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Mezmerro wrote:OK, I noticed your TS having 2W. It's nice and all, but 2W models have one big problem: they slow the game. I suggest giving them FNP4+ instead - it's almost as good as 2W, and have the same effect with All is Dust special rule (since ID ignore DTW), and as a nice bonus you don't have to keep wound markers near your TS models.

I think you're looking at an old version of the Thousand Sons. The most current version only has 1 wound, Have Feel No pain, and I dropped the All is Dust rule. The Plague Marines got 2 wounds and lost Feel No pain.

BlaxicanX wrote:I think the 2W is a deliberate attempt to distinguish them from Plague Marines (as PM's are already better TKSons anyway, mechanically).

Basically this. The Thousand Sons and Plague Marines are both fire magnet units but bring different advantages to the table. the Plague marines bring the special weapons and are a formidable unit in their own right. Need a survivable unit that can bring a couple plasma guns to bear against a problem unit? Plague Marines are the way to go.

Thousand Sons are likewise very survivable and with AP3 bolters and an AP2 Heavy bolter are still pretty heavy hitting. But what these guys bring is the Psychic might. I'm going to revamp this some, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, but the more Thousand Sons you have the more psychic ability you can display.

I've been following this thread a bit, thought I might chime in:

On Warp Talons,

"Peerless hunter" seems like it opens things up to the opponent being able to completely circumvent this or control the timing for this (either by sticking them out of position for the talons to be useful, by not giving them space, or by staying in a transport). Is this intended?

Second, it seems like the major problem with Talons is that they're too fragile as glass cannons, but they can't be reduced in cost without potentially allowing a squad of paired lightning claws to be too strong. So, thoughts on weakening their weapons? What if they had some weapons that amounted to "lightning claws, light," such as ones that had rending instead of AP 3, allowing them to be a more specialized version of raptors instead of a veteran form that amounts to a points sink?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I've been following this thread a bit, thought I might chime in:

On Warp Talons,

"Peerless hunter" seems like it opens things up to the opponent being able to completely circumvent this or control the timing for this (either by sticking them out of position for the talons to be useful, by not giving them space, or by staying in a transport). Is this intended?

Second, it seems like the major problem with Talons is that they're too fragile as glass cannons, but they can't be reduced in cost without potentially allowing a squad of paired lightning claws to be too strong. So, thoughts on weakening their weapons? What if they had some weapons that amounted to "lightning claws, light," such as ones that had rending instead of AP 3, allowing them to be a more specialized version of raptors instead of a veteran form that amounts to a points sink?

how would keeping the target in a transport affect the Peerless hunter rule?

Actually I just re-read the Peerlees hunter wording and realized it's rather ambiguous on several points. So allow me to clarify it until I can re-type the page.
1- The designated target being in a transport does not negate the rule. It would actually help it because it would increase the range of the Warp Talons not-scattering deep strike ability (It would be with in 6" of the unit containing the target if it was part of a unit or was an independent character that joined a unit, or the model that is containing the designated target in the case of the model being in a transport.

As for the second point... the problem, or rather the core problem with the Warp Talons is how they're a cool idea that's just really really hard to realize on the table due to scale of games. It's like the alien Predator (From the movie Predator mind you) is a cool concept. How do you represent it on a game where we're talking about company level engagements? Same issue with the Warp Talons. They're a really cool idea that would work really well on a small scale game, say Death Watch RPG or a kill team game where a super-huge game might involve 20 models. on a game on the scale of 40k...it gets bit harder to implement the idea in a way that works, and isn't a time sink with a bunch of special rules to accommodate it at the expense of the rest of the game.

All of that being said, giving them something like a S5 AP- Rending lightning claw might give them a bit of an edge. Thoughts from anyone else?

Also, why no comments or feed back on the idea I posted for Obliterators the other day? I'd have figured those would have gotten lots of feed back and thoughts on it.

Agreed on your assessment, I was I guess suggesting an alternative that would make them practical.

If you wanted to make them super-assassins or some such, you could do something crazy like allow them to be put in reserve when they fall back, or something cool like that.


On those obliterator (didn't notice the update)... wow, think they're really expensive. As cool as the options are, they'd become super glass-cannons, and I wouldn't risk putting points into those upper echelons when there's a likely chance they won't last through the first turn.

However, it did get me thinking, any thoughts about allowing hellbrutes to have obliterator-style weapons?

Another option would be you roll for the class of weapons you have access to, though of course it wouldn't have the same upper limit as spending 50 points per model.

Obliterator hellbrute... Genius, and 150pts basic sounds very reasonable.

Just a little update, we tested out the hellbrute as a mc in about 15 games.

Ws 4
Bs4
S6
T6
W4
I4
Ld10
Sv 2+ .
Automantic shielding, as per contemptor
150 pts basic

We kept the weapons options the same cost and it proved to be fairly good as opposed to utterly awful for the cost.
As usual these are just ideas to spur some of your own.

I'd like to see some alterations to the Defiler, a method to change out the battlecannon so that it could allow for multiple options.

The main problem is that the Battle cannon is unnecessary points for a melee defiler because it'd rather run or use flamers up close, and a ranged one will have to choose either battle cannons or its use of other range.

So I was thinking it would have a lower cost (On top of an actual cost decrease because it's steadfastly horrible of a cost) And lose the battle cannon as base, and has a few options to replace it with. (Will be thought of later)

Also Thousand Sons seems kinda..I'm not sure why AP3 instantly kills them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Also Thousand Sons seems kinda..I'm not sure why AP3 instantly kills them.

Probably because they're nothing but dust. If their armour is pierced than their dust (them) will just spill out and they're dead.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I'd like to see some alterations to the Defiler, a method to change out the battlecannon so that it could allow for multiple options.

The main problem is that the Battle cannon is unnecessary points for a melee defiler because it'd rather run or use flamers up close, and a ranged one will have to choose either battle cannons or its use of other range.

