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I thought Canadians were nicer.

We are.

But that's not the issue. I can be perfectly nice and have a reasonable discussion about the C'tan before a game. Sometimes I may not want to play against it; other times I may be so inclined. Those times I don't, however, I'd rather not get labelled as a variety of negative terms the internet loves.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It has nothing to do with entitlement. It all about what kind of gamer you are. I'm not going to get butthurt because my friend wants to use a C'Tan or 6 riptides, or any other nonsense you fear.

Its not about being butthurt either. Its nothing to do with fear either.

It has everything to do with enjoyment. Some people only have a limited time to play 40k, and they may not wish to play against something that was (during 6th) a very powerful unit. Same goes for 6 Riptides.

All of that can be done politely, and with a level head. You're never obligated to play a game with someone.

That is very true. I never meant to imply it was a requirement, but I know what its like to have your codex taken away from you. Back in 3rd the store I played at decided the Blood Angel codex was too broken to use and decided to gimp it or ban it, despite them repeatedly saying I wasn't the problem player. Being the only regular BA player there I was the one that suffered for it. So I'm sympathetic to others in that situation.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:


And a real friends would try and help you use the models you love.

Only true friends play against 6 riptides, because entitlement us rule #1.

Friendship is magical like that.

Last time I fought against a Tau player I knew had a Riptide I stocked my list with practically all the AP2 shooting I had in my inventory figuring that I'd give him a chance to have an advantage by NOT bringing it (sort of like positive reinforcement ). He did bring it though, which resulted in a very odd game (our dice rolled funny too, which made it even stranger) where almost nothing died until the second player turn of the third turn, at which point the Riptide and the Longstrikehead sitting next to him tied for first blood.

First time I actually managed to kill one...

The ironic thing is that right before that I had a game with a guy (plays IG+IK) who basically asked me to let him try and beat my Tessaract Vault in a 1,500pt game. He brought so many Lascannons he almost managed it on turn 1 (took 6 HP off of it despite my Destructek popping a Solar Flare that put 3 of them out of 36" range and gave it shrouded against the rest) and did kill it on turn two (at least it managed to take out 7 guardsmen, 2 lascannon teams, 2 lascannon Sentinels and shaved off 2 HP off the IK before going down... ). Managed to edge out a win there at the end thanks to a fair bit of luck with my cover saves and managing to get my Gauss Immortals inside his ADL, but it was a close thing- only things I had left standing at that point were my remaining troops, an Annihilation Barge with no guns and a Night Scythe with nothing to shoot at.

Had he replaced one of the Lascannons with a quad gun he probably would've won rather decisively.

I can understand why some people don't want to play certain things. Unless you let them know in advance to prepare for something like that it can really put a damper on the game.

Point in case, I built a really silly Tyranid list to play against a younger gamer at our club so that he could have a good time. It was with the old dex and had OOE and tons of hormagaunts and warriors. It was a pure assault based army that he could shoot up a good deal before I even got to him then he could have his CC units fight to the death against what was left of the hoard. It was a substandard list in every way.

Well he didn't show up and so my dad offered to play a game...he was playing a strictly gun line IG army with a ton of LRBTs. I told him I didn't really want to play against that many S8 pie plates when I was running about three squads of five warriors that were just going to be erased first turn. I explained that to him, he mocked me about being a whinner like so many players here are doing about your friends, so I played him. Surprise surprise, he wiped me completely off the table by turn two except for OOE who proceeded to walk triumphantly across the table, taking an insane amount of fire before charging a LRBT, blowing it up, and dieing in the explosion on my turn three. It was glorious but a boring game for both of us.

Moral of my story is, talk to your friends before hand so they have a chance to build their list to cope with it and if they still aren't willing...well...they are poor sports, find someone who is.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
and this all serves as powerful personal focus for my mounting frustration with GW's incompetent rules writing and blatant short sighted money grabbing.

This has nothing to do with GW and everything to do with having whiney douchebags as 'friends.'

Ehhhh...I think that's a bit of a strong assessment about the character of the friends given the limited knowledge about them.

Regardless, GW is to blame to some extent, and I'd argue is the source of the issue, and these group issues are a symptom. I don't know of any other games that result in that sort of ostracization.

Yeah, of course, let make GW the scapegoat for all the problems...
Sometimes preople are a and like to complain about everything, you cant make happy everyone and you dont have to, you cant blame GW about the douchebagness of the pleople, people are people, they whine even playing snakes and ladder.

One week to go and hope is fading away... tell me dear reader, will Galorian's favorite model ever soar free of its cage?

