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 PrinceRaven wrote:
Judging by tournament results, I'd say Space Marines are an upper tier army.

Are these gravstar lists? Because I find it hard to believe that marine grab-bag lists are cutting it.

What exactly is a grav star or death star or what ever star?

Gravstar = 6 grav centurions with Tigirius and a chapter master with shield eternal minimally. They gate around the board or whatever killing everything with ignores cover grav shots. And the chapter master takes all the big hits.

I personally love the marines so I think I'm a little biased.

Do you play against people who only bring optimized, tournament-ready lists to the table? Because if you're just playing against friends I have no doubt that Ultramarines will do work. And if not, at least they'll look good while doing whatever it is they do.

Havok210 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Judging by tournament results, I'd say Space Marines are an upper tier army.

Pure SM lists or SM with allies?

Generally Inquisition allies, sometimes Tau.

Martel732 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Judging by tournament results, I'd say Space Marines are an upper tier army.

Are these gravstar lists? Because I find it hard to believe that marine grab-bag lists are cutting it.

Yeah, Gravstars the big one but White Scars are also a threat.

Um...yes.

They are one of the top tier armies.

Unless of your course you are comparing to WAAC/Cheese screamer star, massive serptent/riptide spam etc.

its an amazing book, have not lost a game with it yet.

"Unless of your course you are comparing to WAAC/Cheese screamer star, massive serptent/riptide spam etc. "

Of course that's what I'm comparing it to. Why would I compare it to bad lists?

Why bother asking the same question every day then?

"Is there a list better than the same ones everybody knows"

"not yet, wait for the next codex"

"OK"

Now your post count is considerably less.

Havok, what are you wanting to do with your SM list? Are you going to GTs? SM have done some serious damage at top tables. Not sure if they've won a major, but they've swiped a few mid majors. If you're just looking at club play and RTT, you'll do just fine.

Martel732 wrote:
"Unless of your course you are comparing to WAAC/Cheese screamer star, massive serptent/riptide spam etc. "

Of course that's what I'm comparing it to. Why would I compare it to bad lists?

Ah, I see.

I would not worry about it - those are the kinds of lists only jerks and insecure guys who validate their ego externally by having to win games play those lists.

In reality they are quite rare and not very common.

The SM codex is an exceptionally book - filled with a lot of very good builds and units (ok, a couple aren't stellar, but oh well).

Some builds are a bit..."power builds" but not quite the "win at all costs" lists - grav bike squads can be really nasty even in the hands of a player that is not that good, and in the hands of an actual good player are amazing.

Oh, and just for the record - non "cheese/waac" lists are "bad lists".

The book is great, I suggest you give it a shot.

"I would not worry about it - those are the kinds of lists only jerks and insecure guys who validate their ego externally by having to win games play those lists. "

Or anyone who wants to field a tier 1 list.

Martel732 wrote:
"I would not worry about it - those are the kinds of lists only jerks and insecure guys who validate their ego externally by having to win games play those lists. "

Or anyone who wants to field a tier 1 list.

Yup only a jerk would play using the rules to build their list. I do love how it can never be the rules fualt.

Noir wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I would not worry about it - those are the kinds of lists only jerks and insecure guys who validate their ego externally by having to win games play those lists. "

Or anyone who wants to field a tier 1 list.

Yup only a jerk would play using the rules to build their list. I do love how it can never be the rules fualt.

This battle of philosophies will never end. I really don't understand how you can blame players for taking LEGAL choices. But GW has set it up such that some choices are so much better than others, that it causes animosity.

 Lobukia wrote:
Havok, what are you wanting to do with your SM list? Are you going to GTs? SM have done some serious damage at top tables. Not sure if they've won a major, but they've swiped a few mid majors. If you're just looking at club play and RTT, you'll do just fine.

Oh gosh no. I would not compete in any GTs. I am not a WAAC player and I feel you have to have a little bit of that attitude to place well at those.

I play both Eldar and SM armies. Ultramarines were my first army and I enjoy playing them. My problem is my current meta predominately Tau with the possibility of multiple riptides. The other players at my store are Tau, Necrons, and a few Ork/IG players. I like to at least have a fighting chance in games and against the upper tier armies like Tau, I was getting tabled or ending games at a tie due to some luck falling my way.

Yes, it's perfectly legal to take a triptide list...doesn't mean you're not TFG. In a tournament, sure. A pick up game? Not cool.

Its not the army, its the player. So yes, you can compete with the so-called upper tier armies.

davethepak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Unless of your course you are comparing to WAAC/Cheese screamer star, massive serptent/riptide spam etc. "

Of course that's what I'm comparing it to. Why would I compare it to bad lists?

Ah, I see.

I would not worry about it - those are the kinds of lists only jerks and insecure guys who validate their ego externally by having to win games play those lists.

Some builds are a bit..."power builds" but not quite the "win at all costs" lists - grav bike squads can be really nasty even in the hands of a player that is not that good, and in the hands of an actual good player are amazing.

Oh, and just for the record - non "cheese/waac" lists are "bad lists".

First of all, that is rude.
Second of all, if the question is if UM can compete with top tier builds, then of course we compare them to top tier builds.
That doesn't mean that we're jerks. Well, of course we could answer the question by saving that UM will still win BA or GK.
But I doubt that's not what the OP asked for.

UM can do good without gravspam either. It's just a counter to riptide/broadside/wraithknight/wave serpent spam. Actually, if you field a gravstar and face something like orks, you're wasting like 600+ points on a unit that wounds on a 6+.
You have overall well-ballanced units. Even TAC marines that are claimed to be a waste do good when backed up by tfc, bikes, devs or this very grav cents. You're got droppods, av13 dreadnaughts, very strong legion of the damned and many more good options. You've got adequate flyers.

Yep, sm are a great army and you definitely can win with them.

But other lists don't have the dead weight of tac marines weighing them down. This puts UM at a disadvantage, imo. Terrible troops put them at a disadvantage in all tier 1 matchups.

So it seems the UM would have a challenge going at the top tier armies. What about the White Scars? Are they the "top" SM build?

The top proven builds are White Scars Grav Bikers and Centurion Star which have seen top tables at the big GTs.

Raven Guard rhino rush player got top general at a 64 person GT so is definitely a competitor.

Scout armies get seem like they may be good but we will have to see.

I really think that an Iron Hands list featuring forgeworld tanks and walkers could be a top competitor but the cost of the list is just crazy high and most GTs don't allow it.

Hmm.. I surf general discussion now to avoid these negativity threads. Shouldn't this be in tactics?

yukondal wrote:
Hmm.. I surf general discussion now to avoid these negativity threads. Shouldn't this be in tactics?

I picked general discussion because this topic blurs the line for me. I am not really looking for tactical advice on either build, but moreso people's experiences using either build and can they compete with what most people say are "top" tier builds. My own sample size of available players are either Tyranid or Tau players at this point. I could tailor my lists to either of them, but that just taints the results.

I can see how it could bleed over to tactics discussions though.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Yes, it's perfectly legal to take a triptide list...doesn't mean you're not TFG. In a tournament, sure. A pick up game? Not cool.

And if you're a guy that just likes the model and wants to take a lot of them? Still TFG.

If you're reading this post you're probably TFG. If you're breathing right now you're also TFG.