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Yes, you're crazy. Don't bother. There is so much available used it will never matter if they go away.

And i feel the premise is just another excuse for the same thread we have every couple of months.

While they are running the company like a butch of grotz with the runs, they still won't go away.

No point. Just wait until the next week when all the panickers start dumping all their stuff on ebay as if GW no longer producing the game means they can't actually play it anymore. You'll be able to get everything you'll ever need for cheap without the work of trying to cast a new army yourself. Epic has been dead in the water for ages, but I still play it fairly regularly because the minis don't go away. At this stage the minis are getting pricier, but back when Epic 40k came out of Space Marine 2nd edition/Titan Legions a TON of players rage quit because the game finally actually played to its scale instead of like 40k with way too many minis and that was even with a version of the game still in production.

Skriker

Ashitaka wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:


Bear in mind, I am not endorsing recasting, saying that it won't provoke litigation, nor saying that it is an unambiguous area of law.

What I am referring to is an expert report that came out in the GW v CHS case wherein pre-eminent UK law professor Lionel Bently, specializing in and advising the government on intellectual property law, opined that it is likely that in the UK Games Workshop's miniatures would be considered toys and therefore not protected by copyright, but rather as industrial designs.

Industrial designs follow different rules, and as far as I am aware (and UK law is not really my thing), an industrial design right provides a 5 year period of exclusivity that can be renewed twice if the design is registered, providing a maximum of 15 years of exclusive use. If this is the case, as Professor Bently opined, any GW 'toy' that has been on the market for 15 years would basically be up for grabs. Now, as far as I am aware, GW has registered none of its products as industrial designs ever, meaning that the time period is probably more like 5 years.

Again, I am not a lawyer, and I am merely referring to an expert report produced pro-bono by Professor Bently in the Games Workshop v Chapterhouse Studios lawsuit.

I believe that this is also a fallout of the Lucasfilm verdict (vs the guy who sculpted the stormtrooper armour), where all of that was ruled under design rights and not copyright. There is mention of toys in the judgement. So under the same understanding you can make stormtrooper toys and probably most of the older star wars toys in the UK.

Exactly. The irony of the whole thing is that GW's expert on UK copyright ownership was on the losing side of that Lucasfilm case. So CHS's expert was able to cite a High Court ruling that went against GW's own expert's opinion. Of course, Kennelly decided to apply US law as opposed to UK law, so the question became moot. I disagree with Kennelly's ruling on that particular issue, as the case law goes a little bit both ways, but there was a solid foundation on which to treat the work as if it originated in the US.

Fundamentally, I dislike the inherent loophole of asserting a work of art in a foreign country that would not exist in the country of origin, and I have a big problem with US jurisprudence which is incredibly murky on the area of the Useful Function exception. Toys are not "art" in the UK because they are mass produced and serve a useful function. Inherently, the basis on which the UK excludes toys from copyright protection exists in US copyright law, although it is a sloppy grey area because our statues are not as tight and up to date as the UK's in this regard.

Judge Kennelly ruled that a toy in the US is "art" because its value is principally aesthetic, down to the function of a working door hinge or arm joint. That is a very scary ruling to have on the record, even in a district court. It should cause lots of folks a measure of concern, but make Hasbro really happy I expect. Sorry minifig...guess LEGO shouldn't have patented you...then you could still be protected in Judge Kennelly's courtroom.

I have no moral or ethical issues really with people recasting OOP products or products where the company is no longer in existence and the models will not be produced.

However, when said models are reproduced by a new owner of said copyright, IP or whatever is protecting it then I agree that recasting is 100% wrong.

A couple of possible answers:

1.) Shrug and move on - the GW games that I still play are already out of print.

2.) Look at third party manufacturers and smile - they make miniatures that I like better, with better value.

I don't need GW.

However, I do not think that GW is going to fold up tents and slip away in the night - any collapse, if there is a collapse, is going to be slow. GW was, until very recently, still growing, just not as quickly as some of the rest of the industry.

They may turn things around.

If they don't then the most likely interim result will Kirby being ousted (after which he will land safely in the Bahamas, courtesy of his no doubt golden parachute.) Followed by GW either recovering or continue to collapse in slow motion.

But then I also think that GW overvalues their IP - if there is a collapse then it is not certain that anybody will pick up the pieces, and that if they do then whether they will try to fill GW's shoes.

The Auld Grump

I've seen games that have died 3-7 years ago still being sold in stores. I wouldn't worry about it until it happens.

If I knew they were stopping production I would pick up certain boxes just for the bits. I would pick up a few different demons, tyranids, and empire boxes just for random fantasy figure conversions.

I really wish I would have picked up another box or two of the old plastic night goblins GW stopped making. That box had some great bits.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But then I also think that GW overvalues their IP - if there is a collapse then it is not certain that anybody will pick up the pieces, and that if they do then whether they will try to fill GW's shoes.

This is a really important part. You see the supposed value of GW's IP bandied about all the time, in this thread and countless others, but I don't believe it. It took decades for the tabletop game to get to where it is now, and the video game record is mixed. I highly doubt that a company like Hasbro would want to save GW. Look at how close D&D, a cultural icon, came to dying out.

