords got such a disgustingly raw deal in terms of both usefulness and actual purpose for the Dex...

I am going to have to disagree with you, like, a lot.

And also you're watering down your own arguments with excessive and incorrect uses of ellipses. Just use one period! Trust me, it makes words much more powerful.

Chaos Lords can totally wreck things. You just have to pay around 150 points. Cosindering they will be your warlord most the time, it's just the way of things this edition. Either go with a really cheap HQ unit who's barebones just to be your warlord and then hide him all game, or make him cost the equivalent of 10 chaos marines and watch him become a wrecking ball who'll hopefully kill more than 10 marines ever could.

The Nurgle "steed" isn't a steed really. It's basically tons of extra wounds. You're still t5 because of the Mark of Nurgle so it's not like you have to sweat instant death all that much, and 5 wounds is a ton for a warlord unit. Still, I feel like a Chaos Lord of Nurgle is best on a bike for that T6. I feel like the Palanquin is more for Nurgle Sorcerers. 4 wounds on a sorcerer is awesome.

Have you ever faced a Juggernaut Khorne Lord wielding the Axe of Blind Fury? Dude gets like 9-14 attacks on the charge, all made at S6 AP2 I5. I don't believe there's a way in the game to have that many attacks made at that strength and AP in close combat in the game outside of monstrous creatures, which are actually significantly more expensive than the Juggerlord would be. Again, T5 so you only have to worry about S10 weaponry and MCs. Actually, with MCs, you still only really have to worry about other chaos players and their Daemon Princes as he'll kill any Tau MC and most Tyranid MCs before they get to strike, barring some totally abyssmal luck. Obviously that's a risky proposition, but it's worth noting.