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Of all the armies which should be able to take demonology, it's demons. However, I could see GW being pants on head stupid and saying demons can't take demonology, but GK and SM can take it.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Anyone else notice that you no longer have to snapshot if you fire an ordinance weapon? So defilers and Leman russ' just got better! Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way the new rules have it stated.


On a side note, how many of you actually think that there will be a FAQ to prevent that ridiculous daemon factory list from operating the way it currently is? Frontline gaming had a 7th batrep, and in one turn the daemons added 500 more points of daemons with these powers. Turn one they had 35 warp points without counting the extra d6 points.

But it looks like anyone and everyone can kick out deamons except for Grey Knights. I admit I just picked up the rules and did a quick scan of the cards. What's to prevent another army from summoning their own deamons in return?

Relapse wrote:
But it looks like anyone and everyone can kick out deamons except for Grey Knights. I admit I just picked up the rules and did a quick scan of the cards. What's to prevent another army from summoning their own deamons in return?

Ah, the fluff-friendly answer.

You guys should keep one thing in mind: Daemon Factory was built on the first day of release. Someone came up with a recursive looping army that eventually adds an extra 2,000 to 4,000 points to the game on the first day of release. That's the tight, well-written, thoroughly-playtested rule set in action.

Daemon Factory's only the beginning.

Relapse wrote:
But it looks like anyone and everyone can kick out deamons except for Grey Knights. I admit I just picked up the rules and did a quick scan of the cards. What's to prevent another army from summoning their own deamons in return?

Perils mainly since they happen more often for non-daemons. Daemons also have Brotherhood of Sorcerers in the form of Pink Horrors so they can ignore the perils they do take. Daemons can also generate a ton of warp charges.

If you know a faction that can field tons warp charge generators that are cheap and disposable like Pink Horrors, then they can summon Daemons just as effectively.

BladeSwinga wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
No idea what those are or who has them lol

A hellstrike missile is a single shot ordinance krak missile with 72" range found in pairs on valkyries. They're really bad.

The Hellstrike Missile being unchanged in the IG codex is what made me think that maybe GW would update the Ordnance rules to not be stupid... I guess I was expecting too much of GW to think they could actually figure that one out.

Another question here, as I work out the rules is how can deamons be using summoning spells since what disciplines they can use are laid out in the codex?
For example, horrors are only listed as being able to use divination and change.

Relapse wrote:
Another question here, as I work out the rules is how can deamons be using summoning spells since what disciplines they can use are laid out in the codex?
For example, horrors are only listed as being able to use divination and change.

Horrors only get change, no div. You must be thinking of the rest of Tzeentch psykers like heralds, loc, etc.

Kyutaru wrote:

Relapse wrote:
But it looks like anyone and everyone can kick out deamons except for Grey Knights. I admit I just picked up the rules and did a quick scan of the cards. What's to prevent another army from summoning their own deamons in return?

Perils mainly since they happen more often for non-daemons. Daemons also have Brotherhood of Sorcerers in the form of Pink Horrors so they can ignore the perils they do take. Daemons can also generate a ton of warp charges.

If you know a faction that can field tons warp charge generators that are cheap and disposable like Pink Horrors, then they can summon Daemons just as effectively.

Eldar with Grey Knights allies. Farseer+Warlocks+2 Wave serpents, then a bunch of min-sized grey knight squads in Rhinos.

 A GumyBear wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Another question here, as I work out the rules is how can deamons be using summoning spells since what disciplines they can use are laid out in the codex?
For example, horrors are only listed as being able to use divination and change.

Horrors only get change, no div. You must be thinking of the rest of Tzeentch psykers like heralds, loc, etc.

Just looked again and you're right. The question remains, however, who in a deamon army gets to use malefic powers? At first glance through, it doesn't seem like that many can get it.

Relapse wrote:
Just looked again and you're right. The question remains, however, who in a deamon army gets to use malefic powers? At first glance through, it doesn't seem like that many can get it.

There's a rule in the Rulebook that states all non-Tyranid psykers may generate powers from Daemonology. This rule is the only way that ANYONE gets access to malefic powers because every psyker in the game can only generate their powers from a specific list of disciplines. You either go with the idea that every psyker "adds" Daemonology to his discipline list or you have to settle for the idea that Daemonology is currently banned for all factions. Most people prefer the first option given how the rulebook even states that Daemons have Malefic access.

Kyutaru wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Just looked again and you're right. The question remains, however, who in a deamon army gets to use malefic powers? At first glance through, it doesn't seem like that many can get it.

