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 Happyjew wrote:
CSM have it hard? Try running Nids for a while. Then come back and see how hard CSM really have it in this edition.

Word.

I would recommend posting your models you have and trying a more optimized list with a bit of tactical advise mixed in. Also what type of opponents are giving you trouble would help to tailor to your meta. Building an army takes a lot of time and patience and if you like the models and fluff then the game play aspect can be figured out.

I am really loving the black legion supplement and Be'Lakor data slate lately. Be'Lakor is such a tool box and totally unique to Chaos. The Black Legion supplement gives me some unique wargear and most importantly lets me roll off to use the black legion mission instead of regular missions in any game.

I haven't went to any GTs or anything but I definitely have not felt outclassed or without options in any of my games using CSM. There are several very brutal lists but they all have one thing in common; the CSM codex now has to be played very very aggressively to have a shot against the nastier lists from other dexs.

Sounds like nids might have some advantages over meq armies, but the synapse is a problem. Lots of cheap wounds is invaluable vs Tau/Eldar.

As a joke I ran a no synapse army. Somehow, I made it through Turn 5 without getting tabled. Of course all I had left was Old One Eye and a Tyannofex, but, well it was entertaining. Next time I'm running all Synapse.

 ansacs wrote:
I would recommend posting your models you have and trying a more optimized list with a bit of tactical advise mixed in. Also what type of opponents are giving you trouble would help to tailor to your meta. Building an army takes a lot of time and patience and if you like the models and fluff then the game play aspect can be figured out.

I am really loving the black legion supplement and Be'Lakor data slate lately. Be'Lakor is such a tool box and totally unique to Chaos. The Black Legion supplement gives me some unique wargear and most importantly lets me roll off to use the black legion mission instead of regular missions in any game.

I haven't went to any GTs or anything but I definitely have not felt outclassed or without options in any of my games using CSM. There are several very brutal lists but they all have one thing in common; the CSM codex now has to be played very very aggressively to have a shot against the nastier lists from other dexs.

Currently, my roster is as follows:

1 Chaos Lord
1 Sorcerer in Terminator armor
2 Ten-man Chaos Space Marine squads with Icons of Excess
5 Terminators with chainfists and 1 Reaper AC
2 Heldrakes
6 Obliterators
1 Forgefiend

Obviously, I proxy a lot. I haven't run my CSM squads as actual CSM since like my second match with the army, opting insted for Plague/Noise Marines. I have a fair amount of Orks, which gives me a lot of leeway for proxying infantry.

As for the opponent types that have given me trouble... pretty much everyone. To be specific, I play most often against Space Wolves, Eldar, Tau and Grey Knights. The Space Wolf player mostly kills me with Thunderwolves w/ Storm Shields and Termies in a drop pod, the Eldar player with Eldrad's infinite storm of psychic bs and skyfire on warwalkers, the Tau player with a Riptide, Hammerhead, Pathfinders, Broadsides, Farsight and Crisis Bodyguards (so, nearly his entire list) and the Grey Knights with Paladins and Psycannons.

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention, I also play an IG player who wrecks my face with Executioners and Demolishers.

Maphysto wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
, trade or sell your chaos Space marines. I'll tell you what, you should not be having big issues against space marines.

I hate Veterans of the long war. Bring a couple of drakes, deep strike some terminators or obliterators or both. Chaos SM have a lot of stuff, I don't think they have a broken codex. You're just not playing them right.

I'm not saying you're one of them but a lot of the people I see play chaos get too into the lore. I'm gonna play this chaos army because they have this lore..when given advice or suggestions, they come back with" that doesn't play to my army though." Who cares if you have iron warriors, bring plague marines man, have a demon prince HQ.

You're codex is not broken.

- I've fielded Daemon Princes multiple times in various configurations. They just die before accomplishing anything, and that's 250-350 points down the drain.

- Vets of the Long War is a big point sink for something that's only going to give me a benefit against one of the guys I play, and a questionable benefit at that. Besides, I don't like list tailoring.

- Plague Marines have been helpful, but they still melt under sustained fire, especially when I'm outranged (which I usually am). I need Rhinos for mobility and cover to really make them work, and I have none.