So I was thinking it would have a lower cost (On top of an actual cost decrease because it's steadfastly horrible of a cost) And lose the battle cannon as base, and has a few options to replace it with. (Will be thought of later)

Also Thousand Sons seems kinda..I'm not sure why AP3 instantly kills them.

I don't have the time to find it right now, getting ready to head out the door for a job. But a couple pages back there was a brief discussion we had about the defiler. Basically what I'm leaning toward is brining it more in line with the other Daemon Engines in terms of weapons. It would start with just a single twin-linked Hades Cannon and then you'd have the options to deck out as a Super-force fiend by swapping the Hades out with a Twin-linked Ecto Plasm Cannon or a Battle Cannon with the side turrets options or making it a super-mauler fiend by giving it 4 Close Combat weapons. If someone else can C+P the info, thanks.

marrowick wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Also Thousand Sons seems kinda..I'm not sure why AP3 instantly kills them.

Probably because they're nothing but dust. If their armour is pierced than their dust (them) will just spill out and they're dead.

^^ Basically that. While you can argue fluff about they can't actually be killed and there are ways to recollecting their souls and whatever, for the purposes of the battle, if their armor is breached badly enough, they are out of the game.

^^ Basically that. While you can argue fluff about they can't actually be killed and there are ways to recollecting their souls and whatever, for the purposes of the battle, if their armor is breached badly enough, they are out of the game.

I was curious because from a standpoint it makes that 2W of theirs useless against common use weaponry. Though now I'm confused considering I just saw the 4.1 with 30 point 1W thousand sons and I'm not really sure of the effectiveness of that.

I don't have the time to find it right now, getting ready to head out the door for a job. But a couple pages back there was a brief discussion we had about the defiler. Basically what I'm leaning toward is brining it more in line with the other Daemon Engines in terms of weapons. It would start with just a single twin-linked Hades Cannon and then you'd have the options to deck out as a Super-force fiend by swapping the Hades out with a Twin-linked Ecto Plasm Cannon or a Battle Cannon with the side turrets options or making it a super-mauler fiend by giving it 4 Close Combat weapons. If someone else can C+P the info, thanks.

Oh that would be handy, I didn't spot any defiler chat so I wasn't sure considering it's still base codex (and useless).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

^^ Basically that. While you can argue fluff about they can't actually be killed and there are ways to recollecting their souls and whatever, for the purposes of the battle, if their armor is breached badly enough, they are out of the game.

I was curious because from a standpoint it makes that 2W of theirs useless against common use weaponry. Though now I'm confused considering I just saw the 4.1 with 30 point 1W thousand sons and I'm not really sure of the effectiveness of that.

I don't have the time to find it right now, getting ready to head out the door for a job. But a couple pages back there was a brief discussion we had about the defiler. Basically what I'm leaning toward is brining it more in line with the other Daemon Engines in terms of weapons. It would start with just a single twin-linked Hades Cannon and then you'd have the options to deck out as a Super-force fiend by swapping the Hades out with a Twin-linked Ecto Plasm Cannon or a Battle Cannon with the side turrets options or making it a super-mauler fiend by giving it 4 Close Combat weapons. If someone else can C+P the info, thanks.

Oh that would be handy, I didn't spot any defiler chat so I wasn't sure considering it's still base codex (and useless).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

^^ Basically that. While you can argue fluff about they can't actually be killed and there are ways to recollecting their souls and whatever, for the purposes of the battle, if their armor is breached badly enough, they are out of the game.

I was curious because from a standpoint it makes that 2W of theirs useless against common use weaponry. Though now I'm confused considering I just saw the 4.1 with 30 point 1W thousand sons and I'm not really sure of the effectiveness of that.

I think we're in the same boat now.

I don't have the time to find it right now, getting ready to head out the door for a job. But a couple pages back there was a brief discussion we had about the defiler. Basically what I'm leaning toward is bringing it more in line with the other Daemon Engines in terms of weapons. It would start with just a single twin-linked Hades Cannon and then you'd have the options to deck out as a Super-force fiend by swapping the Hades out with a Twin-linked Ecto Plasm Cannon or a Battle Cannon with the side turrets options or making it a super-mauler fiend by giving it 4 Close Combat weapons. If someone else can C+P the info, thanks.

Oh that would be handy, I didn't spot any defiler chat so I wasn't sure considering it's still base codex (and useless).

the defiler as we field it

195 points base with all the same weapon options +

Anchor claws - free
the claws replace the 2 power fists, during the movement phase the defiler can declare its using the claws. they allow the defiler fire the battle cannon and its additional weapons without penalty furthermore the defiler can fire the additional weapons again that turn. however while the claws are in use it treated as WS0,cannot move that turn and looses its cover save.

Warpfeild generator - free
replaces the battle cannon, friendly units within 6 inches gain +1 to their invulnerable saves, or a 5+ invulnerable if they don't have wargear that provides one . (defiler has a 4++ save by this rule)

this puts the defiler into 2 different roles protector and mobile ordnance battery. both have been field tested and while the anchor claws one works well and is agreed to be balanced, the Warpfeild defiler is still being shown to have some slightly bonkers combos (MoT and this = 4++ which is a bit nuts on cultist blobs) sons with ++3 saves,

it need work

 Blackskull wrote:
the defiler as we field it

195 points base with all the same weapon options +

Anchor claws - free
the claws replace the 2 power fists, during the movement phase the defiler can declare its using the claws. they allow the defiler fire the battle cannon and its additional weapons without penalty furthermore the defiler can fire the additional weapons again that turn. however while the claws are in use it treated as WS0,cannot move that turn and looses its cover save.

