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 CrownAxe wrote:
@Deathreaper - All of your examples start with "Note that" as in those sentances are specifically reminding you of the how the rules work in those situations. The CSM Nurgle power does not have such language.

Also, to be a redundancy the rules have to have said it before. But no where in the rules does it say Psychic Powers stack with themselves, ergo the CSM psychic power statement of allowing it to be stacked with its self can't be a redundancy

Yet they also told us that maths works normally with modifiers, meaning stacking - addition usually - works. So yes, it is a reminder.

Fling - I proved the outer class, so no need to prove your ever increasingly specific set of demands. Or do you need the missing link in between the missing link found as well? (Futurama)

Well you can't prove that all the psychic powers that contain "whilst this power is in effect" wording stack, because they don't. That's 90% of relevant powers anyway. My increasing demands for an example? No just any comparable example where they have intentionally misleading "reminders" just any evidence that they ate deliberately trying to mislead us as you claim.

Nos: If all those rules about different powers in the psychic section are just reminders though, what rules are they reminding us about that were used previously?

Special Rules. Special rules even go so far as to tell us we can get special rules from psychic powers.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Nos: If all those rules about different powers in the psychic section are just reminders though, what rules are they reminding us about that were used previously?

Special Rules. Special rules even go so far as to tell us we can get special rules from psychic powers.

You know else grants special rules? Wargear and Weapons. I guess that means 2+ DCCW don't stack.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Nos: If all those rules about different powers in the psychic section are just reminders though, what rules are they reminding us about that were used previously?

Special Rules. Special rules even go so far as to tell us we can get special rules from psychic powers.

You know else grants special rules? Wargear and Weapons. I guess that means 2+ DCCW don't stack.

You're not helping your case any. The DCCW's are wargear, wargear at least has permission to modify the attack & str characteristics.

The rule for wargear CCw is 2 or more for +1 atk. Not 2 different, not 2 of the same. Just a very specific 2 or more.

but do they get X4 str? or just x2? if a walker has a STR of 2 and 2 DCCW's what is it's str in CC? 4 or 8.

See, they don't stack either, nice red herring though.

if you want to talk about wargear that grant special rules though, how about a unit with stealth, with the warlord trait stealth ruins, and a warlord joined to that unit with stealth. In a ruin, what is their cover save while?

Surely stealth granted from 3 different sources could not be the same right? I mean they're clearly more different than 2 coteaz's right? and they're clearly more different than the same psychic power.

Unlike psychic powers, special rules explicitly state that multiples of the same special rule do not stack. That is why Stealth doesn't stack with itself.

OK here's the long version since we're going to do this again:

pg 418, we can see different psychers can have the same power.

pg 68 we see it mentioned 3 different times
"effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative"
"different blessings are always cumulative"
"different maledictions are always cumulative"

we see from blessings and maledictions they do 1 of 2 things.
Blessings grant a characteristic boost or a Special rule
maledictions either reduce characteristics or inflict a special rule

Either or, not both. so as they do more than just modify characteristics they are a special rule.

pg 32 as the rules from the psychic section are reminding us of.
models might get special rules as the result of psychic powers

and like all special rules models can not gain the benefit of a special rule more than once.

Is stealth the same as stealth weather it's from wargear, a ability of the unit, or a warlord trait? yes

is enfeeble the same as enfeeble no matter who cast it? yes

And lastly if you want to claim that psychic powers are not special rules than p2. Wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristic profile. psychic powers can't

So put as many non special rules on a unit as you wish, they don't have permission to modify the characteristics.

RAW psychic powers don't stack unless they specifically say they can and if they do more than modify a characteristic then they are a special rule. Those are the only 2 options. And as a special rule you can at lest modify the characteristics once instead of none at all.

TLDR :
psychic powers are special rules
if it has the same name, it is the same power
same powers don't stack.

Ah, yes. The "psychic powers are special rules" argument.

Psychic powers are not special rules.
Arguments stating such are absolutely incorrect and have no basis in actual rules.

rigeld2 wrote:
Psychic powers are not special rules.
Arguments stating such are absolutely incorrect and have no basis in actual rules.

Ya, all those rules that call psychic powers special rules, just use your black highlighter on them.

in other words, you disagree with RAW and just choose to wave the rules away with your hand as you can't quote any to refute my statements or support an opposing one.

