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 PhillyT wrote:
LOW is just a slot. Unless you are running a Stompa, the slot will be wide open and ready to be filled with Ghaz, opening up another HQ slot.

As far as being stomped by a prim arch, in a green tide formation, he will have a 2++ after the first turn. Combined with 5 S10 AP2 attacks per turn and W4, he will be a pretty tough nut even for most primarchs.

The Green Tide formation lists a standard Warboss. It's a formation, NOT a detachment. You can only take what's listed in it. So you can't take Ghazghkull and have him running around with a 2+ inv. save from turn 2 onward. The formation's rule only works if the Warboss is your Warlord; Ghazghkull's rule only works if he's the Warlord. They don't combine.


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 Unholyllama wrote:
Side question - is the green tide formation in the Ghazghkull supplement the same as that found in the apoc book? Or is it different in that instead of a Warboss, Ghazghkull is leading the 10 units?

It's the same in terms of have a generic Warboss and 10 Boyz forming one massive unit. The rules are a bit different. You get the rule that the Warboss can "Waagh!" every turn after the first if he's the Warlord of your army, and there's a note that in missions where points are scored for destroying units, the Green Tide counts as eleven units when destroyed.

 Gold tooth Jerry wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I'm not sure that I credit them with sufficient forward planning for this, but it could be a back door way of persuading a wider acceptance of LoW units.

My understanding is that Gahzzie isn't hugely changed in terms of game rules, so most people, one would assume, wouldn't have any more problem playing with or against him now than in the last book.

If you're willing to play against one LoW...

Starts blurring the lines, and then hopefully encourages an uptick in all those big shiny kits they're looking to move.

Hmm, so lets see I can take Ghazz and underpowered character thats been nerfed heavily from his last iteration, or i can take a stompa. Hmmm. Which one should I choose...

No, you misunderstand, it's "which one is your opponent less likely to take issue with?"

If they were looking to promote LoW acceptance, moving the community from "no LoW" to "no LoW, except..." is a good first step.

LOW is just a slot. Unless you are running a Stompa, the slot will be wide open and ready to be filled with Ghaz, opening up another HQ slot.

As far as being stomped by a prim arch, in a green tide formation, he will have a 2++ after the first turn. Combined with 5 S10 AP2 attacks per turn and W4, he will be a pretty tough nut even for most primarchs.

 PhillyT wrote:
LOW is just a slot. Unless you are running a Stompa, the slot will be wide open and ready to be filled with Ghaz, opening up another HQ slot.

As far as being stomped by a prim arch, in a green tide formation, he will have a 2++ after the first turn. Combined with 5 S10 AP2 attacks per turn and W4, he will be a pretty tough nut even for most primarchs.

No he won't. He can't be the Warlord in that formation, and he only gets the invuln if he calls the WAAAGH. So no.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
LOW is just a slot. Unless you are running a Stompa, the slot will be wide open and ready to be filled with Ghaz, opening up another HQ slot.

As far as being stomped by a prim arch, in a green tide formation, he will have a 2++ after the first turn. Combined with 5 S10 AP2 attacks per turn and W4, he will be a pretty tough nut even for most primarchs.

No he won't. He can't be the Warlord in that formation, and he only gets the invuln if he calls the WAAAGH. So no.

Thank you for clarifying that. I was trying to figure out how that could be undone.

I thought Gazza was the biggest and baddest Warboss of them all. So big and bad that he earned the respect of other warbosses, becoming their warlord and leading them across the galaxy in the biggest Waaagh! He has had some work done by the mad doc and now has a direct line to Gork and Mork. To top that Waaagh Nazdreg they joined Waaagh Gazza to make the biggest Waaagh even Waaaghier! Once they are done bashing the nids, Gazza will be right back over to Armageddon for another shot.

Come on, who else is going to be a LOW.

 cfoley wrote:
I thought Gazza was the biggest and baddest Warboss of them all. So big and bad that he earned the respect of other warbosses, becoming their warlord and leading them across the galaxy in the biggest Waaagh! He has had some work done by the mad doc and now has a direct line to Gork and Mork. To top that Waaagh Nazdreg they joined Waaagh Gazza to make the biggest Waaagh even Waaaghier! Once they are done bashing the nids, Gazza will be right back over to Armageddon for another shot.

Come on, who else is going to be a LOW.

Will they introduce a Lord of Fail slot for Abbadon do you think?

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I can only hope that Dante get the LOW spot. Better him than Mephiston

It's totally going to be Mephiston.

...and he'll only have BRB powers.

Indeed, seems rather odd.
This is a way to include Ghazzie without spending an HQ slot.

 Toburk wrote:
It's totally going to be Mephiston.
...and he'll only have BRB powers.

My money is on the Sanguinor.

It's weird that Ghazgkull is a LoW.
Especially when he is nerfed ánd the opponent receives additional bonuses because you field a LoW.
Or do those special rules from Escalation no longer count with 7th edition?