Warpfeild generator - free
replaces the battle cannon, friendly units within 6 inches gain +1 to their invulnerable saves, or a 5+ invulnerable if they don't have wargear that provides one . (defiler has a 4++ save by this rule)

this puts the defiler into 2 different roles protector and mobile ordnance battery. both have been field tested and while the anchor claws one works well and is agreed to be balanced, the Warpfeild defiler is still being shown to have some slightly bonkers combos (MoT and this = 4++ which is a bit nuts on cultist blobs) sons with ++3 saves,

it need work

I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I think it's a better option to have the defiler start in the stripped down form I was talking about, but including the Anchor claws. Also as a suggestion for the Warp field generator, I took some direction from the void shield generator.

Defiler....................... 150 points
Wargear:
Hull Mounted Twin-linked Hades Auto-Cannon
Sponson Mounted Reaper Autocannon
Sponson Mounted Twin-linked Heavy flammer
Daemonic Possession
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers
Anchor Claws

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
It Will Not Die

Options:
+ May replace Twin-linked Hades AutoCannon with one of the following:
-Twin-linked Ecto-plasm Cannon......... 25 points
-Battle Cannon ........................................ 25 points
-Warpfield Generator............................... 25 points
+ May Replace The Anchor Claws with 2 Power fists............................................................................... 20 points
+May replace Twin-linked Flammer with one of the following:
- Havoc launcher................................................................................................... 5 points
- Power Scourge................................................................................................. 25 points
- Power Fist........................................................................................................... 5 points
+ May replace Reaper Autocannon with one of the following:
- Power Fist............................................................................................................ free
- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter................................................................................... free
- twin-linked Lascannon..................................................................................... 20 points

Anchor claws
the claws replace the 2 power fists, during the movement phase the defiler can declare its using the claws. they allow the defiler fire the battle cannon and its additional weapons without penalty furthermore the defiler can fire the additional weapons again that turn. however while the claws are in use it treated as WS0,cannot move that turn and looses its cover save.

Warpfeild generator
Has a 6" range from the Defiler in all directions. Any unit that suffers a shooting attack that originates from outside of this area counts has having a 4+ invulnerable save.

- The claws are too good for their downside, imo. Being able to fire all your weapons at full BS is good enough- being able to fire them all at full BS and than fire them all again is too much for simply being gak at melee for a turn. Between that and the bubble-shield, the way this unit is going to be set-up is as the center of a gun-line, which means it's going to be bubble-wrapped at all times. No one's getting into melee with it anyway. As well, now that the Battle Cannon is an optional choice, the main thing this was supposed to alleviate, ordnance rules, isn't quite as big of a deal.

I'd replace it with:

The player must activate the Defiler's Anchor-Claws at the start of its movement phase. When activated, the Defiler counts as immobilized, but adds +1 to its ballistic skill characteristic (this also effects snap-shots). The effects of Anchor Claws last until the beginning of the player's next turn."

- This is more of a nitpick, but I think giving it both Reaper and Hades autocannons is confusing- I forsee a lot of people going back to their book multiple times thinking "okay which autocannon do the sponsons have? Oh right that kind, how is it different from the other autocannon? Oh right."

I think it'd be better to just pick one type of autocannon and give it two sets of them.

- Does the Warp Field stack with other invulns? T-Sons would be stupidly durable by flanking one of these guys. It's too cheap regardless. The Dark Angels power-field generator casts a 3'' 4++ bubble for 30 points, and works on a by-model basis. With a 6'' bubble and a by-unit basis, this wargear should cost 50 points minimum. Keep in mind that if my prior concern is true, you can have three T-Son units walking in front of and alongside one Defiler with this item, and they'll all have a 2+ invulnerable save.

With a 6'' bubble and by-unit selection, you're going to have to up the price. But as far the the effect, I would change it so that it either merely increases an invulnerable save by 1 (giving a unit without one a 6++), or keep it at a 4++ bubble, but with the specification that it does not stack. A unit that already has an invuln must use the better one.

Addressing some points bought up

claws only allow you to fire the secondary weapons twice, you don't get double battle cannon rounds. bubble wrap don't help as the defiler looses its cover save when deploying the claws so its not just gak at melee its gak at surviving return fire. your suggestion of +1 to snapshots is a good idea but that also makes the defiler BS2 against flyers. while the codex needs some better anti air the defiler in fluff and function was designed to break fortresses not be a flak platform with legs. also havoc launchers still wont be able to fire due to snap shot rules, and that's currently the favoured load out. And it throws a lot of blast template death in a general direction.

also a PFG on dark angels costs 95 points base on a Liberian, we are talking something twice the price that cannot hide in a unit or provide psychic shenanigans. we didn't go out to make it cheaper we went out to make it better and more worth the points cost.

will try the Maverike rule set up, however at a close inspection I can run the 5 blast defiler (battle cannon +2 havoc launchers) with HB at the low cost of 192pts, this will please the iron warrior player and we don't like pleasing him currently. thankfully he cant use these and his wyverns due to new 7th allies chart (and there was much rejoicing),

BlaxicanX wrote:- The claws are too good for their downside, imo. Being able to fire all your weapons at full BS is good enough- being able to fire them all at full BS and than fire them all again is too much for simply being gak at melee for a turn. Between that and the bubble-shield, the way this unit is going to be set-up is as the center of a gun-line, which means it's going to be bubble-wrapped at all times. No one's getting into melee with it anyway. As well, now that the Battle Cannon is an optional choice, the main thing this was supposed to alleviate, ordnance rules, isn't quite as big of a deal.

I'd replace it with:

The player must activate the Defiler's Anchor-Claws at the start of its movement phase. When activated, the Defiler counts as immobilized, but adds +1 to its ballistic skill characteristic (this also effects snap-shots). The effects of Anchor Claws last until the beginning of the player's next turn."

- This is more of a nitpick, but I think giving it both Reaper and Hades autocannons is confusing- I forsee a lot of people going back to their book multiple times thinking "okay which autocannon do the sponsons have? Oh right that kind, how is it different from the other autocannon? Oh right."

