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 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
I actually have a question that I haven't yet seen brought up in this often discussed topic, which I will get to in a bit.

GoliothOnline, it is your opinion that the same blessing cast multiple times cannot stack from different sources on a single target correct?

GoliothOnline wrote:Cite me a rule stating the same blessing cast multiple times (And don't bring up that BS about modifiers as they aren't Blessings, they can be provided or lowered due to Blessings.) can stack from different sources on a single target.

I bring it up because it is about to be very relevant. I direct everyone to look at the Telekinesis Psychic Discipline and specifically the Gate of Infinity blessing.

My question is thus: what would happen to a unit that has two Psykers attached to it, both with the Gate of Infinity power and sufficient warp charges, etc. where both Psykers cast Gate of Infinity? Would that unit not then follow the process for resolving the Gate of Infinity power, twice? Once for each casting?

After all, it is the same blessing being cast on the same target from different sources, but according to GoliothOnline and others with the same viewpoint, one would not be able to resolve the second Gate of Infinity power, or rather it would have no effect as the unit already had Gate of Infinity cast upon it before in the same turn.

Gate of Infinity doesn't say that it is cumulative with itself, as is being asked for by some people.

Frankly, I disagree with the notion that the blessing Gate of Infinity wouldn't affect the same unit twice.

If you use the ability and it goes off, you have arrived by deep strike and therefore cannot cast it again. IIRC models arriving by deep strike cannot manifest their powers from from the point of them arriving from Deepstrike until the next turn no?

GoliothOnline wrote:
If you use the ability and it goes off, you have arrived by deep strike and therefore cannot cast it again. IIRC models arriving by deep strike cannot manifest their powers from from the point of them arriving from Deepstrike until the next turn no?

Incorrect. Models arriving from reserves are forbidden from using start of the turn abilities.

Gate of Infinitys effect is over once the units final position is established, so a second GoI is not being cumulative with the first but being used consecutivly after the first.

 Bausk wrote:
Gate of Infinitys Hammerhand's effect is over once the units final position strength is established, so a second GoI Hammerhand is not being cumulative with the first but being used consecutivly after the first.

See what I did there? Seems odd to take one position on GoI and a completely opposite one on Hammerhand (which isn't even a blessing but being used to illustrate a point).

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Gate of Infinitys Hammerhand's effect is over once the units final position strength is established, so a second GoI Hammerhand is not being cumulative with the first but being used consecutivly after the first.

See what I did there? Seems odd to take one position on GoI and a completely opposite one on Hammerhand (which isn't even a blessing but being used to illustrate a point).

Blessings however have their own ruleset to follow and abide by.

Hammerhand is simply an ability that gets activated. Whether or not multiple models have it in one group means nothing as per its activation and being cumulative since it's not restricted, as blessings are.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Hammerhand is simply an ability that gets activated. Whether or not multiple models have it in one group means nothing as per its activation and being cumulative since it's not restricted, as blessings are.

(Emphasis mine)

I can not find any rules that say what I have underlined. Can we get a quote please.?

Where does it say Blessings are restricted from being cumulative?

P.S. Hammerhand is a Psychic Power.

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Gate of Infinitys Hammerhand's effect is over once the units final position strength is established, so a second GoI Hammerhand is not being cumulative with the first but being used consecutivly after the first.

See what I did there? Seems odd to take one position on GoI and a completely opposite one on Hammerhand (which isn't even a blessing but being used to illustrate a point).

Hammerhands effect is still in effect, GoI finishes its effect once you complete your limited Deepstrike move because its effect is the limited Deepstike move. If you were able to attempt both GoIs at the same time it would result in one limited Deepstrike move. Its not even remotely the same premise as a special (as in unique) +1S modifier that has a duration.

But not a blessing
Its no different in its effect than I would consider the activation of a force weapon with the restriction of requiring a Warp Charge in order to perform in the Assault Phase

Now there's a second one?
No, I refuse to do this again when the last one isn't even over.

GoliothOnline wrote:
But not a blessing
Its no different in its effect than I would consider the activation of a force weapon with the restriction of requiring a Warp Charge in order to perform in the Assault Phase

Still waiting on a quote.

GoliothOnline wrote:
But not a blessing
Its no different in its effect than I would consider the activation of a force weapon with the restriction of requiring a Warp Charge in order to perform in the Assault Phase

Goliath, you have missed something here

Logically, A -> B does not mean that you can say !A -> !B. In other words, just because you are told X can occur has no bearing on whether Y, even when Y is "not X", can occur.

This is logically correct. You are trying to claim that because you are told that different blessings CAN stack, that therefore ONLY different blessings can stack - i.e. same blessings cannot stack. Thisa is a logical fallacy. it is impossible to come to that conclusion logically.

Therefore that is what people are asking you to prove - that there exists a line that states that ONLY different blessings can stack (whcih is equivalent to "same blessings do not stack" when all there is is permission for different, which says nothing about same

When you have a blessing that results in a modifier, there absolutely IS permission, from page 2, to resolve it cumulatively. This is the thrust of the hammerhand thread, where quite a few posters either claim 40k doesnty follow real world maths (it does), that "+" isnt naturally cumulative (it is - by absolute definition of the symbol), or that somehow despite being told to resolve the power, and the resolution beiung a modifier, and you having multiple modifers, somehow you need ANOTHER set of permissions to actually resolve the power. Of course, noone can point to this requirement, just poor assumptions on the no-stack side

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Therefore that is what people are asking you to prove - that there exists a line that states that ONLY different blessings can stack (whcih is equivalent to "same blessings do not stack" when all there is is permission for different, which says nothing about same

You have it right here.

Permission for different to stack.

absolutely no permission for the same to stack. ERGO they don't.

