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ICs can never join a unit that can only consist of one model. This stops them from attaching to characters that are not ICs, MCs that can only be taken in a brood of 1, be happy we can't attch Primes to Tyrannos, and other various units that are balanced because they are one model.

 ductvader wrote:
ICs can never join a unit that can only consist of one model. This stops them from attaching to characters that are not ICs, MCs that can only be taken in a brood of 1, be happy we can't attch Primes to Tyrannos, and other various units that are balanced because they are one model.

They need to faq riptides

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
ICs can never join a unit that can only consist of one model. This stops them from attaching to characters that are not ICs, MCs that can only be taken in a brood of 1, be happy we can't attch Primes to Tyrannos, and other various units that are balanced because they are one model.

They need to faq riptides

Trust me I know...at Adepticon we faced Grav Centurions and attached our Ethereals to our Riptides...hilarity ensued.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
For a core, I would go farseer+20 guardians+2 lances, 2 lords with dual lances, dual flamers and ghostglaives if points allow, then 3 scatter walkers. To round out scoring, dire avengers do quite well on foot, exarch with shimmershield depending on your playstyle and meta. Warp spiders and swooping hawks are fantastic at their respective roles; warp spiders soft counter everything but Av14 and hordes, hawks hard counter AV14 and hordes. Shining spears are decent, and even scorpions can be okay. Rangers and jetbikes can round out your scoring by hiding in reserve and turbo boosting/outflanking. Reapers are okay, but be careful with the. Avoid banshees like the plague; harlequins are not much better.

I appreciate your point of view and think that you found many ways what "works" and what doesn't in an Eldar army list. However I disagree with you here on the Banshees because of the circumstances, that is fielding an foot army.

1. Especially when there are many T3 models around, Banshees won't be seen as a decisive threat from the opponent.
2. They have great mobility to exploit possible line of sight-blockers.
3. You absolutely need close combat-orientated unit types when your army is mainly on foot to prevent you being crushed slowly by your opponents' melee units.
4. Said melee units wear often various types of protection in order to get them through the hostile fire phases and overwatch. Power swords can diminish this protection, especially in conjunction with a Farseer nearby and a possible Warlock (you take them at least with the big Guardian squads) with Weaken Armor. The synergy is much better than the Scorpions one who can stay on their own quite effectively.

Suite wrote:

 Dr. Serling wrote:
For a core, I would go farseer+20 guardians+2 lances, 2 lords with dual lances, dual flamers and ghostglaives if points allow, then 3 scatter walkers. To round out scoring, dire avengers do quite well on foot, exarch with shimmershield depending on your playstyle and meta. Warp spiders and swooping hawks are fantastic at their respective roles; warp spiders soft counter everything but Av14 and hordes, hawks hard counter AV14 and hordes. Shining spears are decent, and even scorpions can be okay. Rangers and jetbikes can round out your scoring by hiding in reserve and turbo boosting/outflanking. Reapers are okay, but be careful with the. Avoid banshees like the plague; harlequins are not much better.

I appreciate your point of view and think that you found many ways what "works" and what doesn't in an Eldar army list. However I disagree with you here on the Banshees because of the circumstances, that is fielding an foot army.

1. Especially when there are many T3 models around, Banshees won't be seen as a decisive threat from the opponent.
2. They have great mobility to exploit possible line of sight-blockers.
3. You absolutely need close combat-orientated unit types when your army is mainly on foot to prevent you being crushed slowly by your opponents' melee units.
4. Said melee units wear often various types of protection in order to get them through the hostile fire phases and overwatch. Power swords can diminish this protection, especially in conjunction with a Farseer nearby and a possible Warlock (you take them at least with the big Guardian squads) with Weaken Armor. The synergy is much better than the Scorpions one who can stay on their own quite effectively.

Your main problem is this...what do banshees do well?

Kill Marines.

What doesn't Eldar have a problem doing?

Killing Marines

EDIT: Personally, when I add specialty units to my Eldar, I add them to balance against the two armies I think are Eldar's biggest threats. Necrons and Tau. Thus my personal inclusion of Swooping Hawks (Sunrifle), and a Nightspinner (hahaha...Wraiths are cute)
If you really want to kill marines really well, spears are a better bet, but take up that fast slot...

Banshees are a decent unit in melee which is what only few Eldar units are. It's not about the mathematical approach of statistically kill the most "Marines" (or other types) but rather the security of your own deployment zone/objective holders. Can War Walkers or Warp Spiders accomplish this if the enemy is already on the gates?

Suite wrote:
Banshees are a decent unit in melee which is what only few Eldar units are. It's not about the mathematical approach of statistically kill the most "Marines" (or other types) but rather the security of your own deployment zone/objective holders. Can War Walkers or Warp Spiders accomplish this if the enemy is already on the gates?

I'm going to stop you right there...if marines are "at the gates" all those Guardians will ruin them.

I get that you're looking to favor banshees as a counterassault unit...but they just don't do it well enough...why no grenades?

The simple fact is, Killing marines is not hard for most Eldar units. Spiders, Wraith, Dragons, Guardians, Avengers, Scorpions, Spears, Even Hawks do it well. ANd if you still have the heavy slot, dark reapers will tear them up more reliably than Banshees ever would. (Especially since most competitive marines are on bikes)

@Serling Harlequinns can be great with some tricksy additions like the Fuegan loadout.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:
Banshees are a decent unit in melee which is what only few Eldar units are.