I think it'd be better to just pick one type of autocannon and give it two sets of them.

- Does the Warp Field stack with other invulns? T-Sons would be stupidly durable by flanking one of these guys. It's too cheap regardless. The Dark Angels power-field generator casts a 3'' 4++ bubble for 30 points, and works on a by-model basis. With a 6'' bubble and a by-unit basis, this wargear should cost 50 points minimum. Keep in mind that if my prior concern is true, you can have three T-Son units walking in front of and alongside one Defiler with this item, and they'll all have a 2+ invulnerable save.

With a 6'' bubble and by-unit selection, you're going to have to up the price. But as far the the effect, I would change it so that it either merely increases an invulnerable save by 1 (giving a unit without one a 6++), or keep it at a 4++ bubble, but with the specification that it does not stack. A unit that already has an invuln must use the better one.

Okay clarification: The Warp Field is supposed be on a model by model basis. Not unit. My bad.

Blackskull wrote:Addressing some points bought up

claws only allow you to fire the secondary weapons twice, you don't get double battle cannon rounds. bubble wrap don't help as the defiler looses its cover save when deploying the claws so its not just gak at melee its gak at surviving return fire. your suggestion of +1 to snapshots is a good idea but that also makes the defiler BS2 against flyers. while the codex needs some better anti air the defiler in fluff and function was designed to break fortresses not be a flak platform with legs. also havoc launchers still wont be able to fire due to snap shot rules, and that's currently the favoured load out. And it throws a lot of blast template death in a general direction.

also a PFG on dark angels costs 95 points base on a Liberian, we are talking something twice the price that cannot hide in a unit or provide psychic shenanigans. we didn't go out to make it cheaper we went out to make it better and more worth the points cost.

will try the Maverike rule set up, however at a close inspection I can run the 5 blast defiler (battle cannon +2 havoc launchers) with HB at the low cost of 192pts, this will please the iron warrior player and we don't like pleasing him currently. thankfully he cant use these and his wyverns due to new 7th allies chart (and there was much rejoicing),

Aww, what don't you like about the Iron Warrior player?

I have a thought about the Anchor claws, but I want to see how your play testing goes. Please submit the battle report via the form I set up.

mike is our iron warrior player, he enjoys making unassailable fortresses, with a ton of ordnance. said ordnance is used to destroy transports and once everything is destroyed and exposed he deploys drakes to clean up what left. plus he likes power units.

because we like large games on our 6x6 table with 4 players he can generally be an donkey-cave from the safety of his corner. hence anything we can do to displease him we try to do, cause that's what a friend should do

NEWSFLASH

I have 6 people playing system of treachery at my place, will last about a week and a lot of games will be played. its a home brew system where you conquer the galaxy often by forming alliances and back stabbing them later.

in short lots of games and play testing

we start with 3 planets and 3 ships each lead by a commander. planets generate points each turn and you use your ships to move units and points to other planets.
Standard planet = 200pts
Hive world = 400pts but only can build infantry units
Forge world = 400pts but only for vehicle units

when you land on an occupied square battle commences and we set up the board as dictated by that planets card and we them play on it victor obtains the planet and its orbital defence weapons and uses them to blow away the enemy into retreat.

the players

player 1 me
Army Zenmarines (CSM)
commanders
Lord blackskull
Plasma pistol, sigil, deamonheart, MoN, Slaughterer horns, Bike, meltabombs, blade of the relentless.
Zurk The Herald of the end
Dark apostle, AoBF, brand and juggernught
(our system allows dark apostles to use steeds and project a 6 inch ld10 bubble)
Prince Lucan
Slaneshi daemon price with, wings, armour, Black mace, ML3, and familiar

Player 2 Mike
Army Iron warriors
Commanders
Warpsmith Hotep
5x thralls, MoT, aura of dark glory, Brand
Warpsmith Pythor
5x thralls, MoT, aura of dark glory, combi plasma, Scrolls of magnus
Warpsmith Grix
5x thralls, MoT, aura of dark glory, combi plasma, Black mace
(thralls, servitor stat line armed with bolters, they can sacrifice themselves to remove all status effects from a vehicle except weapon destroyed and if its a daemon bestow a +1 boost to its next IWND roll)

Player 3 Danny
Army Tyranids
Commanders
Big Louie
Hive tyrant with Wings, 2 TL devourers, and Ymgarl factor
Gordo
tyranid prime with maw claws of thyrax and lashwhip and bonesword
Shiva
Trygon prime, with reaper of obliterax, and miasma cannon
(the trygon prime we are letting him use as a commander cause Shiva is a WYSIWYG model and looks awesome, also to help with the fails of his codex, synapse units have eternal warrior, simple yet effective fix)

Player 4 Carl
Army ORKS!!!
Commanders
Boss Grimskull
mega armor, bosspole, cybork, Da Dead Shiny Shoota. lucky stick
Mek Greengutz
the fixer uppers, bosspole
Boss Drakken
Gazbags Blitzbike, headwhoopas killchoppa, attack squig

Player 5 Charlotte
Army Eldar
commanders
The Avatar Of Khane
Farseer Nalaar
Singing Spear ,Runes of warding, Ghosthelm,Rune armour,The Spirit Stone of Anath’lan, Faolchu’s Wing
Autarch Tamyo
Uldanorethi Long Rifle, jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, reaper laucher, fusion gun.

player 6 Gareth
Army, Iron Hands
Chapter master Bane
chains of the gorgon, TH, LC, bike, Artificer armour
Liberarian Horathor
Terminator armour, ML2, stormshield and mindforge stave
Forge master Raul
Bike, conversion beamer, the iron stone

I haven't read it all yet, so you might have ccovered this stuff, but...