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I can understand why some people don't want to play certain things. Unless you let them know in advance to prepare for something like that it can really put a damper on the game.

Point in case, I built a really silly Tyranid list to play against a younger gamer at our club so that he could have a good time. It was with the old dex and had OOE and tons of hormagaunts and warriors. It was a pure assault based army that he could shoot up a good deal before I even got to him then he could have his CC units fight to the death against what was left of the hoard. It was a substandard list in every way.

Well he didn't show up and so my dad offered to play a game...he was playing a strictly gun line IG army with a ton of LRBTs. I told him I didn't really want to play against that many S8 pie plates when I was running about three squads of five warriors that were just going to be erased first turn. I explained that to him, he mocked me about being a whinner like so many players here are doing about your friends, so I played him. Surprise surprise, he wiped me completely off the table by turn two except for OOE who proceeded to walk triumphantly across the table, taking an insane amount of fire before charging a LRBT, blowing it up, and dieing in the explosion on my turn three. It was glorious but a boring game for both of us.

Moral of my story is, talk to your friends before hand so they have a chance to build their list to cope with it and if they still aren't willing...well...they are poor sports, find someone who is.

Good sportmanship before all, thats the word here, you should always have a pregame talk about whats gonna be on the table, make some adjusment to the list or no and then play and have fun, at least that the objetive that gives more victory points at the last

I haven't gotten to play against Tau in 6th at all. Both players decided not to buy the last codex. But I do know what its like to run away in terror from Angron. Damn he is a beast, slaughtered the Sanguinor and his Vanguards with ease. He had a 2' empty space around him. But that is what I get for shooting Kharn in the face too many times, The World Eaters upgraded. lol

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I haven't gotten to play against Tau in 6th at all. Both players decided not to buy the last codex. But I do know what its like to run away in terror from Angron. Damn he is a beast, slaughtered the Sanguinor and his Vanguards with ease. He had a 2' empty space around him. But that is what I get for shooting Kharn in the face too many times, The World Eaters upgraded. lol

I'd hope a model that costs a major fraction of the points you can spend in all but the largest of games can kill some subpar CC units.

 anyeri wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
and this all serves as powerful personal focus for my mounting frustration with GW's incompetent rules writing and blatant short sighted money grabbing.

This has nothing to do with GW and everything to do with having whiney douchebags as 'friends.'

Ehhhh...I think that's a bit of a strong assessment about the character of the friends given the limited knowledge about them.

Regardless, GW is to blame to some extent, and I'd argue is the source of the issue, and these group issues are a symptom. I don't know of any other games that result in that sort of ostracization.

Yeah, of course, let make GW the scapegoat for all the problems...
Sometimes preople are a and like to complain about everything, you cant make happy everyone and you dont have to, you cant blame GW about the douchebagness of the pleople, people are people, they whine even playing snakes and ladder.

Yes people are the main problem, but GW enables their behavior to a large degree. So no they don't get a pass in this.

May I ask something?

Why is it your 'favorite' model?

Sometimes it seems you like the model by itself, but you refuse to use it as a C´tan, nerf it a little down or even take some sub-optimal powers. Sure if you wanted to use it you would be OK with toning it down a bit? As much as GW´s rules are pretty bad, you have many tools at your disposal to field that model... at least in a causal, 'friendly' environment.

As others, I am surprised by how 'unfriendly' your meta sounds.

 Kain wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I haven't gotten to play against Tau in 6th at all. Both players decided not to buy the last codex. But I do know what its like to run away in terror from Angron. Damn he is a beast, slaughtered the Sanguinor and his Vanguards with ease. He had a 2' empty space around him. But that is what I get for shooting Kharn in the face too many times, The World Eaters upgraded. lol

I'd hope a model that costs a major fraction of the points you can spend in all but the largest of games can kill some subpar CC units.

Very true, but my point is I played. Against Angron I won't have much of a chance with my BA, but my friend loves the model so I played. Its the give and take that makes a good group to play with.

 da001 wrote:
May I ask something?

Why is it your 'favorite' model?

Sometimes it seems you like the model by itself, but you refuse to use it as a C´tan, nerf it a little down or even take some sub-optimal powers. Sure if you wanted to use it you would be OK with toning it down a bit? As much as GW´s rules are pretty bad, you have many tools at your disposal to field that model... at least in a causal, 'friendly' environment.

As others, I am surprised by how 'unfriendly' your meta sounds.

Looks are a big part of it, but they don't actually make it fun to play on their own. The C'tan Shard is an beautiful model itself (which I have), but is plain boring on the board not to mention basically being a liability.