Because it's a permissive rule set.

isn't a shame the pro stacking side can not find any rule or fluff that even hints at same powers being cumulative? all they have is poor assumptions

Eldar psychic powers aren't a good example. The bonuses would stack regardless of interpretation since each power is only cast on the caster itself. Each blessing from Runes of Battle/Fate cast by a Eldar Psyker has a different target so the powers aren't actually stacked on each other. The bonuses would be added together though.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Therefore that is what people are asking you to prove - that there exists a line that states that ONLY different blessings can stack (whcih is equivalent to "same blessings do not stack" when all there is is permission for different, which says nothing about same

You have it right here.

Permission for different to stack.

absolutely no permission for the same to stack. ERGO they don't.

Because it's a permissive rule set.

isn't a shame the pro stacking side can not find any rule or fluff that even hints at same powers being cumulative? all they have is poor assumptions

There is a rule. It has been cited many times, but I can cite it again since you clearly missed it the first hundred times.

If the same power is a stat increase or decrease then they absolutely are cumulative as per page 2 multiple modifiers.

Actual RAW, not any poor assumptions...

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is a rule. It has been cited many times, but I can cite it again since you clearly missed it the first hundred times.

If the same power is a stat increase or decrease then they absolutely are cumulative as per page 2 multiple modifiers.

Actual RAW, not any poor assumptions...

That's odd, my BRB has no such rule in it. Could you cite the page and paragraph?

Although I do see on page 68, under Resolve Psychic Powers, where is does say, "Unless otherwise stated, the benefits or penalties from from different psychic powers are cumulative." Page 2, however, lacks any examples showing two of the same modifier being applied. We are shown how to apply different modifiers, such as a +1 and a x2, but not two x2's or three +1's. Can you cite any examples of multiples of the same modifier being applied?

SJ

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Therefore that is what people are asking you to prove - that there exists a line that states that ONLY different blessings can stack (whcih is equivalent to "same blessings do not stack" when all there is is permission for different, which says nothing about same

You have it right here.

Permission for different to stack.

absolutely no permission for the same to stack. ERGO they don't.

Because it's a permissive rule set.

isn't a shame the pro stacking side can not find any rule or fluff that even hints at same powers being cumulative? all they have is poor assumptions

There is a rule. It has been cited many times, but I can cite it again since you clearly missed it the first hundred times.

If the same power is a stat increase or decrease then they absolutely are cumulative as per page 2 multiple modifiers.

Actual RAW, not any poor assumptions...

so are blessings 'wargear' or 'special rules'?

But since you like context what does the phrase "unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative" mean in context with the rest of the rules?

Pedantic , unfortunately goliathonline, arguing here is like trying to stop a flood with a paper Dixie cup. POINTLESS.

I'm not even sure half the people here play the game, just troll here to argue, for arguments sake. It's best just to play it with your gaming group the way you all can agree on and hope it's addressed when the new addition hits later this month.

I agree with you G.O. as the way it's played and play it that way.

sirlynchmob wrote:
so are blessings 'wargear' or 'special rules'?

No, but they are rules...

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (2, Emphasis mine)

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is a rule. It has been cited many times, but I can cite it again since you clearly missed it the first hundred times.

If the same power is a stat increase or decrease then they absolutely are cumulative as per page 2 multiple modifiers.

Actual RAW, not any poor assumptions...

That's odd, my BRB has no such rule in it. Could you cite the page and paragraph?

Although I do see on page 68, under Resolve Psychic Powers, where is does say, "Unless otherwise stated, the benefits or penalties from from different psychic powers are cumulative." Page 2, however, lacks any examples showing two of the same modifier being applied. We are shown how to apply different modifiers, such as a +1 and a x2, but not two x2's or three +1's. Can you cite any examples of multiples of the same modifier being applied?

SJ

Of course I can back up this statement "If the same power is a stat increase or decrease then they absolutely are cumulative as per page 2 multiple modifiers." with a quote.

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (2)

A Psychic power that adds, say +1, to Strength is a rule that modifies a characteristic, if there are two of the same rule that modifies a characteristic, Page 2 tells us to apply any additions. so +1 and +1 = +2.

Unless you are saying that a rule that gives +1 to strength is not allowed to be present twice on a single unit, but there really is no rules backing for that stance.

P.S. why bring up "Unless otherwise stated, the benefits or penalties from from different psychic powers are cumulative." This has literally nothing to do with two of the same Psychic power...

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so are blessings 'wargear' or 'special rules'?

No, but they are rules...

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (2, Emphasis mine)

P.S. why bring up "Unless otherwise stated, the benefits or penalties from from different psychic powers are cumulative." This has literally nothing to do with two of the same Psychic power...

First, if it's not a 'wargear' nor 'special rule' than it's not a modifier

Second, as you state it's the same power, and as you also state it's a combination of rules.

than, as we have the one rule 'blessing' and no other rules, we do not have a combination of rules, we just have one rule that you are incorrectly applying twice.

ergo contextually and RAW the same blessing does not stack.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so are blessings 'wargear' or 'special rules'?

No, but they are rules...

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." (2, Emphasis mine)

P.S. why bring up "Unless otherwise stated, the benefits or penalties from from different psychic powers are cumulative." This has literally nothing to do with two of the same Psychic power...

First, if it's not a 'wargear' nor 'special rule' than it's not a modifier

Second, as you state it's the same power, and as you also state it's a combination of rules.

than, as we have the one rule 'blessing' and no other rules, we do not have a combination of rules, we just have one rule that you are incorrectly applying twice.

ergo contextually and RAW the same blessing does not stack.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing it. Can you please inform me of where on page 2 under "Multiple Modifiers" it says special rules? My copy of the rulebook says "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic..." I don't see "Special rule anywhere in there".

No. This conversation JUST ended, and we're not restarting it now.