The major flaws of the CSM codex in my eyes is that it really has no way of taking out monsterous creatures (lack of poison and snipers) and it has no way of dealing with AV 14 beyond Lascannons and some luck if you don't want to get up close and personal with melta weapons. (I just read the Oblits rules. That AV14 problem seems to be solved)

Mark of Tzeentch is never taken on minis that don't already have an inv save, because a 6++ is mostly useless. Ity should give a 5++ if no other inv save is availabble, but it should probably be paid for accordingly. If the rule is good enough, people won't mind anyway.

Possessed are simply overpriced in our current dex. If 10 points were dropped from their cost I might consider them, but anything less makes me go nope. The other alternative is to keep their cost, but to beef up their T and W to make them worth the ridiulous amounts of points they cost.

Mark of Slaanesh should give HQ choices access to Sonic weaponry, as should Obliterators with the Mark of Slaanesh.

I like what you've done though

Isbjornen wrote:
I haven't read it all yet, so you might have ccovered this stuff, but...

The major flaws of the CSM codex in my eyes is that it really has no way of taking out monsterous creatures (lack of poison and snipers) and it has no way of dealing with AV 14 beyond Lascannons and some luck if you don't want to get up close and personal with melta weapons. (I just read the Oblits rules. That AV14 problem seems to be solved)

No worries. 10 pages here can become a lot to try and catch up on.

Isbjornen wrote:

Mark of Tzeentch is never taken on minis that don't already have an inv save, because a 6++ is mostly useless. Ity should give a 5++ if no other inv save is availabble, but it should probably be paid for accordingly. If the rule is good enough, people won't mind anyway.

The problem with Tzeentch is it's a cool concept, but very hit or miss on implementation. The blessings of a god of magic and knowledge? Sweet! Those concepts have some of the best advantages! but in game... um... well we tend to fall into extremes. It's either really good to the point of potentially game breaking or well just kind of lame. Right now we have the latter. a 6++... yeah. it's a 6++. That's nice. But... yeah. I'll take T5 over a 6++. However, just changing it to say a 5++... is just kind of lame and lazy. I'll be honest and say I dont another option for this one. Every idea I've come up with in the last 6 months have been ones that would be cool in a much much smaller game, say Kill team or maybe even a death watch rpg game. But on a game the scale of 40k... they would quickly become either game breaking or game ruining.

Isbjornen wrote:

Possessed are simply overpriced in our current dex. If 10 points were dropped from their cost I might consider them, but anything less makes me go nope. The other alternative is to keep their cost, but to beef up their T and W to make them worth the ridiulous amounts of points they cost.

Possessed have a problem, and that problem is they're really cool thematic idea. Imagine you're playing a single player game, we'll say they make a sequel to Space Marine. And you're playing it and you come up against a Possessed Chaos Marine! Something that has the brutal force and survivability of a space marine coupled with daemonic energies and powers. Okay, that's a cool idea for a boss fight. But but again, like the Mark of Tzeentch when it applied to units in a game the scale of a typical 40k game... yeah that cool boss fight suddenly becomes a lot more convoluted to implement. So, I've been trying to read up on possessed and try to get a better idea of what Possessed are story wise, and then try to rebuild the unit on a game level. Sadly... story wise they seem to be nearly exclusively opposed to what they appear to be in-game (The exception being in The First Heretic). all of the instances of Possessed I've seen in books (Again excepting First Heretic), possessed more like a librarian in a space marine story, as a singled adviser or navigator. Not as a combat unit in their own right.

Isbjornen wrote:

Mark of Slaanesh should give HQ choices access to Sonic weaponry, as should Obliterators with the Mark of Slaanesh.

No. Not in this book. That will be in Books of Chaos. Not renegades. Books of Chaos is where you'll be able to run Sonic Dreadnought, Screamer Lords and god specified armies with the associated upgrades and specialties. Renegades is about pulling various different units together as an army. It's not about running a mono-god or Legion based list. Those jobs will be handled by the other books respectively.

Isbjornen wrote:

I like what you've done though

Thanks. By all means post more thoughts or suggestions. If you want to play test some stuff please do. Just submit the battle report through the website I set up for this project.

Use this link if you pre-typed the battle report in say word or something and you have a file to send.

Use this link if you don't have a pre-made file to send me. Just fill out each section on the pages and click submit.

























oh secondary point. Mark of Khorne on walkers. When I originally made it, giving walkers Hammer of Wrath seemed like a good idea. Oh wait, then 7th ed came out and walkers have hammer of wrath because they are walkers (Foo), So I've been trying to figure out something to replace. I think I finally hit on a good idea. Mark of Khorne gives walkers Rampage. Thoughts on that?

All Deamon Engines should have rampage stock IMO, but hey, i like that.

A bit dissapointed that kharn din't get a redo, bumpong him to 185pts and give him Eternal Warrior and a 2+ or a 4++ save, its a freakin Great crusade Captain for Khorne's ballsacks sake...

Also a lot of those sheets arn't readable, they are too small to read, at least for me wich is a shame.

Also Dark Apotheosis should be changed to work like in Battle, Lord Change iinto Deamon?, it keeps his wargear, powers and rules.

The stupidest thing i've ever seen in my life is this rule..., "Oh great Dark Lords i'm becoming Immortal and Powerfull!!!!"..." wait, why did i forget my Psy powers?, and why can't i use my weapons?..."

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
All Deamon Engines should have rampage stock IMO, but hey, i like that.

While I can understand the logic behind that statement, I feel it's that same logic to led to the current charlie-foxtrot we have in the codex. Why should the gun toting Forge Fiend have rampage for instance? It's not a CC monster. Hell according to the fluff it tries to stay out of combat.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

A bit dissapointed that kharn din't get a redo, bumpong him to 185pts and give him Eternal Warrior and a 2+ or a 4++ save, its a freakin Great crusade Captain for Khorne's ballsacks sake...

