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This is just a meetup with my old friend Danny who will turn the table in my garage into a carpet of hungery bugs (tyrannid) defiantly going gunzerker on this one. Won't have a club day for a while. Don't you have a 40k club near you? I'm off timetable so I go to gw every week. 3 games a week is about average now I have time off

 Blackskull wrote:
This is just a meetup with my old friend Danny who will turn the table in my garage into a carpet of hungery bugs (tyrannid) defiantly going gunzerker on this one. Won't have a club day for a while. Don't you have a 40k club near you? I'm off timetable so I go to gw every week. 3 games a week is about average now I have time off

no, I don't. I have a GW store that is at absolute very best is an hour away. With 1 table. And on the average is an hour and half away. I have another shop that's about an hour away in the opposite direction but the War Machine/Horde and Magic crowds very frequently take over every table in the place. If I'm very very lucky I can get 6 games a month in. And there are days where I'll make the trip down to the other store, just to get cut off when we suddenly get swamped by an influx of Magic players.

Those MTG players breed like nuts, seriously its like they're manufacturing them somewhere. Either way I've got a game coming and bezerkers look fairly stable atm. So anything you think I should test. Also...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/592617.page#6777682
Thinking ahead

 Blackskull wrote:
Those MTG players breed like nuts, seriously its like they're manufacturing them somewhere. Either way I've got a game coming and bezerkers look fairly stable atm. So anything you think I should test. Also...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/592617.page#6777682
Thinking ahead

Yeah I think the MtG factory is next door.

But yeah, the Explosive package upgrade for the Rhino can be tested, as can be the Chaos Drop Pod. I also had an idea for the Warp Talons. Lemme type it up and toss the card up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so totally blanked on something else.

The original army list changes that I compiled in the revamped codex that launched me into this insanity (any wonder I'm doing this with the Chaos Codex now?)


So that coupled with the other changes we've created thus far.

Made a little mod to Abaddon. He's god damned freaking Abaddon for cryin out loud! He's the price of a flipping land raider! he'd better be ranking among the biggest bad asses in the game!!!


Was reading the Horus Heresy Books and stumbled across the stats for the Excoriator Chain Axe which is pretty much exactly what I was trying to go for with the Chain Glave. So changed the glave to that. Oh and I fixed the name on the card.


Made a couple minor tweaks to the Thousand Sons unit.


And then the Warp Talons.

Um I'm still seeing the old cards, complete with bad spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found the gladiator armory, this is nice stuff

 Blackskull wrote:
Um I'm still seeing the old cards, complete with bad spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found the gladiator armory, this is nice stuff

Eh blarg didn't update the thumbnail images. No real problem. Just click on the thumbnails and download the cards.

If I might make some Thousand Sons suggestions:

1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

2. I don't think they should have the option for a heavy bolter (or Drop Pods) or any other weapons other than a bolter with Inferno Bolts, it just doesn't make sense on them in my opinion.

3. If its ok to say so, I really feel your rules for the Thousand Sons are looking very long and unnecessarily complicated. If you were to remove your new rules for 'Inferno Bolts', 'The Sorcerer Commands', 'Tzeentch's Favor', 'All is Dust', and thier 2nd wound and just added my suggestion above it would make them feel a lot smoother and less cumbersome to play while still making them stronger and keeping their theme/fluff. (I know their 2nd wound is close to many peoples hearts including mine as I played them in 1st /2nd Edition in the early 1990's, but in the current Edition of the game it is just not necessary or as fun to keep track of)

4. I love the idea for the new Tzeentch Psychic Table and the Tzeentchian Gateway but from reading the above story about how it was used in a game you might want to change it so it can only be used by one Psyker per turn and only on units with the Mark of Tzeentch.

5. The Aspiring Sorcerer should keep his 3+ save since they all do have Power Armour after all.

6. With your new Psychic powers this might seem unnecessary or overpowered but for maybe +40 or +50 points per level, perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerers could purchase extra Mastery Levels (up to 3) and if your Warlord is a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch, for every 2 Aspiring Sorcerers in your Primary Detachment he could purchase an additional Mastery Level (up to a max Mastery Level of 5). I know they can only use a limited number of powers per turn but it would at least give them access to more spells and give them major Deny the Witch rolls. Since the Rubric of Ahriman was supposed to have made them the most powerful sorcerers in the Galaxy.

If you don't mind me asking, what software are you using to make those nice looking Dataslates/Rule-cards?

Thanks for this and all your effort, it is SO needed right now for Chaos!

 AlTzeentch wrote:
If I might make some Thousand Sons suggestions:
1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

I rather like slow and purposful. It's a very fluffy rule for animated suits of armor that aren't all there. You will need to give a pretty good explanation of why a Mark of Tzeentch character would give them ignores Cover and FnP.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

2. I don't think they should have the option for a heavy bolter (or Drop Pods) or any other weapons other than a bolter with Inferno Bolts, it just doesn't make sense on them in my opinion.