As for homebrewing it- that's nice in theory, but how am I supposed to make this work when the vast majority of my games are basically pseudo-pick up games in the FLGS set up over FB a day or two in advance?

Houseruling bad rules is almost trivial compared to homebrewing changes to unbalanced models-

Limitless FOCs is broken? Easy peasy- limit it to 1 main + 1 secondary. Don't like mysterious terrain/objectives? Don't play'em. Daemon Clown Car is broken as feth? I've come across a slew of suggestions that could tame it without nerfing Daemons to oblivion, just pick the one people agree with more and move on. Of course this is easier to implement in theory than it is with actual people you run into in a FLGS.

Trying to fix a model that's unbalanced without any "broken" rules that could be houseruled into a saner interpretation however is a whole different can of worms. Do I just try to change the point costs? By how much? Playtest it to see what works? When, exactly? I consider myself lucky if I manage a game or two a month, should I dedicate the next couple of year's worth of games to testing out different point values?

If only there were people who's job it was to do just that... Oh, wait...

The fact is... they are never going to do it. Perhaps in the distant future someone in GW will fix this specific unit, but you can´t count on it, and the same person will probably break other things. There are many units, even entire armies, that stay broken edition after edition.

I think it is easier for players to accept a house-rule if it openly benefits them. Instead of tweaking the points, which takes a lot of time, try to tone down some abilites or weapons. Get a list of viable changes and ask some reasonable player (there must be some) what specific changes he will find fair. Aim low, try to get a couple of games and be ready to lose some games before a proper balance is found. You shouldn´t be winning these games and you totally shouldn´t be tabling opponents. With luck, the rest of the players could start to feel curiosity. The model looks really cool, and if they see it can be defeated they will probably give it a try.

Also, just out of curiosity, is there someone in your group into trying some wild stuff? Home-made, wildy modelled count-as, some cool campaign or mission,... I don´t know, perhaps someone misses the way unit X worked in 5th or 4th, and is trying to find someone to give it a try. Make clear you are open to new stuff and I will like to think people will be open to yours.

 da001 wrote:
The fact is... they are never going to do it. Perhaps in the distant future someone in GW will fix this specific unit, but you can´t count on it, and the same person will probably break other things. There are many units, even entire armies, that stay broken edition after edition.

I think it is easier for players to accept a house-rule if it openly benefits them. Instead of tweaking the points, which takes a lot of time, try to tone down some abilites or weapons. Get a list of viable changes and ask some reasonable player (there must be some) what specific changes he will find fair. Aim low, try to get a couple of games and be ready to lose some games before a proper balance is found. You shouldn´t be winning these games and you totally shouldn´t be tabling opponents. With luck, the rest of the players could start to feel curiosity. The model looks really cool, and if they see it can be defeated they will probably give it a try.

Also, just out of curiosity, is there someone in your group into trying some wild stuff? Home-made, wildy modelled count-as, some cool campaign or mission,... I don´t know, perhaps someone misses the way unit X worked in 5th or 4th, and is trying to find someone to give it a try. Make clear you are open to new stuff and I will like to think people will be open to yours.

The Apocalypse event has players put their armies into the game in 1,000pt "blocks" (that way they can dynamically balance out the two sides points-wise without knowing the exact attendance ahead of time- a player who comes with 4000 points divides them into 1000pt segments and may put as many of them in as the other side can match) I've been thinking of taking just the C'tan as such a block and taking the ~200pts left over as a "balance tax".

Hopefully taking that hit and foreswearing the use of any power with the letter D in it will get people to loosen up about it.

Hell, all I had in mind in the first place was to have him drop a turn or two of shooting and then charge in to do cause some CQC mayhem, hopefully managing to find his way to an Imperial Knight as I've been practically salivating at the idea of having it duke it out with one in melee...

C'mon, you can't tell me the idea of having this godling trading punches with a giant chansword wielding mechaknight doesn't make your inner 8 year old scream in glee!

You have my sympathy. If it is of any consolation, that is a beautiful paintjob and very nicely photographed, too.

 knas ser wrote:
that is a beautiful paintjob and very nicely photographed, too.

+1

Play it as is in the upcoming apocalypse game how you want to play it. Frankly, until they actually face it they are going to keep the mistaken belief that it's to powerful when in actuality it will likely die on turn one of an apocalypse game. Seriously, they have it built up as some kinda of boogie monster in their head. Play it at apoc, watch it get killed quickly and the fear will go away. It's not that they can't deal with it, they are just to god damn lazy to try to and are bullying you into not using a cool model you own. Feth em, play it every so often and have some fun.