And so are Typhus, Fabius Bile and Lucien. Hell, Huron was a chapter master. There has to be line drawn somewhere otherwise every character in the book will be 185+ across the board. This is one of the big challenges I've been encountering with this project. While it's fairly easy to make these sorts of arguments for units in isolation of the rest of the codex, when you go back and look at all the units you suddenly realize how much of a problem you made.

Another example is the cult troops and how there are multiple justifications for every one of them to have feel no pain.








Berzerkers should have it because they're just too damned crazed to notice they've been wounded in the first place. So they should have Feel No pain.






Plague Marines should have feel no pain because they are so bloated and nerve deadened because they would literally feel no pain so if it doesn't kill them out right, it doesn't stop them either. So, they should have feel no pain.








Noise Marines should have feel no pain because they're so waked out on combat drugs and stimulants and sensations that pain is actually a good thing to them so they would effectively ignore pain for game mechanics. So they should have feel no pain.








Thousand Sons are literally nothing but empty suits of armor with no nerves or even bodies to feel pain or register damage. The only way to stop them is to actually destroy them. So they should have feel no pain.





In isolation the arguments are solid and make a lot of sense. But look at what just happened when you go back to army level. Suddenly half your bloody army has feel no pain and it's not even actually what Feel No Pain should be.

Why do I have such a problem with this? Because I have played way too many games, against way too many opponents, way too many times where my shooting phase goes as follows:

I'm double tapping with my bikers bolters, and I hit you....
Those bolters are twin-lined so I'm re-rolling all of those misses.
And on the re-roll I get a nice and solid 18 hits.
Rolling to wound.... and I've hit you with a lot of fire power for 14 wounds.

(Enemy has a character in the squad.)
Okay, I'm going to 'look out sir'.... (rolls a 5)
Okay I'm gonna take that wound on this guy, who makes his armor save.
I'm going to take the next wound on this guy who fails his armor save.
So now I'll take his Feel no pain save. Which he makes.
The next shot is against this guy, which he passes.
That next shot is gonna go on this guy who just failed his armor save.
But he's got Feel No pain, which he makes.
Next Shot, armor save fails.
But I've got a Feel no pain, which he just passed.
Next shot is on this dude, who failed his armor save.
But I'm rolling his feel no pain, which he failed.
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
and it goes on for the remaining 8 shots making this one round of shooting against one target squad from one squad just literally take 10 minutes and resulted in a net achievement of 2 deaths in a squad of 9 guys.


Sure, Berzerkers will ignore flesh wounds and minor injuries. How does the game differentiate between a flesh wound and a mortal one? Oh the double toughness rule you say? Don't get feel no pain saves against stuff that would be S8? That's nice. So plasma guns that fire white hot balls of energized plasma that can vaporize space marines.... a shot from that can just be walked off? But a lascannon shot to the foot... that'll kill the berzerker out right. And sure there are stories about berzerkers getting their legs sliced off and continuing to fight, but those stories fall under a category of theme known as dramatic license. and it's something I've seen abused way way way way way WAY too much in the last two editions and used as justification for what should otherwise be unbelievably isolated cases of extremeness. Like taking Goku as an example of a standard sayian and basing an entire army of Sayians off of him. He's not standard. Period.

Like wise with Plague marines, stuff like Flamers and Plasma guns should be wicked dangerous to the likes of plague marines. Oh, you feel very little pain because you're bloated and infested? THat's nice. EAT BURNING PROMETHIUM AND SUPER-HEATED PLASMA!!!!!!!!! Oh... you can ignore that pain huh? um... why? And so it goes on.

On an individual basis, yes I agree that Kharn deserves to be upped to a Tier 3 or perhaps even a Tier 4 character with a 2+/4++ and Eternal warrior.

But I also feel that Lucius, Typhus, Fabius Bile and Huron should like wise be Tier 3 and Tier 4 characters as well. So... yeah Chaos just won't get anything in the way of a Tier 1 or 2 character.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Also a lot of those sheets arn't readable, they are too small to read, at least for me wich is a shame.

Are you clicking on the preview images or on the link below the preview image?


Preview image:

link below preview: Abaddon the Despoiler Version 2.0

The preview image just links to a 72 PPI resolution version which with denser text can be come unreadable. The link below links to a 300 PPI resolution version which is readable, is a bit large to deal with on a normal computer screen.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Also Dark Apotheosis should be changed to work like in Battle, Lord Change iinto Deamon?, it keeps his wargear, powers and rules.

The stupidest thing i've ever seen in my life is this rule..., "Oh great Dark Lords i'm becoming Immortal and Powerfull!!!!"..." wait, why did i forget my Psy powers?, and why can't i use my weapons?..."

I was having a huge back and forth about the Chaos Boons table over on Bolter and Chainsword. I haven't had the time to compile it and I'm hoping I'll be able to do so next week, but the general direction is that Dark Apotheosis is going bye-bye and the table will be reduced to a 3D6 table with results 3-14 being nothing.

Abaddon should be brought up to "Lords of War" level, like Draigo and Warboss Ghazghkull.

Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote:
Abaddon should be brought up to "Lords of War" level, like Draigo and Warboss Ghazghkull.

Yup.

Okay I know it's been a while, and for that I appologize. Starting a new job, dealing with my dad getting a new heart valve, and then with my mom getting a new knee. So yeah... time went bye bye for me. But I've gotten some work done. I'll elaborate:


First thing: Ahriman. I had originally added a Spell familar to Ahriman and had intended to make it more then just a regular spell familiar. Well whatever my original thought was, it has been lost. So for the moment, Aepio counts as both a spell familiar and a Combat familiar. I'm not totally sold on this approach, and I may return to it later. I'm just not sure what to do with it. Still keeping the option that if you take Ahriman you gain the ability to upgrade Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers to Mastery Level 2 for 15 points. Giving the ability to upgrade for free seemed too game breaking while making it the standard 25 points per seemed like too much of an extra tax on top of buying Ahriman.