Once again, why? I'm not opposed to any change but I want to have explanation for that change. Why do I feel that Thousand Sons should have the Slow and Purposeful rule? Because I feel that it's a very fluffy game mechanic based on the idea of the unit. This is a unit comprised on animated suits of armor that are driven by disembodied souls that don't have a perfect link to the material plane. They are somewhat slow to react and extremely methodical in their approach and application. Slow and Purposeful supports this image very well in my opinion.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

3. If its ok to say so, I really feel your rules for the Thousand Sons are looking very long and unnecessarily complicated. If you were to remove your new rules for 'Inferno Bolts', 'The Sorcerer Commands', 'Tzeentch's Favor', 'All is Dust', and thier 2nd wound and just added my suggestion above it would make them feel a lot smoother and less cumbersome to play while still making them stronger and keeping their theme/fluff. (I know their 2nd wound is close to many peoples hearts including mine as I played them in 1st /2nd Edition in the early 1990's, but in the current Edition of the game it is just not necessary or as fun to keep track of)

Once again, explanation please. Thousands are suits of armor piloted by disembodied souls. Knocking a hole in them isn't going to stop them. You have to inflict notable damage to them. Punch a hole that's most of their torso so the armor collapses in on itself, knock the legs out so they topple over, or (taking a cue from the flood in Halo) blow both arms off and watch them follow you around like a puppy. As it stands Thousand Sons are extremely limited solders. If they loose their inferno bolts then what do they have? regular bolters with nothing else.... yeah. That price tag had better drop to about 8 points per thousand son then otherwise they are going back on the shelf and they are staying there.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

4. I love the idea for the new Tzeentch Psychic Table and the Tzeentchian Gateway but from reading the above story about how it was used in a game you might want to change it so it can only be used by one Psyker per turn and only on units with the Mark of Tzeentch.

We already put in limitation on the powers themselves. And frankly limiting it to the "one pysker may use this table a turn" is taking a sledge hammer to a thumb tack. Might as well just say "You may cast 1 psychic power per turn. Period. Doesn't matter how many warp tokens you have, doesn't matter how many psykers you have in your army. You may cast 1 psychic power a turn. Better make it a good one."

 AlTzeentch wrote:

5. The Aspiring Sorcerer should keep his 3+ save since they all do have Power Armour after all.

And... why would he loose it?

 AlTzeentch wrote:

6. With your new Psychic powers this might seem unnecessary or overpowered but for maybe +40 or +50 points per level, perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerers could purchase extra Mastery Levels (up to 3) and if your Warlord is a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch, for every 2 Aspiring Sorcerers in your Primary Detachment he could purchase an additional Mastery Level (up to a max Mastery Level of 5). I know they can only use a limited number of powers per turn but it would at least give them access to more spells and give them major Deny the Witch rolls. Since the Rubric of Ahriman was supposed to have made them the most powerful sorcerers in the Galaxy.

um I'm afraid you've mis-read the information. I have never once seen the Rubric described as making anyone the most power sorcerer(s) in the galaxy. It enhanced their Sorcerer's abilities, yes. But it wasn't "Oh he cast the Rubric. Oh! We're all the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy now Yah!"

Mastery Levels max at 4. Period. Also more mastery levels =/= equal better deny the witch rolls. I've got a Level 1 Imperial Guard Psycher casting a power against a level 2 Tzeentch sorcerer. That sorcerer denies the witch on a 4+ because he is a higher level. That same Guard Psycher casts a power at a level 4 Tzeentch Sorcerer. That Sorcer denies the witch on a 4+ because he's a higher level. Giving additional Mastery levels doesn't change your abilities to deny the witch, only the number of enemy psykers you get the +1 to your deny the witch roll because you're a higher level then they are. I don't know where this belief of the 2+ deny the witch roll came from but I'd really love for someone to show me how they are getting it. Barring Special characters like Kharn, I have yet to find a way to get better then a 4+ Deny the witch roll.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

If you don't mind me asking, what software are you using to make those nice looking Dataslates/Rule-cards?

Thanks for this and all your effort, it is SO needed right now for Chaos!

Photoshop


Automatically Appended Next Post:
was working on sorting my bits and I had a thought: Marks for vehicles. I don't mean just apply the marks as they stand now to vehicles, partially because I'm not crazy about the marks as they stand. But here's my thinking (and this is totally off the top of my head).