Ahh, man, I wish you were kicking around where I am!
I'd jump on the opportunity to fight something crazy strong like that!
Sounds awesome fun to me!
Sorry you're stuck playing with some seriously whiny dudes.
It's like those blokes that are so worried about playing against TFG that they become TFG!

Orktavius wrote:
Play it as is in the upcoming apocalypse game how you want to play it. Frankly, until they actually face it they are going to keep the mistaken belief that it's to powerful when in actuality it will likely die on turn one of an apocalypse game. Seriously, they have it built up as some kinda of boogie monster in their head. Play it at apoc, watch it get killed quickly and the fear will go away. It's not that they can't deal with it, they are just to god damn lazy to try to and are bullying you into not using a cool model you own. Feth em, play it every so often and have some fun.

"Hey man, that C'Tan is just too OP for this game. Okay, I'm done deploying my three warhounds. They're all armed the same with 2 turbolasers."

Take 2.

UPDATE:

In the end all save one of the guys who were opposed to my bringing my C'tan to the game didn't even show up. Attendance was unexpectedly light in general and the game ended up being 5,000 points of my Necrons (including both the C'tan and the Vault as two separate models, neither of which took any power with strength D) against three players- the aforementioned naysayer with 1,000 points of IG (unbound list made up of two executioners, one vanquisher, two basilisks, a ML1 psiker and an engineseer), a kid with 1,000pts of Necrons (Monolith, Doomsday Cannon, Overlord, Destructek and a bunch of footsloggers) and one of the store owners who put in his trio of Imperial Knights, a ML2 Psiker in power armor along with some ablative wounds hiding inside an ADL with an Icarus, a decked out Baneblade and a lascannon+Missile Launcher Venerable Dreadnaught.

Wait a minute... I think I'm forgetting something...

Oh, right... he also brought a Warhound Titan with plasma and Turbolasers...

So people were telling me how my Transcended C'tan was OP and I shouldn't play it, yet in the actual game I ended up facing a Warhound Titan and an Invisible Baneblade (that's right- the Psiker rolled Invisibility for his first power, and the player used it to make the Blood Ravens' worst nightmare a reality on the battlefield ).

Fortunately they rolled rather abysmally whenever it came time to test for armor penetration and most of their army ended up being tied up in a futile attempt to slay my Warlord atop his silvery pimp ride (seriously, that thing is so durable it's downright absurd and they really shouldn't have kept shooting at it when it wasn't really doing anything of note- all he did over the entire course of the game was shave 2 HP off the Baneblade and eat a ridiculous amount of weapons fire) and the game ended after turn 3, by which time I've all but wiped out the Necrons, blew up 2 out of the three IKs, slaughtered both Psikers, popped a Leman Russ, shaved 5 HP off the Warhound and 6 off of the Baneblade, achieved Slay the Warlord against all three opponents and scored 8 victory cards to my opponent's 4, all in exchange for my Sentry Pylon, 2 Deathmarks, a Despairtek, 2 Immortals, a wound off of my C'tan (first shot of the game no less), 3 HP off of the Vault and a tease from my Silver Surfer Warlord who passed his reanimation test. My Destroyer Lord, his Wraiths and my second Doomscythe didn't even get to enter the game.

My winning list attached.

 Galorian wrote:
the Blood Ravens' worst nightmare a reality on the battlefield

ಠ_ಠ

Sounds like a fun game! You won decisively I take it? Did you feel your "OP" units punched above their points?

Well with the perpetual daemon machine, you can just always point out that you could always start a Daemon Warpcharge factory army if they're so offended by your "op" Necrons.

Yonan wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
the Blood Ravens' worst nightmare a reality on the battlefield

ಠ_ಠ

Sounds like a fun game! You won decisively I take it? Did you feel your "OP" units punched above their points?

I did win very decisively, but it certainly didn't feel like my superheaviers were all that decisive- The C'tan's antimatter meteor (150pt power, Apocalyptic Megablast) failed to inflict so much as a single wound or HP throughout the entire battle, his seismic shockwave (60pts, makes his stomp attacks large blasts) never even came close to coming into play and his Seismic Assault power (200pts, 6d6 S8 AP3 shots) only managed to take two HP off the Baneblade on the turn it failed to become invisible and kill one Imperial Knight (admittedly their Warlord) when his Ion Shield was turned in another direction (the resulting blast killed the IG's engineseer though, so that's something). Not all that impressive for a 830pt model...