Next thing, Obliterators. The Obliterator weapon levels still bother me but for reasons i can't really explain. I like giving them the ability to purchase additional capabilities in terms of weapons, better to represent the older more capable Obliterators that would be in more demand but harder to convince to join the respective Warlord.


Chaos Chosen, I upped their Max size to 20. Nothing more to say there.

here are the two big things I've managed to hammer out in the last 6 hours:

The Chaos Boon Table: That has been dramatically reduced in size going from 30 results to a far more manageable 10 options. The Dark Apotheosis result is still the big one you really want to hit, but is no longer the "Hey you just went full on slow daemon prince!" Now, it's what was the Multiple boob result with acquiring D3+1 boon rolls.

Lost and Damned section 1, includes the Chaos Boon Table.

Lastly, I had half an idea for the Mutilators and that is making them better versions of what they are through the replacement of the generic "two X Weapons" with more characterful, and deadlier manifestation weapons. Something closer to the upgraded weapon options for the Obliters, these new weapon options still cover the gamut from many smaller attacks to massive heavy hitting attacks intended to rip apart armor.

Mutilator Spread

As always, feed back and battle reports are greatly encouraged.

Just tested out the latest revision of the Obliterators in a 2000 point game, taking 2 groups of 2 Obliterators with the Mark of Nurgle and Level 3 Upgrades.

Even though they made up a large chunk of the points, the level 3 stuff combined with Divination from a TzHerald was way too strong. Playing against an Eldar army, they were able to tear apart his 2 Wave Serpents in the first turn of the game (thanks to getting ignores cover from Divination), and then after killing his Wraithknight on turn 2 proceeded to further decimate his army on turns 3 and 4 with baleflamers and reapers.

They were so effective that the rest of my army didn't really have to do anything. I captured objectives, sent Be'lakor into a straggling unit or two and just rolled dice at him. Even while being insanely expensive, it was too much for his army to handle.

Honestly, I'd rather have the current Codex option reduced in points to 60, make the Fearless version with non-random weapons 70, and then adding the ability to buy another weapon for some variable amount of points per, like Reaper Autocannons, Ectoplasma Cannons, or a Baleflamer.

Heya,

Regarding Ahriman and his upgrades:

1.) Spell Familiar + Combat Familiar is fine.

2.) Book-keeping is an issue and a hassle if you play Ahriman and lots of other psykers.. Making the Aspiring Sorcerers higher mastery level is not a solution to this. The only good solution imo is to make the spells that you must take better in the first place, so that at least if you have to remember who has what at only Mastery Level 1, at least you love the spells. Just ML: 1 is fine for them to speed the game along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Code: Crimson, how did you give the Obliterators Perfect Timing with the Tzerald?

 Code: Crimson wrote:
Even though they made up a large chunk of the points, the level 3 stuff combined with Divination from a TzHerald was way too strong. Playing against an Eldar army, they were able to tear apart his 2 Wave Serpents in the first turn of the game (thanks to getting ignores cover from Divination), and then after killing his Wraithknight on turn 2 proceeded to further decimate his army on turns 3 and 4 with baleflamers and reapers.

They were so effective that the rest of my army didn't really have to do anything. I captured objectives, sent Be'lakor into a straggling unit or two and just rolled dice at him. Even while being insanely expensive, it was too much for his army to handle.

Okay, I'll be honest with a statement like that I don't actually want to ask for more details about the game. aaaaaaaaand scapping that version of the oblits. Might make that a formation or something though. time will tell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the Mutilators. After going back and looking at the weapons I came up with for them… yeah. They’re just not working. So I’ve revamped the Mutis returning their weapons options to what is in the book as it stands. But that still brings us back to the problem with the Mutis in the beginning: They’re assault specialists… that can’t reliably assault. Being slow and Purposeful meant they can’t run so they’re limited to the 6″ move followed by a charge if they were in range, which becomes a big if.

One person on Facebook recommended giving them fleet and while that would address the problem, something about it didn’t sit right with me. I just couldn’t reconcile the visual image of this massive lumbering daemon/mecha monster barreling forward into a charge. And then I was watching Transformers Beast Wars. The character of Optimus Primal transforms into a Gorilla and in the 2nd half of the premier episode everyone was fighting in their beast forms. Optimus knuckled charged across the field to slam into Megatron. Suddenly it semi-clicked. I wasn’t totally sure until I went to work. We have a clip from the 2005 King Kong playing in the theater department and I happened to catch it as I was helping a customer. That was what got the image for me! That’s how Mutilators will count as beasts! They’re not fast running four legged horses or cheetahs. They’re barreling monsters that slam into their enemy. So I’ve made Mutilators Beasts AND to represent the ‘smashing’ of said charging, they now get hammer of wrath.

But this leads to a bit of an issue: pricing on the Mutilators. See Mutilators are 55 points. Or rather in the standard Codex they are. But they’re also Slow and Purposeful there. Removing that rule basically doubles their move rate and then giving them Hammer of Wrath gives them an extra attack when they charge (Yes yes I know it’s not a +1 attack but seriously, you know what I mean). So… what’s a good price for that break down? Well here’s the logic I followed:

Removed Slow and Purposeful: +5 points
Changed type to Beast: +10 points
Gained Hammer of Wrath: +5 points
Gained Fearless: +5 points
Went up to LD 9 base: +10 points

Giving us a net increase of +35 points. So I set the Mutis at 80 points each. What do you think of that? Agree or disagree with my logic?

High Res version


Oh and Obliterators got re-worked too.

High Res version

Got any plans/ideas for reworking the Chaos psyker powers table? That can go a lon way toward making marker psykers viable, and Thousand Sons interesting. I really like the idea of letting Aspiring sorcerers re-roll their Tzeentch power, s they might still be restricted but have some flexibility and purpose.

 Sephyr wrote:

Got any plans/ideas for reworking the Chaos psyker powers table? That can go a lon way toward making marker psykers viable, and Thousand Sons interesting. I really like the idea of letting Aspiring sorcerers re-roll their Tzeentch power, s they might still be restricted but have some flexibility and purpose.