Mark of Tzeentch (Vehicle): Enscrolled by magic wards and ancient runes the vehicle occupies a point in time and reality that fluxes and changes. All to damage rolls that result in a penetrating hit must be re-rolled.
Mark of Nurgle (Vehicle): The vehicle is housing a noxious hive of virulent insects that collect corpses and meat from the battlefield. The Toxic miasma extruded from these insets serves the plague gods desires. The vehicle has the stealth special rule
Mark of Khorne (Vehicle): .... um I got nothing just now. Thoughts?
Mark of Slaanesh (Vehicle): .... um I got nothing just now. Thoughts?

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:
If I might make some Thousand Sons suggestions:
1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

I rather like slow and purposful. It's a very fluffy rule for animated suits of armor that aren't all there. You will need to give a pretty good explanation of why a Mark of Tzeentch character would give them ignores Cover and FnP.

Well for FnP since they literally "Feel no Pain" when you blow holes in their armor it would make sense to me that they would have a better than default roll for this rule. (meaning you have to blow them apart no matter how “armor piercing” your particular weapon happens to be, you still have to destroy enough of their armor with one shot to stop them, or try again “next turn”)
They also are known to basically be dormant suits of armor until a TS Sorcerer "awakens" them for one purpose or another. (plus it is using an existing rule making it easier to implement/test)
As a result, their Aspiring Sorcerer or Warlord Sorcerer would be able to enhance their abilities (in a similar way to your "The Sorcerer Commands" rule) but in this instance it is using a pre-existing rule to represent the Daemonic foresight of Magnus's Sorcerers to know exactly how to circumvent any cover the enemy is trying to hide behind, and guide the attacks of the Thousand Sons shooting.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

2. I don't think they should have the option for a heavy bolter (or Drop Pods) or any other weapons other than a bolter with Inferno Bolts, it just doesn't make sense on them in my opinion.

Once again, why? I'm not opposed to any change but I want to have explanation for that change. Why do I feel that Thousand Sons should have the Slow and Purposeful rule? Because I feel that it's a very fluffy game mechanic based on the idea of the unit. This is a unit comprised on animated suits of armor that are driven by disembodied souls that don't have a perfect link to the material plane. They are somewhat slow to react and extremely methodical in their approach and application. Slow and Purposeful supports this image very well in my opinion.

I have never read anywhere that after the Rubric of Ahriman was cast that they made use of Drop-Pods or any Heavy Weapons (if this was Pre-Heresy that would be a different story, and if I am wrong please show me an example where they used Drop Pods or Heavy Weapons after they turned into Dust and I will totally change my mind). I am under the impression that they generally appear out-of-nowhere in support of another Chaos force or on their own in search of Knowledge and Artifacts or taking revenge on the Space Wolves. Which means Bolters (with Inferno Bolts) and Sorcerers only, to me anyways. Which is another reason to enhance the Sorcerers abilities even MORE to represent this deficiency in their ability to deal with Flyers/Tanks/Hordes etc.

As for Slow and Purposeful, as I said, it does 'SOUND' like the perfect fluffy rule for the Thousand Sons, but the actual rules for it do not make any sense when applied to them because they don't have any heavy weapons nor are they supposed to be constantly rushing into Close Combat (which being able to Rapid-Fire and then Charge seems to encourage currently). I remember when they were not even allowed to Charge at all!!

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

3. If its ok to say so, I really feel your rules for the Thousand Sons are looking very long and unnecessarily complicated. If you were to remove your new rules for 'Inferno Bolts', 'The Sorcerer Commands', 'Tzeentch's Favor', 'All is Dust', and thier 2nd wound and just added my suggestion above it would make them feel a lot smoother and less cumbersome to play while still making them stronger and keeping their theme/fluff. (I know their 2nd wound is close to many peoples hearts including mine as I played them in 1st /2nd Edition in the early 1990's, but in the current Edition of the game it is just not necessary or as fun to keep track of)

Once again, explanation please. Thousands are suits of armor piloted by disembodied souls. Knocking a hole in them isn't going to stop them. You have to inflict notable damage to them. Punch a hole that's most of their torso so the armor collapses in on itself, knock the legs out so they topple over, or (taking a cue from the flood in Halo) blow both arms off and watch them follow you around like a puppy. As it stands Thousand Sons are extremely limited solders. If they loose their inferno bolts then what do they have? regular bolters with nothing else.... yeah. That price tag had better drop to about 8 points per thousand son then otherwise they are going back on the shelf and they are staying there.

The rules that I suggested don't change the idea that they are extremely hard to stop suits of animated armour. Although it requires testing, I would wager that a 4++ (or 3+ Armor) followed by a 4+ or 3+ FnP would make them even harder to kill (or equally hard) than having 2 wounds. But without keeping track of that many individual wounds or creating a new Special Rule.
I may have been unclear in my wording, but I was NOT suggesting that they lose their inferno-bolts, just that the rule for it did not need to be changed.
I also think that for new rules to become widely used and accepted by more than a small niche number of players, they need to be easy to implement and understand (which most of yours are!!) Therefore I think that existing rules should be used as much as possible, rather than trying to create 4-5 brand-new Special Rules just for 1 Troops/Elite choice (which is how they are seen by those who don't play chaos or are not Thousand Sons fanatics like me/us).