Like I said origiannaly. in my short version.

Side A) they do not stack because special rules do not stack. (long drawn out expiation with many rules cited)
Side B) they're not a special rule, their psychic powers. (opinion) ( no rules cited)
A) if it's not a special power then it can't modify the characteristics to begins with. (fact)

is this not simply a case of permission is not granted to stack the powers so the default is off unless specified otherwise?

a power with the same name and the same effect is not different, it is a separate instance of the power but it certainly isn't a 'different' power that is in effect.

Permission is granted to resolve psychic powers according to their entry and no rules that I have ever seen on these threads denies that permission. So the question is whether or not the psychic powers entry allows it stack:
Endurance - Clearly not
Hammerhand - Yes
Enfeeble - Maybe, depending on what "the power" is referring to.

rigeld2 wrote:
Psychic powers are not special rules.
Arguments stating such are absolutely incorrect and have no basis in actual rules.

This .

It takes a special poster to continue to argue this in the face of explicit rules otherwise. The rules state they can grant special rules, but this does not mean they are themselves special rules.
Nutty - you need nothing more than the rules for modifiers. You have permission to resolve the power, and permission to resolve 1+1, so you need nothing more than that. You need an actual rule stating that, for psychic powers, you cannot use the rule for modifiers. Of course this cannot be provided by the no stack side, ypso you get ever more bizarre arguments - like the one sirlynch is espousing again, despite the rules clearly stating otherwise, or you get this idea of "implicit" denial, by virtue of other rules somehow applying in general, which the ignores the explicit denial in special rules of stacking special rules. Apparently this omission in the psychic powers section however isn't important. Somehow.

Fling - it's a reminder that modifiers apply. That's all. You can claim whatever you like. Doesn't alter plain fact in this instance. Come up with a rules based argument please.

Fling - it's a reminder that modifiers apply. That's all. You can claim whatever you like. Doesn't alter plain fact in this instance. Come up with a rules based argument please.

So you're still going with in this instance and no where else in the rules the GW design team have decided to deliberately mislead us? I'll take that as you conceding as there is no way I believe for a second that you genuinely believe that is a tenable position to hold.

So we know 95% of powers don't stack 100% RaW. We know that the only argument for the other 5% stacking is based on an assumption psychic powers are resolved cumulatively with themselves (with no permission granted to do so) and that the design team are deliberately trying to mislead the reader. Is there any point continuing arguing.

If you assume psychic powers stack you can prove they stack with an A → A argument. Whilst also claiming the design team are intentionally misleading the reader.

If you believe you need permission to stuff in 40k and that whilst clumsy the design team are not deliberately trying to mislead us then the only conclusion is psychic powers don't stack. Other than that it will just be what has been stated on these pages already repeated over and over.

Believe what you will. I have answered all I will along your line if argument there. It isn't one based in rules, so please desist with making it, or mark it as "rai" as per the tenets.

That is not concession, as I do not believe it is misleading. Only with a basic inability to understand logic would it be misleading, and as I understand these basic concepts, it is not misleading.

You know that any psychic power that grants a modifier stacks, raw. Do not claim otherwise. Only if it further limits itself would permission to follow page two not apply.

Your argument on this remains without grounding, as you insist page two does not apply, and have no rules based reason why

Keep throwing around "misleading" and you may look a tad hypocritical, given the deliberate misrepresentations you are making in your own arguments...

I don't think that it is true for the nurgle power talked about earlier that it is a plain modifier. The power's resolution is a random roll not +x to a stat. If it didn't have the reminder in it's text then the effect would be 1 roll on the table while this power is in effect.

Personally I'd not allow hysterical frenzy to stack for the fact its resolution is a random table and the rule lacks the "reminder".

sirlynchmob wrote:
we see from blessings and maledictions they do 1 of 2 things.
Blessings grant a characteristic boost or a Special rule
maledictions either reduce characteristics or inflict a special rule

Either or, not both. so as they do more than just modify characteristics they are a special rule.

Wait, wait, wait. Either/or? Psychic powers only change stats or grant/inflict a special rule?

Let's see
Biomancy
Iron Arm: Bonus to Strength and Toughness AND a special rule.
Enfeeble: Penalty to Strength and Toughness AND a special rule.
Warp Speed: Bonus to Initiative and Attacks AND a special rule.