Already did revamp the Tzeentch Table at least partially anyway. Haven't really seem much reason to look at Nurgle or Slaanesh. Still a bit torn on the 1 result on the Tzeentch table.

A bit of feedback I got on Bolterandchainsword regarding the mutilators: What about comparing them to Thunderwolves for the pricing? Well, I hadn’t considered that and it seemed like, if nothing else, it would be a worthwhile exercise. So I went through and did just that.
So a comparison of Thunderwolves to Mutilators (version 1.5).
So first off stats:
Thunderwolves are:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 5
T: 5
W: 2
I: 4
A: 4 (Yes I even double checked this)
LD: 9
Sv: 3+
While Mutilators are
WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 4
T: 4
W: 2
I: 4
A: 2
LD: 9
Sv: 2+/5++
Unit types:

Thunderwolves are Cavalry, meaning they move 12” in the movement phase, and are not slowed by difficult terrain but treat it as dangerous terrain instead so they have a 1/6 chance of wounding themselves if they charge through terrain.
Mutilators by contrasts are beasts, so they move 12” and ignore the effect of difficult terrain entirely.
Special rules:

Thunderwolves get And they shall know no fear and all the benefits associated with that. They have acute senses so if they outflank they get to re-roll which table edge they come in on. Nice plus. Thunderwolves also get counter attack so they almost always have a nice battery of attacks to dish out.

Mutilators get Fearless so they basically will never break. They also get hammer of wrath so a nice extra when they charge. They also have the daemon special so they get a 5++ and fear. Nice extras. Nothing really pants-droppingly great but nothing to sneeze at either.

Okay so the differences we have thus far are:

Thunderwolves: Get 3 more attacks that they will almost always have, a higher strength, a higher toughness, but risk injuring themselves when/if they move through difficult terrain.
Mutilators by comparison get a better save, fearless, fear, a 5++ invulnerable save, and their swiss army knife of weapon choices while ignoring difficult terrain effects.
Thunderwolves are 40 points while mutilators are 80. Okay, so twice the points for an invulnerable save, fear, fearless, immunity to difficult terrain and a choice of weapons but compared to a greater number of attacks with better survivability.

At first view it seems like the Thunderwolves are crazy under-priced compared to Mutilators, or that Mutilators are stupidly over-costed when looked at in the opposite way. But there are other things to consider with pricing: The units role in the army and the unit implied scarcity in the army. In days past the later was handled with a limitation on how many of a unit you could take, Raptors were once a 0-1 limited unit meaning you could only have a single unit of raptors unless you were playing Night Lords. These days, that sort of limitation isn’t used much in going for a limit of 1 per army, by including the designator of being ‘unique’, or no limit at all. The only real limiter in a non-unique unit is the price of the unit with some accommodation for the price of the kit itself.

Well here is where we start getting quit subjective: What IS the role of mutilators in a Chaos Renegades army and how scarce are they? The former is somewhat easier to answer but is harder to justify, what do Mutilators do in an army? Well they kill things, right? Yeah it’s not that simple, because anything in the Chaos Army is capable of killing things. But take Cultists for example. Sure they’re capable of killing things. But they’re not terribly good at it since the majority of armies have a Space Marine base to them or can drastically outshoot cultists long before the cultists can charge being able to make use of their numbers. Thus why Cultists are generally regarded as bullet sponges.

Mutilators are, what I call, a omni-option meaning they have the capacity to stand a reasonable chance against nearly anything in the game. Charging a Tank? They’ve got a weapon for that. Dealing with squad of infantry? They have a tool to address that. Attacking a monsterous creature? Yep they got a weapon for that. Now their usability in all of those situations becomes more dubious based on conditions. If a pair of Mutis go against say the Swarm Lord… hmm chances are they’re coming out on the loosing end of that fight thanks to the Lords higher initiative and better save potential.

So Mutilators are really more a killer unit of opportunity. You really want to pick your target with them. They don’t have the number of attacks to deal with massed horde unit like hormagaunts and there are plenty of characters, both special and generic, that will hit first with killing blows against them. And anything that can get around their armor saves leaves them hurting.

Now the question of scarcity. Here is where we get REALLY subjective. Mutilators are a fairly new unit to the 40k universe. To my knowledge, there’s never been a mention of a mutilator in the books as a unit proper but rather in-story notations about “The Obliterator mutilated the unit” for the most part. So it’s fairly hard to point to much information regarding how rare or common Mutilators really are in a Chaos army so I’ll look at Obliterators and try to make some educated guessed based on them. In several books the Chaos forces use Obliterators but there’s little mention of how many are actually there. There are either “Several” or a single monster. In the context of an army this leads me to believe that Obliterators while uncommon are not hard to find and whatever scarcity they do have, is attributed more to their isolated nature more than a numbers thing.

I think Mutilators have a comparable situation, they’re not everywhere but they’re not super-rare either. I would gauge Mutilators/obliterators being a bit less common to forces of Chaos then Thunder Wolf cavalry are to the Space Wolves.
So with all this in mind, I think that the price of 80 points per Mutilator is fair until you compare it to other armies. Here is where the prices get rather wonky. I will say that I feel that Thunderwolves are under costs and really should be about 50-60 points and that’s about the same price I’m thinking Mutilators should be after this comparison.

I also looked at comparing Mutilators to Assault Centurions and Tyranid Warriors as bases of comparisons. While I could go through the entire process for those units, nothing much really changes my final thoughts about the Mutilators. I’m still looking at a price of between 50 and 60 points for a mutilator. As I get games in and I hear back from others trying them out in games I’ll probably adjust it a bit more by a couple points up or down.

So, version 1.6 of the Mutilators!

Quicky little update: Fixed pricing for additional Mutilators. View on website.