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

4. I love the idea for the new Tzeentch Psychic Table and the Tzeentchian Gateway but from reading the above story about how it was used in a game you might want to change it so it can only be used by one Psyker per turn and only on units with the Mark of Tzeentch.

We already put in limitation on the powers themselves. And frankly limiting it to the "one pysker may use this table a turn" is taking a sledge hammer to a thumb tack. Might as well just say "You may cast 1 psychic power per turn. Period. Doesn't matter how many warp tokens you have, doesn't matter how many psykers you have in your army. You may cast 1 psychic power a turn. Better make it a good one."

Sorry I was only meaning to limit that one specific power from being cast in the way that it was in that game example above, not the whole table.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

5. The Aspiring Sorcerer should keep his 3+ save since they all do have Power Armour after all.

And... why would he loose it?

My bad, I mis-read one of your earlier posts about changing their 3++ to 4++ and I only saw 3+ to 4+ with my bad eyes.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

6. With your new Psychic powers this might seem unnecessary or overpowered but for maybe +40 or +50 points per level, perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerers could purchase extra Mastery Levels (up to 3) and if your Warlord is a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch, for every 2 Aspiring Sorcerers in your Primary Detachment he could purchase an additional Mastery Level (up to a max Mastery Level of 5). I know they can only use a limited number of powers per turn but it would at least give them access to more spells and give them major Deny the Witch rolls. Since the Rubric of Ahriman was supposed to have made them the most powerful sorcerers in the Galaxy.

um I'm afraid you've mis-read the information. I have never once seen the Rubric described as making anyone the most powerful sorcerer(s) in the galaxy. It enhanced their Sorcerer's abilities, yes. But it wasn't "Oh he cast the Rubric. Oh! We're all the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy now Yah!"

Mastery Levels max at 4. Period. Also more mastery levels =/= equal better deny the witch rolls. I've got a Level 1 Imperial Guard Psycher casting a power against a level 2 Tzeentch sorcerer. That sorcerer denies the witch on a 4+ because he is a higher level. That same Guard Psycher casts a power at a level 4 Tzeentch Sorcerer. That Sorcer denies the witch on a 4+ because he's a higher level. Giving additional Mastery levels doesn't change your abilities to deny the witch, only the number of enemy psykers you get the +1 to your deny the witch roll because you're a higher level then they are. I don't know where this belief of the 2+ deny the witch roll came from but I'd really love for someone to show me how they are getting it. Barring Special characters like Kharn, I have yet to find a way to get better then a 4+ Deny the witch roll.

Ya I may have gone overboard on that one (which is why I said it could be unnecessary/overpowered), but I just feel like those little lvl1 Aspiring Sorcerers and 60pt HQ Sorcerers should be given some love in the form of more Psychic Powers (even if its just 1 or 2 extra Mastery LvLs that they have to pay extra points for, it would help with their in-ability to deal with Flyers/Tanks/Hordes/Deathstars as above) but that may be addressed just fine in your new Psychic Table which I am totally fine with and think is awesome!

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

If you don't mind me asking, what software are you using to make those nice looking Dataslates/Rule-cards?

Thanks for this and all your effort, it is SO needed right now for Chaos!

Photoshop

Thanks again!

My requests-
Make it so Daemon Princes unlock their respective God's warriors as Troop choices- e.g., Khorne Princes unlock "Zerkers, Tzeentch Princes get 1k Sons, et cetera.
This would make it so you could have a wider variety of fluffy, themed armies.
And give them Ld10 while you're at it, please.

 YFNPsycho wrote:
My requests-
Make it so Daemon Princes unlock their respective God's warriors as Troop choices- e.g., Khorne Princes unlock "Zerkers, Tzeentch Princes get 1k Sons, et cetera.
This would make it so you could have a wider variety of fluffy, themed armies.
And give them Ld10 while you're at it, please.

I was already asked about the Daemon princes unlocking the troops thing when I did the original army list mods I posted. I'm just going to C+P my response to it:

I can understand your point, but I have to say I disagree with the suggestion. In a Chaos Space Marine army it does makes sense that a Daemon Prince doesn't change the army. If you look at the fluff there are three ways a daemon prince is depicted.

1- As a character that is about to ascend to Daemon hood. So he's not actually a Daemon prince yet. He's still a Chaos Lord and mortal.

2- A Daemon Prince that has already ascended and has mostly left his old army behind. Sure he fights besides them, and he functions as a major vessal of destruction in support of them. But he's really not in command of anything.

3- and idol, or deity of worship. In this capacity he's much more of an item then a character. A rendition of a diety to use to cow others into submission. Again, the Daemon prince isn't actually commanding anything.

