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the modifier is applied to the dice roll but RAW if you roll a one on the die, not the total modified roll. But the actual die roll, you fail.

"Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails"

It wouldnt matter if the modifier was +10000000, if you roll a 1 you fail.

Again read how dice roll modifiers work. I roll a d6+1 the lowest I can roll is 2. So that rule is irrelevant to the debate.

So the rule that I was admiring because it seemed to take Duel Terminology into account fails because it over-looked a completely different rule when it comes to what a dice face 'shows.'
*Slow Clap*
Well done Game Workshop.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Blacktoof

Check the rules on dice roll modifiers. If the rule said on a natural roll of a 1 you would be correct.

As seen here +1 to a save is a modification to the actual save value, not the dice result.

Not really proof that sentence still reads fine if you assume the +1, +2 etc are applied to the dice throw. So we have many incidences of the terminology being able to be read as type of saves or save throws. We have a cast iron incidence of it applying to the saving throw. Also whilst a model may have many saves (making your interpretation valid for that sentence) it can only ever have 1 armour (making your interpretation invalid for the Chariots sentence).

So a Space Marine Captain with the Armour Indomitus, loses his Power Armour?
Better example, Eldar Jetbikes confer a 3+ armour save, yet Windrider Guardians have mesh armour (5+ armour save) as well.

 FlingitNow wrote:

As seen here +1 to a save is a modification to the actual save value, not the dice result.

Not really proof that sentence still reads fine if you assume the +1, +2 etc are applied to the dice throw.

The sentence utterly fails if you apply it to the roll instead of the save, as it states, as even a +1 would take it beyond a 1. So it can't possibly refer to the roll. So yes, very clear proof. Crystal clear proof in fact.

The Chariot rules uses exactly the same terminology.

Chariots - Improved Saves wrote:by allowing the rider +1 to his armour saves against Wounds caused in close combat

Maximum Saves wrote:Some models gain additional benefits from rules that may increase any of their saves by +1 or +2 or even more. However, no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails.

No way to worm out of this one. The two quotes above clearly show it is not the dice roll being modified in the case of Chariots.

Of course, if it were the dice roll and not the save characteristic, then AP would be based on the unmodified save characteristic...

If you roll a d6+1 the lowest you can roll is a 1. Your result would be a 2 , but you can still roll a 1.

You can modify your armor as per the raw and if you pass a save with that modification you save, as per the RAW.

However, as per the RAW if you roll a 1, you fail. That does not mean the result of your modified save but the roll on the dice when you look at it and see a number between 1 and 6. You may have a result of a 2 on a d6+1 but you got it from rolling a 1. That die right there is a 1. A roll of 1 is a fail. Did you roll a 1? Yes, you may have a total of 2 but because you rolled a 1 yo. Failed RAW

I think we can safely lock this exercise in futility.

I mean seriously, the OP found the answer to his question like 1/3 of the way down the first page. There is no need to argue on when the effective result is the same.