There's a rule in the Rulebook that states all non-Tyranid psykers may generate powers from Daemonology. This rule is the only way that ANYONE gets access to malefic powers because every psyker in the game can only generate their powers from a specific list of disciplines. You either go with the idea that every psyker "adds" Daemonology to his discipline list or you have to settle for the idea that Daemonology is currently banned for all factions. Most people prefer the first option given how the rulebook even states that Daemons have Malefic access.

Where in the book is that? I'm still thumbing through the thing, learning my way around it. Holy crap, I just saw where summoned units are considered to be scoring and if they are deamons, they can get upgrades for free.
Ah, I found it.

 Thud wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I'm sorry but anyone suggesting daemon factory lists aren't an issue must be playing some other game.

Don't worry, it's the same kind of people who said four Riptides weren't a big deal when the Farsight Enclaves came out because without proper support they're not efficient. Then NOVA rolled around and O'vesa star became a household brand.

When someone properly breaks this Daemon business, they'll be calling it "cheesy OP WAAC BS" instead of gimmicky overrated silliness.

Just give it time.

I'd just like to point out the fact o'vesa star is a whole other level then just 4 riptides.
Having 1 buffmander on 2 riptides was the thing that took it for a spin into crazytown. well, the final spin.

Wouldn't a table with a lot of terrain or fast horde armies put the hurt on all the deamon summoning? I say this as someone with a fairly large deamon army still working his way through the rules after getting them a couple hours ago.
I have a friend named Rich who does a lot of Blue Table battle reports with his Orks, and I could envision him pretty much taking a deamon army off the table in about three turns if the deamon player were planning on summoning to win the game against him.
Then again, he faced an Eldar army with three Wraith Knights and beat the last Knight down by turn 4, I think it was.

Boniface wrote:
I watched a batrep of Tau vs Demons at 1850pts. The Tau player killed 2,200 pts of Demons and still lost. That's how bad it is.

This sums it up, the Tau player killed more models than the agreed limit of the game and still lost.
Ludicrous

 Vector Strike wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I watched a batrep of Tau vs Demons at 1850pts. The Tau player killed 2,200 pts of Demons and still lost. That's how bad it is.

This sums it up, the Tau player killed more models than the agreed limit of the game and still lost.
Ludicrous

That could happen with Tyranids as well. Psykers need to spend a lot of dice to reliably cast the power (at least 6), manage Perils (only on 6 to Daemons, but still possible to happen), be denied if enemy has dice to, DS stuff and manage to land the newcomers.
Tervigons just need to roll 3d6 and put more termagants in the game. They are much more prolly to 'lock' and stop getting more, but can be made Troops (super-scoring) and survive much more than lowly Heralds and Horrors.

The main problem with Malefic is the WC 1 Herald summon power. It should have been WC 3 as well, or at least 2.

Maybe adding a maximum number of WCs usable by an army per turn (d6+20ish) - so people wouldn't spam psykers to get summons. Summoned units shouldn't be able to roll on summoning powers as well...

Think about your army at the moment.
Can it take out 3 units of horrors going to ground in ruins, per turn?

Horrors w/ Cursed Earth ignore 58% of attacks, just using their invulnerable. For 3 units this is roughly 162 bolter shots. (And it doesn't really change that much if you are firing bolters vs autocannons or baleflamers or anything else... T3 4++ save). If you can't put out that number of shots, then the demon army is going to get bigger next turn. If you leave even one model alive from any of those 3 units, the daemons won.

Summoning horrors function at full effectiveness with 1 horror left gone to ground, out of line of sight. In fact, that is almost more desirable for the Daemon player as it forces split fire, and provides some easy choices for possession.

One of the real strengths of the summoning army is the ability to tailor you list on the fly. About to be charged by a ravening horde? Well you can bring in some Daemonettes (for 20 I5 Rending attacks). Or some Bloodletters (for 10 WS5 Ap3 attacks). Plaguebearers for some poison, or horrors for more dice.
By not being forced to choose between particular specialists until they are needed, the Daemon force can be very powerful indeed.

Then you add Be'lakor's invisibility and suddenly you can only fire snap shots at them and hit in melee on a 6. Snap Shots only means you cannot fire templates or blasts at any invisible unit.

Try beating Daemons with no templates or blasts by snap shotting. I think only Imperial Guard would even have enough dice to roll for that.

I don't think that you will have enough dice left for overpowering summoning if you are casting buffs as well...

And even if a demon factory is as broken as assumed it doesn't really matter to me. There have been already several builds in 6th against which I knew right from the start that I won't see turn 4.
I'm pretty sure it can be possible to stop demons with an aggressive list.

Are there any restrictions about casting when locked in CC?

Ragnar69 wrote:
I don't think that you will have enough dice left for overpowering summoning if you are casting buffs as well.