The rational behind unlocking Possessed as Troops in this rendition is that as daemonic entities the Possessed are drawn to beacons of power such as a Daemon Prince, so the army or force that the Daemon Prince is fighting along side can have more possessed then other armies.

As an addendum to that, I'm very seriously looking at the options of moving the Daemon prince out of the HQ section entirely. Probably move it to the Heavy Support. Possibly Elites. Not sure at this time.

As for the LD 10, it's something to look at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so I got a thought and I wanted to commit it to paper... well digital media. Now here is the red flag....

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~ RED FLAG! RED FLAG! ~
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This is where we're going to start really getting into the problems from what people want from this codex. There's no easy way to get around it so I'm just gonna use my trade mark approach and bull-doze my way through it all.

Here is my view on what Codex: Chaos Space Marines should be: These are the renegades. The majority of these dude aren't from the heresy. They're not 10,000 years old. They're NOT from the legions. I feel the need to repeat that: these guys are NOT the legion marines. Most of the armies I expect this book to build would be comprised of marines that have turned traitor following the heresy and after the disbandment of the legions. So will there be no representation of the legions outside of the cult troops? No, there will be some examples of the Legions available, but building an Iron Warriors Grand Company, a Night Lord Raiding company or an Alpha Legion insurgency cell... no. I do not feel that those should be the optimal focus of this particular army list.

Now, with that being said I threw some ideas on paper for purchasable traits.


Now, I said these are purchasable traits. So who can purchase them?
Chaos Chosen, and Chaos Legionary squads.




And since I can't really work on the Legionary Squad with out differentiating them from the Chaos Space Marine squad, I worked on them as well:


I've also done some work on the Havocs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was chatting with some folks and I got a wild hair about Bikers. Not totally sold on the ideas presented here as they are presented but they are down on paper and give everyone a place to at least start looking at them.

Okay, so I managed to get a couple test games in tonight using the Thousand Sons rules and revamped Tzeentch power table. I never did roll the Tzeentchian gate so I can't comment on that much (Though I want to get a few games in under my belt with that power to really test it out and develop a working opinion of it). I did get the Warp Time power though and I've developed a concern about that. Well that coupled with the "The Sorcerer Commands" rule. In a unit with 10 Thousand Sons and an Aspiring Sorcerer, assuming the Sorcerer passes his psychic test he can buff the Thousand sons, TWICE! Once with re-rolling failed wounds -OR- failed to hits, =AND= by giving the Thousand Sons BS5. Having gotten a couple games in like this I feel that there needs be some sort of limiter put in place so that the Aspiring Sorcerer that is attached to the unit can EITHER use warp time, OR enhance the Thousand Sons unit. if you want to spend the points to have an HQ lord use Warp Time to buff the unit of Thousand Sons in addition to the Aspiring Sorcerer giving them BS5, that I think is fair.



Thoughts on that?

euwch....most warp time users only got the power with their HQ sorcerer, you have a point when an aspiring sorcerer gets his greedy fingers on it.

I propose to use the sorcerer commands the aspiring sorcerer, expends a warp charge point, that prevents him from maxing warptime, and when he starts to loose men (and his source of power) he will be forced to choose between buffs

 Blackskull wrote:
euwch....most warp time users only got the power with their HQ sorcerer, you have a point when an aspiring sorcerer gets his greedy fingers on it.

I propose to use the sorcerer commands the aspiring sorcerer, expends a warp charge point, that prevents him from maxing warptime, and when he starts to loose men (and his source of power) he will be forced to choose between buffs

yeah I was trying out the unit last night, rolled on the table, and was intending to just swap for Doom Bolt. Got the Warp Time and was like "Hmm... let me try this." I was thinking adding a line to Sorcerer commands to make it so that he can buff the unit -OR- cast a psychic power in a given turn. not both. Also I was trying it out with a full 20 man unit so that mastery level 1 aspiring sorcerer was generating 5 tokens a turn.

I have been off with a cold (in the middle of spring) so I missed the game with Danny, just came back to see what my players had done with the rules and I found a most glorious little gem.

Horror strike is the most unpopular power (often due to lack of horror models) so they replaced it for.

Mindbender (warp charge 1)
once cast select a power that any psyker on the field has rolled for, resolve the effect of that power as if this model had cast it expending warp charge equal to the warp charge of the power.

situational but laughable, loads of fun against nids (not so tough now that we fire warp lances), and often weird (Tzeentchian sorcerer using hammerhand !?), haven't tried it personally but the players like it a lot, and have made the change permanent.

one player did find your warptime/command bug and they fixed it by changing the command rule to the sorcerer may take no other action other than moving.

 Blackskull wrote:
I have been off with a cold (in the middle of spring) so I missed the game with Danny, just came back to see what my players had done with the rules and I found a most glorious little gem.