The Vault did somewhat better- its Seismic Assault managed to kill an Imperial Knight and its Sky of Falling Stars brought down the Warhound's Void Shields, took 2 HP off of it in two turns of shooting and hit the Invisible Baneblade's rear for two HP. For 630pts that's a better return for the costs, and being more vulnerable than the C'tan the Vault drew far more fire (though still nowhere near as much as my silver surfing Warlord)

The real heroes of the match were the CCBs (285pts each), one of which tanked the vast majority of the enemy's firepower throughout most of the game and managed to take two HP off of the Invisible Baneblade after assaulting it and the other sweeped open the Dreadnaught before preforming a can opener routine on one of the Executioners, the Doomscythe (175pts), which killed off the enemy's Necron Overlord, 12 Warriors and shaved an HP off the Monolith, my Warriors and Ghost Ark, who between them took out the Monolith's other 3 HP, finished off the remaining 8 Warriors and secured 3 victory cards off of an objective and my Death and Despair squads (215pts each), one of which wiped out the Power armored psyker and his ablative wound buddies and survived getting assaulted by an Imperial Knight while suffering only 1 casualty (the other two got back up) and the other wiped out a full squad of Immortals, a Cryptek and the IG psyker.

Wyzilla wrote:Well with the perpetual daemon machine, you can just always point out that you could always start a Daemon Warpcharge factory army if they're so offended by your "op" Necrons.

Nah... It's far more credible a threat to say I can always buy another 4+ Scythes and a whole bunch of Barges...

They are silly period. The D is nerfed the C'tan is no where near as silly as some of the other apoc stuff like an Eldar Titan.

Especially in Apoc. If you can't take him in apoc they must limit all super heavies?

Well, he is one of the 3 out-of-scale lords of war, along with the warhound and the eldar titan.
though resisting it while a warhound is on the other side is silly

As with all the trio though, just banning one gun brings it back into balance (also applies to riptides actually), in his case WoW.
Without a WoW (especially double WoW), his firepower is reduced to manageable scales. and the only "issue" remaining is that its virtually unkillable by non-D non-grav weaponry. (by being T9, FnP, invul 4 and resisting poison). definatly high-tier, and nasty piece of work. but not different from multi-tides, demon spawn pits or the likes.
Nasty, but beatable.

 Galorian wrote:
UPDATE:

against three players- the aforementioned naysayer with 1,000 points of IG (unbound list made up of two executioners, one vanquisher, two basilisks, a ML1 psiker and an engineseer), a kid with 1,000pts of Necrons (Monolith, Doomsday Cannon, Overlord, Destructek and a bunch of footsloggers) and one of the store owners who put in his trio of Imperial Knights, a ML2 Psiker in power armor along with some ablative wounds hiding inside an ADL with an Icarus, a decked out Baneblade and a lascannon+Missile Launcher Venerable Dreadnaught.

This is why I think Apocalypse is a joke in a nutshell. Boring, a load of gak, nothing like it should be and total fluff rape. Its not even fun to play. Its an abomination.

Its just a game of spam hard hitting specialised, overpowered or irritating units that make no sense along side each other and only work towards the end of blowing your opponent off the board first. Oh, and minimal infantry, because they just exist to get shot at in Apocalypse.

The first time I played an Apoc game, half of my opponent's 5k list was Ork Dreadnoughts where I had fielded the old Deathkneel formation with 40-50 Terminators (most of them Tactical variant- this wasn't so much as to abuse Apoc as it was to field what I had of my 1st Company, and I was aware they were pretty crap) and a fluffy 2nd Company. Using the old garbage 5th ed Codex. Long story short, I killed a bunch of Boys, then his Dreadnoughts rolled over everything else, but equal cost Kans wipe the floor with Terminators. The exception might have been that this game was fluffy relatively but it wasn't fun.

The second time, 2 months ago, I played a nice guy and some self absorbed donkey-cave (reflected in his behaviour, though I won't indulge you there) who brought his Cron Air tournament list with 9 flyers (for feths sake) and immediately made his rather friendly team mate take a 10 combi-melta Sternguard squad in a drop pod upon seeing my army laid roughly out on the table, with a Baneblade.

So yeah, due to forgetting the precise nature of how Drop Pods worked, I lost the Baneblade (in its first game, no less) turn two, and the rest of the game was killing the odd vehicle with my AT units while my DA friend who was also playing fluffy got hit by a pair of Orbital Bombardments and lost 3/4 of his army turn 1 to that and other things. The rest was them mopping up with the 9 Necron flyers, pair of Storm Talons and Storm Raven.

The worst part? It was the same claw for all you can get attitude you find at tournaments. I never plan on playing Apocalypse again.