Pyromancy
Fiery Form: Bonus to Strength AND a special rule.

And that's just out of the BRB. Would you like me to go through the rest of the codices as well?

Happy - you could do, but on past experience that would not do a huge amount of good.

Every time this thread comes up the no stack side fluster around and never manage to overturn page two. Every time. It really is a tad pointless.

Special rules modify characteristics.
This does not make everything that modifies characteristics a special rule - which is what the "psychic powers are special rules" people are saying.

Until you can quote a rule saying psychic powers are special rules, they aren't. And that rule doesn't exist in the brb.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Happy - you could do, but on past experience that would not do a huge amount of good.

Every time this thread comes up the no stack side fluster around and never manage to overturn page two. Every time. It really is a tad pointless.

Whilst the stack side never manage to show that page 2 is relevant and rely on the assumptions that both the Design team are intentionally misleading you and that psychic powers stack...

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
we see from blessings and maledictions they do 1 of 2 things.
Blessings grant a characteristic boost or a Special rule
maledictions either reduce characteristics or inflict a special rule

Either or, not both. so as they do more than just modify characteristics they are a special rule.

Wait, wait, wait. Either/or? Psychic powers only change stats or grant/inflict a special rule?

Let's see
Biomancy
Iron Arm: Bonus to Strength and Toughness AND a special rule.
Enfeeble: Penalty to Strength and Toughness AND a special rule.
Warp Speed: Bonus to Initiative and Attacks AND a special rule.

Pyromancy
Fiery Form: Bonus to Strength AND a special rule.

And that's just out of the BRB. Would you like me to go through the rest of the codices as well?

Read the rules for maledictions and blessings and find the word "and" It's not there. the word is "OR" Those are special rules that also modify characteristics.

Iron arm: special rule
Enfeeble: Special rule
Warp speed: special rule
Fiery form: Special rule

and NOS, again I have all the rules that specifically say psychic powers grant special rules, it takes a special kind of poster to keep denying this while still being unable to use any rules to back up his position. Please in the future mark all your arguments HYWPI.

Isn't is odd how the special rules section talks about psychic powers, then psychic powers keeps calling themselves special rules and referring back to the special rule section?

I'm not sure if sirlynchmob is a troll or legitimately believes what he's saying.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Happy - you could do, but on past experience that would not do a huge amount of good.

Every time this thread comes up the no stack side fluster around and never manage to overturn page two. Every time. It really is a tad pointless.

Whilst the stack side never manage to show that page 2 is relevant and rely on the assumptions that both the Design team are intentionally misleading you and that psychic powers stack...

So +1 isnt a modifier? Odd, it is exactly that. We show it, you ignore it. Round and round again.....

No, there is no assumption. The rules state that 1+1 = 2. S4 +1 +1 is S6, RAW, unless you can PROVE page 2 does not apply. Given you cannot, please refrain from posting further false cl;aims about the rules, and mark your posts appropriately.

Also, there is no assumption I am making that the design team are intentioanlly misleading. DO NOT LIE about others positions, especially when you have been specifically corrected on this. Retract it.

Sirlynch - psychic powers *can* grant special rules. Do you understand the difference between "can" and "do"? You were proven wrong every time, so no I will not mark my posts as anything, as they are RAW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Happy - you could do, but on past experience that would not do a huge amount of good.

Every time this thread comes up the no stack side fluster around and never manage to overturn page two. Every time. It really is a tad pointless.

Whilst the stack side never manage to show that page 2 is relevant and rely on the assumptions that both the Design team are intentionally misleading you and that psychic powers stack...

So +1 isnt a modifier? Odd, it is exactly that. We show it, you ignore it. Round and round again.....

No, there is no assumption. The rules state that 1+1 = 2. S4 +1 +1 is S6, RAW, unless you can PROVE page 2 does not apply. Given you cannot, please refrain from posting further false cl;aims about the rules, and mark your posts appropriately.

Also, there is no assumption I am making that the design team are intentioanlly misleading. DO NOT LIE about others positions, especially when you have been specifically corrected on this. Retract it.

Sirlynch - psychic powers *can* grant special rules. Do you understand the difference between "can" and "do"? You were proven wrong every time, so no I will not mark my posts as anything, as they are RAW.

pg 2 applies to wargear and special rules. and you claim psychic powers are neither. therefore pg 2 does not apply the way you think it does.