Horror strike is the most unpopular power (often due to lack of horror models) so they replaced it for.

Mindbender (warp charge 1)
once cast select a power that any psyker on the field has rolled for, resolve the effect of that power as if this model had cast it expending warp charge equal to the warp charge of the power.

situational but laughable, loads of fun against nids (not so tough now that we fire warp lances), and often weird (Tzeentchian sorcerer using hammerhand !?), haven't tried it personally but the players like it a lot, and have made the change permanent.

*scratches head* what? can you walk me through what you just said please?

 Blackskull wrote:

one player did find your warptime/command bug and they fixed it by changing the command rule to the sorcerer may take no other action other than moving.

I was leaning in that direction myself.

mind bender essentially copies a power that any psyker has
you

cast mind bender expending a warp charge, and performing a psychic test

select a power that you want to use, ie zoanthropes have the warp lance power, so you could pick that if there was a zoanthrope on the table.

as a charge 2 power you would expend a further 2 warpcharges and then warp lance sommin




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as a crude summery pick a psyker on the table and cast one of its powers expending an additional warp charge

 Blackskull wrote:
mind bender essentially copies a power that any psyker has
you

cast mind bender expending a warp charge, and performing a psychic test

select a power that you want to use, ie zoanthropes have the warp lance power, so you could pick that if there was a zoanthrope on the table.

as a charge 2 power you would expend a further 2 warpcharges and then warp lance sommin

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as a crude summery pick a psyker on the table and cast one of its powers expending an additional warp charge

Sounds fun! It seems like there needs to be some more risk for using it though?
Such as, maybe a chance that the opponent gets to use one of your spells in reverse? I only say this because if you look at an item like the 'Scrolls of Magnus' its obvious GW feels that having the chance for many different psychic powers is very powerful and needs drawbacks/risks.
Not that I don't love the idea....just being devils advocate I guess...

mindbender has some downsides though, but also some exploits

flaws
often some codex powers target units from their own codex, making them useless mindbender targets (ie dominion for nids)

only targets psykers on the table, cannot copy powers from psykers that are dead or in reserves (killing zoanthropes is a good idea but will cost you warp lance access which is awful)

exploits
dual casting, one guy got lucky against eldar and got mind bender and iron arm on his sorcerer, he cast iron arm then through mind bender copied HIS OWN POWER and cast iron arm twice for a S10 T10 sorcerer,(who was quickly put down by bladestorms mini rending) lol

belakor, he has the entire telepthay table and thanks to mind bender so do you

mindbender is a good power but has limited use against armies that have no psykers in them, and further more the +1 warp charge on every power you cast with it is a pain and limits it to those who are staying snug in a TS unit leeching power. and you lose that power when the sons start to die

I'm taking a look through these and here some things that I think are errors.

Abbadon: If you roll a one for a Daemon weapon it also reduces your weapon skill to 1 for the remainder of the fight sub-phase. Did you mean to leave that effect in there?

CSM: You spelled Flamer 'Flammer'

Chaos Legionary Squad: You worded the special weapons choices in a way so that if the squad is 10 models than you can have two special weapons and one heavy/special weapon. Was that Intended? You also spelled Flamer wrong again.

Khorne Berzerkers: In Blazing Charge you say any UNIT that takes an Excoriater Chain Axe may not use Blazing Charge and then at the end you say any MODEL with an Excoriator Chain Axe may not take part in the Blazing Charge shooting attack. So which is it?

But great job. I really like seeing the forgeworld option of changing the armour on guys. I think perhaps the Legionary Squad would be better if we costed them at 75 points as well.

I also think that the Khorne Berzerkers should have two attacks. The fluff says that they are Khorne's chosen destroyers and I think that 2 attacks from each of them in very round of combat after charge is very thematic.

I really don't think that Thousand Sons should have 2 wounds. I understand where you're coming from but perhaps instead giving them FNP?

As to the Bikers I think you should raise their extended armour plating upgrade. I also don't understand why you are changing their marks.

 marrowick wrote:
I'm taking a look through these and here some things that I think are errors.
Abbadon: If you roll a one for a Daemon weapon it also reduces your weapon skill to 1 for the remainder of the fight sub-phase. Did you mean to leave that effect in there?

*face palm* bah! No, that was an over sight. Thanks for the catch.

 marrowick wrote:

CSM: You spelled Flamer 'Flammer'

yeah, I did that a lot apparently.

 marrowick wrote:

Chaos Legionary Squad: You worded the special weapons choices in a way so that if the squad is 10 models than you can have two special weapons and one heavy/special weapon. Was that Intended? You also spelled Flamer wrong again.

