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Martel732 wrote:
I don't think the 2+ armor models are the strongest part of that codex. STR 8+ still doubles them out and AP 2 spam is cheap and common.

I didn't say strongest. Shunting is obviously the most powerful thing in that book right now...and S5 Stormbolters (Talking Pure GK here)

But besides Riptides...I barely ever see ranged S8 on a table...it's mostly S7 or less.

Getting around Plasma Weapons is something we've always had to deal with, if that's a concern, that's a player skill problem, not so much a meta problem. (Though I do admit the prevalence of plasma over melta lately.)



Grav Cannons are your best argument...I've never seen a less fair weapon in 40k...and it's mechanic doesn't even make sense.

Grav Cannons are the only reason I've been less apt to taking my GKs out lately.



PS: Tigurius can go to he11.

You are taking that aspect and turning it into a blanket statement

Is it a blanket statement if it is true?
They are weaker in terms of being "less survivable per point" if phrasing it like this makes you happy.
Their ranged damage output is worse for the points when compared to a tac squad. 3:2 against at ranges above 12, 6:2 against at ranges under 12.
Terminators only get one heavy weapon per 200 points spent on bodies, Tac squads get a special or heavy weapon after 70 points.

So, they are weaker in terms of being "less survivable per point"
They are weaker in terms of damage output per point.
They have less weapon options available per point.
They only have access to one transport vehicle, which cost more than the squad itself.

I think it is justifiable to say they are weaker than tac squads (who themselves are overly competitive anyway).

The only time terminators serve a role in a space marine list that no other unit could do as well is when they are set up for assault, and going toe to toe with monstrous creatures and other elite heavy hitters (and don't even thing about getting them into combat with hordes), (Centurions can't cut it due to their lack of invulnerable save and weakness to str 10 smash attacks).

Btw, don't get me wrong here. I like terminators. I think the models are cool, and I like my growing army of mechanized deathwing. However I do wish they were more able to compete in 6th edition.

 ductvader wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think the 2+ armor models are the strongest part of that codex. STR 8+ still doubles them out and AP 2 spam is cheap and common.

I didn't say strongest. Shunting is obviously the most powerful thing in that book right now...and S5 Stormbolters (Talking Pure GK here)

But besides Riptides...I barely ever see ranged S8 on a table...it's mostly S7 or less.

Getting around Plasma Weapons is something we've always had to deal with, if that's a concern, that's a player skill problem, not so much a meta problem. (Though I do admit the prevalence of plasma over melta lately.)



Grav Cannons are your best argument...I've never seen a less fair weapon in 40k...and it's mechanic doesn't even make sense.

Grav Cannons are the only reason I've been less apt to taking my GKs out lately.



PS: Tigurius can go to he11.

Don't come to my house: BA are still packing the melta

 ductvader wrote:


But besides Riptides...I barely ever see ranged S8 on a table...it's mostly S7 or less.

Tau lack of ranged S8+, but what about other armies? Marines can have LasCannons on multiple platforms (Predator, Storm Raven, Stormtalon etc), Guard have even more utilities, DE have their Dark Lances and Blasters. Eldar got also enough S8+ AP2...

So hard times for Termies :(

Well I didn't use any Terminators this weekend in a 1250 point game I played against my buddy and his Space Wolves but he did.

He had just a 5-man shooty squad with assorted weapons. I was able to blast them up pretty good with Plasma guns/cannons. He had to left when he assault a Rhino of might. His chainfist exploded it but the explosion killed the other terminator, lucky me.

Game I was able to see how good/bad they could be without having to play them myself.

I think Terminators real power is the fear they induce in many players.

It is an expensive unit to use as a shot sink but against a lot of people they see the squad, see the 2+ and 5+ inv and as such let rip on them.

The amount of pulse rifle shots my regular tau opponent wasted on them before he realised they actually posed very little threat was hillarious, all the time my scoring units and flanking units where getting closer.

But they don't scare me. And they are actually more vulnerable to pulse shots than regular marines. We showed that up above. For the same price, you could have had more models that DO something.

There is no fear effect with good players.

I find Tactical Terminators to be mostly useless. They die terribly to AP2 and to massed infantry fire. Storm Bolters dish out only paltry firepower, and the single heavy weapon they carry doesn't make up for it. As others have pointed out, regular marines are a hell of a lot more efficient from a durability per unit of point cost point of view.

Assault Terminators with Storm Shields can be useful. They still suffer the same vulnerability to massed infantry fire, but they survive quite well against high strength, low AP firepower. It usually takes a very disproportionate amount of low AP firepower to kill 5 of them, and even a single surviving assault terminator is dangerous if it can assault something. This frees up the rest of your army to move into range of the enemy's powerful weapons, as they will be forced to choose between shooting the terminators, or leave them loose to destroy something on the next turn.