Do you understand blessings and maledictions can, do and very specifically put special rules on units?

I have yet to be proven wrong, I cited all my rules support, if I was proven wrong, then surely you'd have some rules to support your idea? or any at all. But I appreciate your opinion, it helped me address this with a new TO and show him the error of his ways.

@PrinceRaven of course I'm serious and this is what I believe, read my wall of text post. That is the position of someone who believes what they're saying and can prove it RAW.

Just posting to address the "pg. 2" argument. Nowhere on pg. 2 are we given a example of multiples of the same modifier being applied. We are advised that multiplcation/division occur first, followed by addition/subtration, then lastly replacement values. All examples show the application of different types of modifiers. No example shows multiples of the same modifier, until pg. 32, where we are informed that multiples of the same modifier are not cumultive (per the Stealth + Shrouded example).

In short, pg. 2 does not support multiples of the same modifier being cumulative, pg. 2 only informs us on how to apply multiple modifiers of different types. Pg. 32 deals with multiple modifers from the same and different sources. Psychic powers reference the rules on pg. 32, per the "reminders".

Logic, a term thrown around quite a bit in debates like these, does not mean focus on one aspect over all others. The logic of the BRB is that the basic rules that are the foundation of the 40k rule set are found at the front of the book, and more specific rules that add to or modify that foundation are found as you read from front to back. An argument over a passage on pg. 418 is support by rules on pg. 68, which in turn are defined on pg. 32, and follow the foundation set on pg. 2 only after all the bending and breaking from 32 and 68 are applied. That is the logic of the BRB.

Per the Rules as Written, any rule from wargear, terrain, psychic power, or a specific model that bends or breaks the basic rules of the game are referred to as Special Rules, and follow the more advanced rules noted on pg. 32. Many posters have a hang up on Special Rules, due to the list of Universal Special Rules provided in the same chapter. While all Universal Special Rules (USR) are "Special Rules", not all "Special Rules" are USRs. Psyker, a USR, informs us rules for using psychic powers are found in the Psychic Powers section of the BRB, for example.

Following the Rules as Written, the answer to the question "are Psychic Powers cumulative?", the answer is, "unless otherwise noted within the power's rules, multiple casting of the same power on the same target are not cumulative."

SJ

So you say that having cast Hammerhand on a unit previously denies permission for Hammerhand to be resolved "according to instructions in its entry"?
Since it's so clear what the answer is, I'm sure you can cite the rule that provides this denial of permission?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So you say that having cast Hammerhand on a unit previously denies permission for Hammerhand to be resolved "according to instructions in its entry"?
Since it's so clear what the answer is, I'm sure you can cite the rule that provides this denial of permission?

I don't have that codex, so I can't address that one. If you give me the codex & pg # I'll get back to you on that one.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So you say that having cast Hammerhand on a unit previously denies permission for Hammerhand to be resolved "according to instructions in its entry"?
Since it's so clear what the answer is, I'm sure you can cite the rule that provides this denial of permission?

That would be Hang Up #2: "Permission to resolve equals permission to apply modifiers equals modifiers are cumulative", a common fallacy.

Permission to resolve is not permission to be cumulative. An example is multiple castings of Enfeeble on a Chimera. Permission to resolve? Yes. Is it cumulative? No.

Look at pg. 25 of the Grey Knights codex. No language is present advising us that the +1 to Str from Hammerhand is cumulative with multiple castings, yet Might of Titan does contain language stating its +1 to Str is cumulative with Hammerhand's +1 to Str. This is an example on the same page of the same codex of the permission required for stacking. The interesting part is that this permission predates 6th edition, implying that in 5th, modifers didn't stack without specific permission. 6th edition has not provided general permission, either, yet does allow specific permission as seen in the 6th Ed Chaos Space Marine codex.

So, let me throw back on to you: where is your permission to allow Hammerhand to be cumulative?

SJ

Sir lynch - I'd respond further, but life is too short to continue to rehash your errors, hoping a light will go on.

I'll learn not to click "show this post" in future.

sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 2 applies to wargear and special rules. and you claim psychic powers are neither. therefore pg 2 does not apply the way you think it does.

this is only partially correct.

P.2 applies to all modifiers regardless of the source.

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (Multiple Modifiers BRB P. 2)