 Guildsman wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But then I also think that GW overvalues their IP - if there is a collapse then it is not certain that anybody will pick up the pieces, and that if they do then whether they will try to fill GW's shoes.

This is a really important part. You see the supposed value of GW's IP bandied about all the time, in this thread and countless others, but I don't believe it. It took decades for the tabletop game to get to where it is now, and the video game record is mixed. I highly doubt that a company like Hasbro would want to save GW. Look at how close D&D, a cultural icon, came to dying out.

Hasbro is the only company that could pick up GW's IP's and continue the games, books, modles, ect in some form. Wizards being the example people like to cite.

But even if hasbro or a company interested in competeing with hasbro didn't pick up GW that dosen't mean it would fall into a void. Someone would buy the IP for the sake of buying the IP, and licence it out for royalties.

the GW IP's do have vavlue, we just don't know how much they are worth untill the day a price tag is put on them.

Any number of companies could and would buy up GW IP.

Most likely would be a shell created by one of the directors just for this purpose (who else would be better situated to see this coming and be ready). They would then squeeze it for everything its worth. 40K cartoon/TV/Film rights, wargame licences, computer game licences, miniature licences, posable action figure licences etc

Sorry fellers I do not see this as a rosy outcome. We all grow older and leave (to an extent) things behind. I don't see GW product now as too different from the past, just that my tastes may have matured a little; that's not to say that GW folding would be a good thing.

It would be a huge kick in the nuts for the UK gaming scene which again would have a big impact on the global gaming.

Be careful what you wish for.

I can say with full confidence, there are investment groups out there that would snap up GW in a heart beat for the money it generates. Granted everything would move away the UK or be broken up to be molded by many manufacturing groups as that is the biggest freaking money sink I have ever seen. If those presses are not running none model bits I would be amazed and laugh at just how much money is wasted.

 frozenwastes wrote:
GW has no real debt. So you can probably start your crazy plan after they lose money for a couple quarters and take on debt to make up the difference.

You'll have ample warning time.

Actually, instead of debt GW has massive lease obligations on their store fronts, which is just as bad as debt. Currently, that is eating up 37% of their costs. If sales were to drop too low, it could very much put GW in a bind as these lease obligations are just as much a burden as any debt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lockark wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But then I also think that GW overvalues their IP - if there is a collapse then it is not certain that anybody will pick up the pieces, and that if they do then whether they will try to fill GW's shoes.

This is a really important part. You see the supposed value of GW's IP bandied about all the time, in this thread and countless others, but I don't believe it. It took decades for the tabletop game to get to where it is now, and the video game record is mixed. I highly doubt that a company like Hasbro would want to save GW. Look at how close D&D, a cultural icon, came to dying out.

Hasbro is the only company that could pick up GW's IP's and continue the games, books, modles, ect in some form. Wizards being the example people like to cite.

But even if hasbro or a company interested in competeing with hasbro didn't pick up GW that dosen't mean it would fall into a void. Someone would buy the IP for the sake of buying the IP, and licence it out for royalties.

the GW IP's do have vavlue, we just don't know how much they are worth untill the day a price tag is put on them.

Hasbro will not pick up GW. Before financials, Hasbro has a standard due diligence practice of checking the mood of the customer base of the company. They do this through informal surveys and internet research on sites like this. Right now, customer negativity towards GW is very high and rising. Thus why Warner Bros. referred to GW as a company with lousy brand integrity right now. This kind of research by Hasbro/WotC is what lead to purchasing AH, a $7 million company, that normally Hasbro wouldn't look at as being so small, but AH had an extremely positive brand integrity.

Sorry folks, Hasbro is so big they have this down to a science. Everything from GWs insane and wacky pricing being all over the map to the extreme customer negativity destroying GWs brand integrity, will keep Hasbro from purchasing this albatross.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BunkerBob wrote:
I can say with full confidence, there are investment groups out there that would snap up GW in a heart beat for the money it generates. Granted everything would move away the UK or be broken up to be molded by many manufacturing groups as that is the biggest freaking money sink I have ever seen. If those presses are not running none model bits I would be amazed and laugh at just how much money is wasted.

Nah. If there were it would have already been done by now. Public company could have had enough stock bought by now to force an acquisition. GW is NOT a good acquisition target right now and will be even worse of a target in the near future.

 Wayshuba wrote:

Sorry folks, Hasbro is so big they have this down to a science. Everything from GWs insane and wacky pricing being all over the map to the extreme customer negativity destroying GWs brand integrity, will keep Hasbro from purchasing this albatross.

I respectfully disagree with you on this point Wayshuba. I'm not saying Hasbro will buy GW (I think Hasbro has definitely looked at GW though), but I do not think that an assessment of the customer base would be so negative. The Games Workshop brand is total trash. People have an incredibly antagonistic relationship with the company. But the Warhammer and Warhammer 40K brands are mostly dragged down by association. The fact that folks like me, for example, and others who self-identify as not wanting to buy GW products still fervently discuss Games Workshop, Warhammer, and Warhammer 40K is pretty significant in my opinion. Customers that walk away don't walk away very far. Many are still keyed in to what is going on with the company and the products.