Csm termies are awesome. Cheap annoying relatively durable meltadrop. 112 pts and you got 3 combi-meltas (or plasmas - whichever you prefer) in 2+ that synergise well with advancing forces that should be allready pressing on the enemy by the time termies arrive. They don't pay for powerfists they won't use and get twin-linked bolters. You're gona land within 12' anywayz.

The only reason termies are useful to me (and I'm sure I speak for GK players as well) is the ability to customize a squad. Doesn't necessarily make them better, but much more flexible.

My standard DW squad consists of: 6 man, CML, and 2x TH/SS. 299 points isn't too bad for what these guys are capable of. Any left over points go into more TH/SS or chainfists.

They're ultimately to expensive, if they dropped by 10 points they'd be worth it totally but right now at 40 points or so a model. Nope.

What about Chaos Terminators? I got a bunch of termies real cheap and am trying to decide between Chaos Terminators + Obliterators or GK counts-as "Knights of Blood" or some gak.

Pisses me off that theres no chaos terminator troop option >_<

Noxnoctis22 wrote:
I'm currently in the process of hammering down my army list, hell I'm lying, it's an ever on going process! But anyway...I have a 5-man Terminator Squad from the AOBR boxed set so they are just standard with no upgrades and I was wondering if they were still worth it to take in a SM army list?

How would you make use of them? Where would they shine the most?

Too many points for not enough dakka in a meta where so much AP2-1 is flying around you may as well only ever consider their invulnerable or cover saves.

If they could take more special weapons then maybe I'd consider them. Chaos Termicide is popular for dropping a large number of special weapons in someone's face, so if I could get an all cyclone missile, heavy flamer, or assault cannon/reaper autocannon/plasma cannon squad I'd feel better about them outside of suiciding a bunch of Melta/Flamer/Plasma-boats if my marines happen to have spikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
What about Chaos Terminators? I got a bunch of termies real cheap and am trying to decide between Chaos Terminators + Obliterators or GK counts-as "Knights of Blood" or some gak.

Pisses me off that theres no chaos terminator troop option >_<

The main use of Chaos Terminators is to use them like Sternguard, suicide deep strikers loaded up with combi-weapons.

"The main use of Chaos Terminators is to use them like Sternguard, suicide deep strikers loaded up with combi-weapons."

That , to me, is not the main use of Sternguard. Sternguard are too expensive to suicide.

Martel732 wrote:
"The main use of Chaos Terminators is to use them like Sternguard, suicide deep strikers loaded up with combi-weapons."

That , to me, is not the main use of Sternguard. Sternguard are too expensive to suicide.

And people do it by the dozens...which is why I prefer it when people pod using plasmas instead of meltas...at least then you have options for pod placement and survivability.

Martel732 wrote:
"The main use of Chaos Terminators is to use them like Sternguard, suicide deep strikers loaded up with combi-weapons."

That , to me, is not the main use of Sternguard. Sternguard are too expensive to suicide.

Chaos Termies are in the same boat.

Do you want any of the actual flavor of a Chaos Terminator? Maybe some marks, powerfists, a pimped out champion, the special weapons?

Well then sucks to be you because now you're stuck with a heinously overcosted unit that really only kills things when you drop them in front of someone and pray the other guy doesn't have interceptor.

You don't even get ATKSNF so prepare to get swept.

Termicide is used because Chaos Space Marines suffer from Mehlites syndrome since all the Cult units are going to be troops anyway (and only two are worth it), Possessed are hilariously terrible (Penal Squad in power armor!), the Mutilator is an assault unit with slow and purposeful and a max squad size of three coupled with a distinctly meh number of attacks, and the Helbrute heard the call of the dataslate.

Codex: Iron Hands Mech-horde/Super beatstick, Imperial Fists shoot 'em ups, Salamander drop-burnination, Tigurius Grav-star, and White Scars bikers has it better overall by a hefty deal than Codex: Nurgle with maybe some Slaanesh and a Juggerlord with some heldrakes.

 ductvader wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"The main use of Chaos Terminators is to use them like Sternguard, suicide deep strikers loaded up with combi-weapons."

That , to me, is not the main use of Sternguard. Sternguard are too expensive to suicide.

And people do it by the dozens...which is why I prefer it when people pod using plasmas instead of meltas...at least then you have options for pod placement and survivability.

I use melta, but I tank with Corbulo. When I play with BA-counts-as-Iron Hands, I usually go naked Sternguard for the sweet ammo.