Most Eldar units are decent in Melee, I actually play Storm Guardians with a Warlock and consistently hit assault well with them.

Banshees are great in melee:
If they're facing marines.
If they're not running through cover.
If they survived.

I say...just put Jain Zarr in a Shimmershield Dire Avenger Squad. Now you can kill terminators and marines with similar ease.

And if only two or three "Marines" (or some other guys) do get into close combat with your foot Guardians, this squad and it's heavy weapons won't come out of it. I don't care in this situation how many enemies "better" Eldar units can kill because it helps me by no means in this situation. Maybe it's just me but I play Footdar all the time and my opponents always find a way to get into close combat with my troops.

Of course is Marine killing not that hard on paper. But wrecking light transports isn't also. Why would one stacking up Serpents with Scatter Lasers then? The point is not about killing Marines (or other unit types!) but rather protect your ranks.

I fail to see how Fire Dragons (on foot), Wraithguard (on foot) or Hawks do even remotely well against Marines (once again, my posts are not about Marines).

Most Eldar units are not decent at all in melee. I'm curious why you go for Storm Guardians but refuse to even think about Banshees in this regard. Banshees can wreck almost anything with proper psychic support and yes, without Jain Zar. 10 Storm Guardians with Warlock and two flamers cost 140 points, 10 Banshees with Exarch and Powerblade 170. For my needs Banshees do enough to justify them as a counter-assault unit. Scorpions do also but are a bit more limited in what they can achieve in this role.

Storm Guardians are scoring and can tote Melta Guns or Flamers (and I use them via Mechdar)

And we stack serpents with scatter lasers not because of it's damage but because of its multiplier on the shield gun.

Scorpions can infiltrate, have a 3+, stealth, and can take a scorpion claw. EDIT:...and have grenades!

My biggest problem with taking Banshees or Scorpions - or, hell, even Storm Guardians (though I'm not lacking on old weapon sprues) - is that I'm still not convinced of melee in current 40K. The army I love most is Orks, and they're on the shelf because I feel like I have to shoot to be competitive with them (by which I mean pretty much only shoot, not have some shooting mixed in with the melee). But it's a valid point that shuriken catapults, Warp Spiders' guns, and a number of other things in the army can shred Marines, especially at close range. Heck, I took out three Terminators with about six Guardians (the brightlance refused to be useful) and a Warlock (actually, his Spear took out the first guy, I remember cheering because it was a guy with storm shield and that's a 3+ inv. against the s-cats). Dire Avengers have even better range. And then there's Dark Reapers, yeah... switch from Marine-shredding to vehicle-popping and back, if you can stomach the cost for them *and* starshot missiles. But heck, if you can keep them protected, they'll make their points. (I suppose this is another reason I need an Aegis.)

I need to amend my idea from "foot-based" to "Non-Mechanized" as a more honest description. I've got about twelve Jetbikes and three Vypers that might be quite handy at killing stuff and snagging objectives. Also, Swooping Hawks mostly fly, and after looking at their rules, I had to assemble a squad of them last night (might do a second one, too), because they are just prime for fighting an Imperial Guard army between their ridiculous amounts of shots and haywire grenades (yeah, assault a freaking tank with those buggers and it's gone). Hawks aren't quite as good against Marines, but they do still put out 30 shots for a full size unit, and the Exarch can take an AP3 gun, plus they'll still be able to wreck vehicles (hmm, I like the idea of using them to ruin a Dreadnought's day).

After playing with the army, I'm even more excited to try different combinations. I know people swear by Wave Serpents, and I might not be able to win a major tournament doing this, but I'm having fun and it's actually pretty competitive still.

 ErikSetzer wrote:
After playing with the army, I'm even more excited to try different combinations. I know people swear by Wave Serpents, and I might not be able to win a major tournament doing this, but I'm having fun and it's actually pretty competitive still.

Everyone swears by serpents because they are arguably the best thing in the game right now. But, that doesn't make the rest of the Eldar units bad. (Just Banshees)


...and Falcons if your name is ninjafiredragon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
ICs can never join a unit that can only consist of one model. This stops them from attaching to characters that are not ICs, MCs that can only be taken in a brood of 1, be happy we can't attch Primes to Tyrannos, and other various units that are balanced because they are one model.

They need to faq riptides

Is there a reason ICs ever need to be able to join MCs?

Not in Eldar and DEldar can't, Tyranids don't "need" it...just fexes and Primes there. GKs can't. Necrons can't.

ICs shouldn't be able to join a unit that contains an MC or vice versa. Because screw Ovesa and Batmander.

 ductvader wrote:
Is there a reason ICs ever need to be able to join MCs?

Not in Eldar

Spiritseer hooking up with a Wraithlord to cast Conceal and Protect seems like a solid reason to me. Makes more sense that he'd be following a Wraithlord helping it rather than just helping out some Guardians.

If someone has a spot in the rulebook, that'd help. Or a FAQ (I checked the one I'd thankfully downloaded before they were pulled). Can't find something to say either way. But hey, a new edition's out in a couple weeks, so maybe that'll clear it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blah, found it, in the rulebook on page 39, you can't join a unit of a single model. Meh.

But I also found that you can assault one vehicle in a squadron and hurt all of them, which makes Swooping Hawks even more hilariously potent against IG assuming they can get close enough to assault. Since the tanks likely aren't moving, that's 10 auto-hits with haywire grenades, which could likely destroy an entire squadron of Leman Russ tanks. I'm going to have to give that a try in a future game.