Yes, it is intended that the legionary squad be able to take 2 special weapons AND one heavy weapon at 10 men. As for the flammer/flamer thing... yeah like I said,

 marrowick wrote:

Khorne Berzerkers: In Blazing Charge you say any UNIT that takes an Excoriater Chain Axe may not use Blazing Charge and then at the end you say any MODEL with an Excoriator Chain Axe may not take part in the Blazing Charge shooting attack. So which is it?

It is supposed to be on a model basis. Thanks for the catch.

 marrowick wrote:

But great job. I really like seeing the forgeworld option of changing the armour on guys. I think perhaps the Legionary Squad would be better if we costed them at 75 points as well.

I also think that the Khorne Berzerkers should have two attacks. The fluff says that they are Khorne's chosen destroyers and I think that 2 attacks from each of them in very round of combat after charge is very thematic.

Something to think about on both counts.

 marrowick wrote:

I really don't think that Thousand Sons should have 2 wounds. I understand where you're coming from but perhaps instead giving them FNP?

Ah the Feel No Pain suggestion again. Before we go any further let me re-iterate what I've already heard on the every cult troop should have Feel No pain point:
Plague Marines: Are bloated and rotten that they would simply ignore any non-kill shot damage.
Khorne berzerkers: They are so blood thirsty and crazed out of their minds that they would just ignore any non-kill shots they suffer.
Noise Marines: They're so coked out of their minds that if it doesn't kill them, they don't know they got hit.
Thousand Sons: They're just animated suits of armor so unless they're destroyed out right, they just keep taking more and more damage with out effect.

 marrowick wrote:

As to the Bikers I think you should raise their extended armour plating upgrade. I also don't understand why you are changing their marks.

Yeah I see what you're saying about the FNP. But I would really try to find some other alternative than giving them 2 wounds.

2 wounds and all is dust works, As they fold to ap shooting of any description (rending hurts). Sticking fnp on everything is a bad idea.

I'm not sure what the 2 wound objection is founded on, I'm all for maybe cutting initative hard as they have Marine lvl reactions despite the armor being sealed which inhibits movement. But aside from that I find them a balanced unit, you get what you paid for and you often pay a lot for these guys

I don't know what you guys think, but one thing I'd like is moving Sigil of Corruption from Special Issue Wargear to Chaos Rewards and Aura of Dark Glory from Chaos Rewards to Special Issue Wargear. And then give Chosen access to Special Issue Wargear. Just an idea.

The Fleshmetal on Chosen is one idea I'm a bit unsure of... but eh, whatever.

I dislike flesh metal chosen that's not artificer armour its your skin becoming living metal hence it being restricted on mutilators obits and warp smiths.

alternative plan, allow the chosen terminator armour then remove the chaos terminator unit, abbadon fields chosen as troops and in essence the terminators and the chosen are one and the same. then we can field terminator troops

chosen should have access to basically the entire chaos wargear list but to accommodate them and because its even more options I propose 4 new sheets of wargear.

Tzeentchain wargear
inferno bolts +5pts

Nurgle wargear
blight grenades +5pts
plague knifes +2pts

Slanneshi wargear
Sonic blaster +2pts
Doom siren +10pts

Khornate wargear
Ravager blades +2pts
Excorator chainaxe +10 pts

thoughts on god specific wargear?

 AlTzeentch wrote:

1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

TS don't specialize in CC so lets make them far better than most in CC by giving them 2 wounds and feel no pain (3+ or 4+ at that) as well as letting them overwatch at their full BS and ignore cover. Honestly this feels like you are just attempting to turn them into super marines. Noise marines get an initiative boost, ignore cover (at the cost of mobility) and feel no pain, plague marines get a toughness boost, feel no pain, and poison close combat weapons, TS apparently get ignores cover, AP 3, feel no pain (better than plague marines or noise marines), 2 wounds, and can overwatch at their full BS.

If you give TS all this they should cost like 40 points each, they are way tougher than terminators, ignore cover unlike terminators, have AP 3 weapons unlike terminators, and are dangerous to charge because they overwatch at their full ballistic skill. Hell even in close combat they beat Khorne berserkers with equal numbers. Ignoring overwatch 10 berserkers (assuming they charged) 41 Str 5 attacks, 27 hit, 18.2 wound, 6.1 failed armour saves, and 3.037 failed feel no pain saves (assuming we choose a 4+ save) killing one TS and wounding another. Meanwhile the TS attack with 9 regular attacks and 3 force weapon attacks, for 0.75 unsaved wounds from the TS and 0.75 for the sorcerer for a total of 1.5 wounds on the Khorne Berserkers. The Berserkers inflict more wounds but only kill half a model more than the TS. Not to mention that the bersekers will now be bogged down for a long time trying to cut through 2 wound 3+ or 4+ FnP models that are fearless.

Hell if we include overwatch the 9 bolters fire 18 shots for 12 hits and 6 wounds with no armour or cover saves.