There are lists generating 38+ warp charges per turn. You only need about 4-5 dice for invisibility, or only 2-3 if you have psychic rerolls.

But what can those builds do except to summon? The enemy will have hardly any casualties in the first 2 or even three turns.

While I see that it could potentially be broken, I refuse to claim it as fact as long I haven't been steamrolled at least thrice in a row

Ragnar69 wrote:
But what can those builds do except to summon? The enemy will have hardly any casualties in the first 2 or even three turns.

While I see that it could potentially be broken, I refuse to claim it as fact as long I haven't been steamrolled at least thrice in a row

Objectives. Summoned creatures count as having Objective Secured which means you can flood the board and take all the objectives with an incontestable swarm of minions. The only way to take back the objective would be to kill all the daemons on it, which a summon army prevents by making that impossible. So while you waste your time trying to take a single objective the entire game, any other objectives are taken automatically by the daemons. Or if there's only one objective, you engage in a fruitless battle of killing a never ending tide of monsters until the Daemon player starts summoning Bloodthirsters and Lords of Change to demolish the remnants of your army.

I encourage you to test it out. You can play a solo game against yourself using any other army as proxy and just roll dice to see how powerful the summons can become.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Honestly I think people are massively overreacting to the Daemon Factory list...

That batrep as mentioned elsewhere was a joke, as the Marine army was pretty much set-up to fail horribly.
Try that BS against a real army like IG/AM, Eldar, Dark Eldar or Tau who can just obliterate daemonic units wholesale with their shooting, or Orks, 'Nids, Beast-rush DE and such who can swamp them in combat... Or how about GK's bringing in some fancy Interceptors to turn 1 shunt & cast mass Warp Quake everywhere near the summoners?!

Besides, if a Daemon list is spending ALL of it's Warp Charges to mass summon, it's doing pretty much 0 damage on turn 1, and only minimal damage on turn 2, because it has nothing left to cast it's shooting/augment powers.
Meanwhile there's a whole enemy army that gets a free pass to blow chunks out of it.

Play some actual games. Summoning isn't balls out broken or auto-win unless you go out of your way to make it/allow it to be.

Trasvi wrote:


One of the real strengths of the summoning army is the ability to tailor you list on the fly. About to be charged by a ravening horde? Well you can bring in some Daemonettes (for 20 I5 Rending attacks). Or some Bloodletters (for 10 WS5 Ap3 attacks). Plaguebearers for some poison, or horrors for more dice.
By not being forced to choose between particular specialists until they are needed, the Daemon force can be very powerful indeed.

and GW has accomplished it's goal of selling all it's inventory of plastic daemon kits.

100% agreed, played against a deamon factory eldar army (15 farseers and eldrad) and killed 120 deamons over the course of the game.

Kyutaru wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
But what can those builds do except to summon? The enemy will have hardly any casualties in the first 2 or even three turns.

While I see that it could potentially be broken, I refuse to claim it as fact as long I haven't been steamrolled at least thrice in a row

Objectives. Summoned creatures count as having Objective Secured which means you can flood the board and take all the objectives with an incontestable swarm of minions. The only way to take back the objective would be to kill all the daemons on it, which a summon army prevents by making that impossible. So while you waste your time trying to take a single objective the entire game, any other objectives are taken automatically by the daemons. Or if there's only one objective, you engage in a fruitless battle of killing a never ending tide of monsters until the Daemon player starts summoning Bloodthirsters and Lords of Change to demolish the remnants of your army.

I encourage you to test it out. You can play a solo game against yourself using any other army as proxy and just roll dice to see how powerful the summons can become.

That's why I wrote "agressive lists". When Drop Pods rain on the objectives turn 1, the demons are in a very bad position.

PS: as long as we don't have FAQs, my Rune Priests would really love to meet a demon factory

I see your spam of heralds/psykers to summon more daemons and counter it with GK techmarines with OSR's. If you have anything left after the first turn i will be very surprised.

 Formosa wrote:
100% agreed, played against a deamon factory eldar army (15 farseers and eldrad) and killed 120 deamons over the course of the game.

How much points was this?

Kyutaru wrote:
Then add Be'lakor to your army... now you have Teenage Mutant Ninja Daemons.

Despite that Tau player killing off 2200 pts of Daemons in an 1850 pt game, I'm betting the Daemon player still had 2500 pts of them left.

The Demon player still had over 1500pts of Demons left at the end of the game.

I believe the phrase is 'nuff said'

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
100% agreed, played against a deamon factory eldar army (15 farseers and eldrad) and killed 120 deamons over the course of the game.

How much points was this?

Sounds like a lot. 15 farseers and Eldrad alone is closing in on 1750.

What would a Daemon Factory Mirrormatch look like?