- I bring 2 Heldrakes in every list, standard. They're great at burning 3+ infantry, but if my opponent brings tanks or anything with a 2+, they're pretty much useless. And if he has something with Skyfire (Which he will because everyone I play knows Drakes are the only truly threatening thing I have), they'll be dead by turn 4.

- Obliterators are great, but they're a huge point sink for only 6 wounds. That's less points for me to spend on anything else, and when I Deep Strike, if they scatter in a bad position or Mishap, then that's another 200 points wasted.

- Termies can only do so much when your opponent has more dakka and more AP2 than you. At best I could suicide them with combi-meltas and pop a tank or two, but that's a really expensive unit to be sending out to die. See also: Scatter and Mishap.

Lastly, there's no call for you to take such an insulting tone. "Get good or stop trying" is not a valid piece of advice. Everyone else here has been friendly and understanding, so maybe you should learn from them.

Sorry you're sensitive, I didn't say get good or stop trying. I said you're playing them wrong. Chaos is capable of winning. I've seen it first hand. On me and others.

I play vanilla marines and I suck against chaos.

Chaos have option to combat horde armies and they have options to fight mech armies. It's sucks but you have to have the tools to fight each other. I'll be honest, you're probably not going to ever be able to bring a homogenized list to a table that can defeat anything. You're going to have to bring enough models to play a few different types of armies. Or find out what or who you're going to fight before hand.
If you need assistance in reading my tone. Don't quit.

gak, and if you do, tell me what you have, I may buy them off you. I wanna start a death guard legion.

Second option...look into the black legion codex. You could go and ally with them.

Maphysto wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention, I also play an IG player who wrecks my face with Executioners and Demolishers.

Very bold of him to use just those. He could just spam Vendetta's, but I salute him for using tanks that are oriented for close-quarters. He could just use LRBT's and snipe you.

Just try to focus his tanks and avoid playing the attrition game with his infantry if he fields many of them. Trust me; he'll win the attrition game every time.

That being said, yeah, I agree with the others that you should try the Black Legion supplement. I, personally, haven't used it - but a mate of mine makes a pretty solid force with his Chaos using the supplement.

Maphysto wrote:
How many units of Spawn would you recommend? I've heard a lot about how great they are at tarpitting, and have a list that uses them, but haven't had a chance to playtest it yet.

Fast attack is the best slot in the codex, lot of competition there, so I don't know if I would run more than one full unit of spawn. 2 Drakes are usually good, but since you're seeing a lot of termie units and Tau skyfire they're not really the best for your meta.

The key to winning with CSM is synergy. You want a good balance of speed, firepower, and objective holding. Your list should be different as we don't see much of the same armies, but mine usually goes like this;
Lord; termie armor, MOS
2 units of 8-10 noise marines with sonic blasters, IOE, in a rhino (Troops due to lord's mark)
OR 3+ units of 10 Marines in rhino
2-3 small units of cultists
3 termies with power weapons and combi meltas (I like to deep strike my lord in with them and assassinate warlords)
2-3 squads of bikers, or spawn, or Raptors, or any combination thereof
3 units of Havoks behind an quadgun Aegis. (Provides anti-tank and anti-air)

You can change anything as you see fit, but you get the idea. Quick units to tie-up shooters, shooters to squelch assault units, and multiple small units ready to grab or contest objectives.

Edit; For some reason i wrote Warp Talons instead of Raptors. Talons are NEVER a good choice!

Your troops choices are probably your biggest problem. With so few CSM and no transports even proxying them as plaguemarines will do very little for you and will make list building difficult. You could field ork allies to fill in your troops with boyz (just take 2 minimum CSM units then to man a quadd gun or something) or you could proxy them as cultists. Either would help.

Well not sure what points you play at but this is a list that has done well for me recently.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/565224.page

The concept of it is to field the zombies (proxy your orks). All three oblit units DS down with an IC in each. You can proxy your units you have fairly easily with this list. The units on the board will be difficult to kill with the ADL to protect them. The comms relay gives you control over when your reserves come in. In objective missions you go after the scoring units with your oblits, IC, and heldrakes with extreme prejudice and aim to basically score with the zombies in your deployment zone and either kill all the opponent's scoring or contest with the DS units. In KP games it is just straight up kill the threats and pick up easy KP. You could easily trade a 3 man oblit unit for a termi combi weapon unit. Keep the termies cheap though with PW, reaper AC, and combi weapons. Without transports you will struggle with CSM, plague marines, etc. as they lack mobility to bring their weapons to the fight and they don't have the bodies to absorb firepower without hitting back. They are also too expensive to not contribute to the fight. Zombies are cheap enough to get the bodies to just absorb shots. The sorcerer should go for telepathy.