Buttons wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

TS don't specialize in CC so lets make them far better than most in CC by giving them 2 wounds and feel no pain (3+ or 4+ at that) as well as letting them overwatch at their full BS and ignore cover. Honestly this feels like you are just attempting to turn them into super marines. Noise marines get an initiative boost, ignore cover (at the cost of mobility) and feel no pain, plague marines get a toughness boost, feel no pain, and poison close combat weapons, TS apparently get ignores cover, AP 3, feel no pain (better than plague marines or noise marines), 2 wounds, and can overwatch at their full BS.

If you give TS all this they should cost like 40 points each, they are way tougher than terminators, ignore cover unlike terminators, have AP 3 weapons unlike terminators, and are dangerous to charge because they overwatch at their full ballistic skill. Hell even in close combat they beat Khorne berserkers with equal numbers. Ignoring overwatch 10 berserkers (assuming they charged) 41 Str 5 attacks, 27 hit, 18.2 wound, 6.1 failed armour saves, and 3.037 failed feel no pain saves (assuming we choose a 4+ save) killing one TS and wounding another. Meanwhile the TS attack with 9 regular attacks and 3 force weapon attacks, for 0.75 unsaved wounds from the TS and 0.75 for the sorcerer for a total of 1.5 wounds on the Khorne Berserkers. The Berserkers inflict more wounds but only kill half a model more than the TS. Not to mention that the bersekers will now be bogged down for a long time trying to cut through 2 wound 3+ or 4+ FnP models that are fearless.

Hell if we include overwatch the 9 bolters fire 18 shots for 12 hits and 6 wounds with no armour or cover saves.

Basically what buttons said. Thousand Sons are different Space Marines. Not super-space marines. Okay yes I feel that slow and purposeful is a rule that makes a lot of sense for what are effectively animated suits of armor. You feel differently? Fine. You've stated your reasons and I disagree with them.

Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them)

What difference does the lack of a heavy weapon make to slow and purposeful? the point is that Thousand Sons are supposed to be very methodical in their movement and approach to combat situation. In all honesty I'm somewhat inclined to make a rule for the Thousand Sons that makes them Initiative 1 unless the aspiring sorcerer spends a Warp Charge to "awaken" them.


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 Blackskull wrote:
I dislike flesh metal chosen that's not artificer armour its your skin becoming living metal hence it being restricted on mutilators obits and warp smiths.

I'm not a fan of it either, and when I first wrote the card I said they got Artificer armor and then I noticed Flesh Metal is the same thing, a 2+ save. So... yeah, change the names. Hell we can call it "Frilly Pink Buffulo Armor". The point was they get access to a 2+ save.

 Blackskull wrote:

alternative plan, allow the chosen terminator armour then remove the chaos terminator unit, abbadon fields chosen as troops and in essence the terminators and the chosen are one and the same. then we can field terminator troops

I don't want to get into too many details right now, but I will say you and I are on the same page with this thought.

 Blackskull wrote:

chosen should have access to basically the entire chaos wargear list but to accommodate them and because its even more options I propose 4 new sheets of wargear.

Tzeentchain wargear
inferno bolts +5pts

Nurgle wargear
blight grenades +5pts
plague knifes +2pts

Slanneshi wargear
Sonic blaster +2pts
Doom siren +10pts

Khornate wargear
Ravager blades +2pts
Excorator chainaxe +10 pts

thoughts on god specific wargear?

Again, I'm taking a step back and looking at the project in it's entirety and I'm realizing I'm falling into a lot of problems and pitfalls with how we've been attacking it. So... yeah. I am still working on the project, I'm just going about it a different way. I should be ready to display what I've been working with it in a few days. Just hang on with me for a bit longer and you can see where I'm going.

Hey guys I've just read through the entire chat and I'm really liking where its going. I love chaos but was upset witha few things in the new codex. Such as drop pods and how thousand sons and other are considered non competitive so people don't take them.
One of the major things that bugged me was how expensive the defiler got and with no new upgrades part from daemonforge. So here is an idea for your new codex, reduce defiler 15pts, make it front armour 13 (like the blood slaughterer) and have it dedicated toa god like the soul grinder. Its just an idea

If I can make a suggestion, put a couple of the legion units in there, it royally pi..annoys me that somehow these guys have forgotten there skills and lost there equipment when for some it's only been a week out of the warp.

I suggest 0-1 attached to the legion traits.

Night lords: night raptors or murder squad.

Iron warriors: breacher squad

Etc.

Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done

MoN on bikers with armor upgrade would be T7, throw in jink, it feels a bit much.

Of course this adds complexity (chaos is about complexity), but maybe MoN gives them a different effect, like a low end "everything takes a S-X hit who is in base contact due to the noxious smell emitted by these methane powered bikes"

Or take jink away. How can you miss the smell?