I think anyone who investigated the brand would at least surmise that the image of the brand could be easily repaired with a not-insignificant portion of the market. Now, that carries an inherent risk as you would have to gamble that one would be able to quickly rebuild that damaged goodwill, and it may be that the portion of the market that could be recaptured via brand rehabilitation is too small to make an acquisition attractive.

Worst (or best?) case scenario and GW does indeed go bankrupt, you wouldn't see the Warhammer/40k IP go with them. The nice thing about IP is that it can be sold just like anything else, and if the owners really were falling on hard times, they could sell off the rights to 40k as a way to make some final profits. Now some other company will own those rights, possibly WizKids or some other big faceless corporation that's already in the industry, and the game would still be around.

It's like if Milton Bradley went out of business, the rights to Monopoly would be bought by another company because they know people would buy it.

If Warhammer ever ceased production, they'red be 100,000 armies on ebay the next day. The player base would erode quickly, no matter how popular it was.

Unlike say epic or Mordheim, the supply of 40k would far exceed the demand.

You shouldn't buy anything from GW directly right now. You're doing a disservice for yourself and helping people who hate you. That's the main problem I have with this concept

 Boggy Man wrote:
If Warhammer ever ceased production, they'red be 100,000 armies on ebay the next day. The player base would erode quickly, no matter how popular it was.

Unlike say epic or Mordheim, the supply of 40k would far exceed the demand.

I don't think so - I think for every player that dumped their stuff, they're just as likely be another looking to buy to "finish" collecting the army or start that new one they've always wanted but never got around to.

I wouldn't worry about about WHFB or 40k but rather LOTR, Where does that miniature line go when the hobbit movies are over and the license runs out?

Hasbro would buy it, but GW will have to be in a much worse way than they are now, effectively defunct. The IP is worth something, all their shops and the like are not, they are a colossal expense. I don't see many people buying the company soon and keeping all the shops afloat. GW has somewhat painted it self into a corner with it's strategy of retail storefronts, which are quite a burden. It would break them to close them all and change direction, but someone new coming to the IP alone would likely not bother with the shop chain approach. If GW fall flat on their arse someone will buy that IP, leave the rest and take a new approach. I don't see GW stores being the future.

 Smacks wrote:
Just because a company goes out of business doesn't mean it will suddenly be legal to recast their stuff.

Oh... You're living on the wrong side of the Channel.

Some countries allow consummers to duplicate any work of art they bought, for their own personnal use. For example, you can rip the CD you just bought, and add the MP3 files to your laptop, smartphone or MP3 player.

As long as you don't distribute the files around you, everything is fine.

Guess what ? Most of these countries consider miniatures to be works of art.

Litcheur wrote:
Some countries allow consummers to duplicate any work of art they bought, for their own personnal use.

Whether it is legal or illegal isn't really that important. The point I was making is that the company going bust (or the models being OOP) doesn't have any impact on the legal status of the models with regards to recasting. Whatever was the case before will still be the case after, regardless of what country you are in.

The OP was talking about buying models to now to recast later. This begs the question: why wait?.

 Smacks wrote:

Litcheur wrote:
Some countries allow consummers to duplicate any work of art they bought, for their own personnal use.

Whether it is legal or illegal isn't really that important. The point I was making is that the company going bust (or the models being OOP) doesn't have any impact on the legal status of the models with regards to recasting. Whatever was the case before will still be the case after, regardless of what country you are in.

The OP was talking about buying models to now to recast later. This begs the question: why wait?.

The reason to wait would be that the owner of the copyright still has cash and a nasty attitude. If GW went belly up and nobody bought or acquired the rights to its alleged copyrights (unlikely), the works would essentially be orphaned works. It would be illegal to copy them but nobody would be around to license, transfer, or defend the copyrights. But if ownership were worked out, one could be liable for damages, though in the case of GW probably not statutory as GW generally doesn't register its copyrights.

In such an unusual case the ethics of recasting might change a bit, but in the US at least, because our copyright laws are screwed up bunches, the works would not pass into the public domain, as it takes a specific act to put a work into the public domain.

my god... seriously? is the OP really considering this?

weeble1000 wrote:
In such an unusual case the ethics of recasting might change a bit, but in the US at least, because our copyright laws are screwed up bunches, the works would not pass into the public domain, as it takes a specific act to put a work into the public domain.

Exactly. The likelihood of you getting in trouble is zero either way, and the law is the same either way. So I'm not sure why someone would pick now to suddenly decide it's easier to cast your own. Recasting a tank in something like resin would be pretty expensive and time consuming, especially if you wanted good quality. It probably wouldn't be economical unless you planned on building dozens. Buying OOP off of ebay would likely be easier and more economical.

EDIT: Or just wait for the 3D printer file to turn up. If we're talking about the future, can't be long now until we all have one.

So, essentially this thread is "should we buy something we have no immediate need for, on the off chance we might need it or have a planned use for it at a significantly later date?"

This already constitutes at least half of the purchases I make, clearly I've been prepping in ignorance.

Or I'm just a typical wargamer....

You are just a typical wargamer.