+Space Wolves(Thunderwolves w/ Storm Shields and Termies in a drop pod) is this loganwing? for scoring termies or grey hunters?
The termies come down and kill some zombies. Spread your zombies out and and put your comms relay at the rear of your deployment zone out of LoS behind a box...er building. The SW player should have zero chance of clearing all the zombies over the course of the game if done correctly (setup in a honey comb pattern for extra lolz so his drop pod has a chance to land and not allow his termies to disembark). Your oblits and heldrakes should come in after his termies in pod and you should aim the oblits 6" away from the target and if possible 9+" away from any other mishap obstacle. This is a very safe DS usually. I would let his thunder wolves and termies wander and go after his scoring first and foremost. If he puts one of them out there unsupported you ca take it out with the combined plasma shooting of the oblits, sorcerer, and typhus. The heldrakes should have nearly free reign at his troops. Use the oblits to kill any ground based AA so the heldrakes can work. The last memory has a great blinding effect that will cripple his counter fire and even melee. Typhus can really put out the damage against most SW units just make sure you thin them down with shooting first.

Eldar (Eldrad's infinite storm of psychic bs and skyfire on warwalkers) eldrad can only use one witchfire a turn. what do you mean by infinite?
If the eldar opponent takes waveserpents then it is a challenge. Either way hit one side of his deployment concentrating on what can damage your helldrakes worst first, then his warwalkers, and finally his troops. Your heldrakes again should have free reign to kill troops assuming you kill his warwalkers and/or warp spiders.

Tau (Hammerhead, Pathfinders, Broadsides, Farsight and Crisis Bodyguards) is this a farsight bomb with a big bodyguard unit? Farsight enclave?

Grey Knights Draigowing I assume?
let the paladins do what they want to your zombies. Hit his support units hard and let his big paladin unit try to redirect when you DS far away from them. If you decide to try and kill the paladin star you star DS the oblits as far as possible away from the deathstar but within 48". You should have draigo as the furthest model and if possible put the different oblit units on different sides so he cannot tank all your S8+ and/or AP2 shots with him. I would usually ignore them though as his support units will do the real work against you and the paladinstar is not that damaging if you avoid melee with them.

So, I won my first match in months, and I'd like to thank everyone who's given me advice on the CSM so far. It was a close match but I pulled out ahead in the last turn.

At 1500, my list was:

1 Chaos Lord w/ MoS, Jump Pack, Black Mace, Mutation

15 Raptors w/ MoS, Lightning Claw, Mutation

20 CSM w/ MoS, 2 Icons of Vengeance, 2 Plasma Guns

5 Chaos Spawn w/ MoN

1 Baledrake

3 Obliterators w/ MoT

Brought this list against Space Wolves, and my opponent had 2 fleeing models left on the board by turn 6. I'll be tweaking this list (I'll prolly run more Oblits and maybe a second squad of Spawn instead of Raptors), but it performed well tonight, and it felt AMAZING to get a win after so long. My faith in the Ruinous Powers is beginning to come back.

Great to hear and congrats on the win. Hopefully both sides had lots of fun too.

Maphysto wrote:
So, I won my first match in months, and I'd like to thank everyone who's given me advice on the CSM so far. It was a close match but I pulled out ahead in the last turn.

At 1500, my list was:

1 Chaos Lord w/ MoS, Jump Pack, Black Mace, Mutation

15 Raptors w/ MoS, Lightning Claw, Mutation

20 CSM w/ MoS, 2 Icons of Vengeance, 2 Plasma Guns

5 Chaos Spawn w/ MoN

1 Baledrake

3 Obliterators w/ MoT

Brought this list against Space Wolves, and my opponent had 2 fleeing models left on the board by turn 6. I'll be tweaking this list (I'll prolly run more Oblits and maybe a second squad of Spawn instead of Raptors), but it performed well tonight, and it felt AMAZING to get a win after so long. My faith in the Ruinous Powers is beginning to come back.