There is no mention of those rules in the BRB.

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
LOW is just a slot. Unless you are running a Stompa, the slot will be wide open and ready to be filled with Ghaz, opening up another HQ slot.

As far as being stomped by a prim arch, in a green tide formation, he will have a 2++ after the first turn. Combined with 5 S10 AP2 attacks per turn and W4, he will be a pretty tough nut even for most primarchs.

The Green Tide formation lists a standard Warboss. It's a formation, NOT a detachment. You can only take what's listed in it. So you can't take Ghazghkull and have him running around with a 2+ inv. save from turn 2 onward. The formation's rule only works if the Warboss is your Warlord; Ghazghkull's rule only works if he's the Warlord. They don't combine.

there are other reasons Ghaz can't get the eternal invulnerable save, but as far as the formation, there is nothing saying you can ONLY use the models listed in the formation for your army. Maybe I am getting something out of your comment you aren't intending here, but there isn't anything saying you can't take other things, only that you need at least those listed for the formation to be used.


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Kangodo wrote:

 Toburk wrote:
It's totally going to be Mephiston.
...and he'll only have BRB powers.

My money is on the Sanguinor.

It's weird that Ghazgkull is a LoW.
Especially when he is nerfed ánd the opponent receives additional bonuses because you field a LoW.
Or do those special rules from Escalation no longer count with 7th edition?

The only time you activate the escalation rules/limitations is when you field a unit using the escalation rules. The stomp now no longer activates the Escalation rules since he is in the Ork book and everything you need to play him is in the BRB. If I wanted to drop a bane blade in my IG army though, I would need to use escalation and take with it all the limitations.

That is what I am reading anyway.

 PhillyT wrote:

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
LOW is just a slot. Unless you are running a Stompa, the slot will be wide open and ready to be filled with Ghaz, opening up another HQ slot.

As far as being stomped by a prim arch, in a green tide formation, he will have a 2++ after the first turn. Combined with 5 S10 AP2 attacks per turn and W4, he will be a pretty tough nut even for most primarchs.

The Green Tide formation lists a standard Warboss. It's a formation, NOT a detachment. You can only take what's listed in it. So you can't take Ghazghkull and have him running around with a 2+ inv. save from turn 2 onward. The formation's rule only works if the Warboss is your Warlord; Ghazghkull's rule only works if he's the Warlord. They don't combine.

there are other reasons Ghaz can't get the eternal invulnerable save, but as far as the formation, there is nothing saying you can ONLY use the models listed in the formation for your army. Maybe I am getting something out of your comment you aren't intending here, but there isn't anything saying you can't take other things, only that you need at least those listed for the formation to be used.

What he meant to say that you have to either pick Ghazghkull or the Warboss of the formation as your warlord. If you pick Ghazgkull, he gets the special Waaagh! which makes him get 2++ and allows S&P models in his unit to run. If you choose the warboss, you get endless Waaaghs. You can't choose both. You can't use the bonus of the one you didn't pick. In addition, even though Ghazghkull Thrakka is a beefed-up warboss, he can't be used in a formation which explicitly requires a warboss.

When I heart he was Lord of War that made sense, but I was kind of hoping he was being redesigned with an option as a knight sized avatar of the gods stompa thing rather than just being a mega armor warboss.

I just had an image of a diorama or an artwork of Gazghkull in this fifty foot tall battle armor facing down Yarrick atop the Fortress of Arrogance with dakka exchanges clanging off their respective vehicles and Gazgh roaring with his head exposed because the entire stompa is basically his power armor.

 PhillyT wrote:

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
LOW is just a slot. Unless you are running a Stompa, the slot will be wide open and ready to be filled with Ghaz, opening up another HQ slot.

As far as being stomped by a prim arch, in a green tide formation, he will have a 2++ after the first turn. Combined with 5 S10 AP2 attacks per turn and W4, he will be a pretty tough nut even for most primarchs.

The Green Tide formation lists a standard Warboss. It's a formation, NOT a detachment. You can only take what's listed in it. So you can't take Ghazghkull and have him running around with a 2+ inv. save from turn 2 onward. The formation's rule only works if the Warboss is your Warlord; Ghazghkull's rule only works if he's the Warlord. They don't combine.

there are other reasons Ghaz can't get the eternal invulnerable save, but as far as the formation, there is nothing saying you can ONLY use the models listed in the formation for your army. Maybe I am getting something out of your comment you aren't intending here, but there isn't anything saying you can't take other things, only that you need at least those listed for the formation to be used.

The formation has specific models that you can use as part of the formation, and its rule only works if the Warboss of the formation is your Warlord, similarly Ghaz's rull only works if he's the Warlord. What I'm saying is that you can't replace the Warboss inside the formation itself with Ghaz, therefore he can't use that rule to get his 2+ inv. almost every turn. It's one or the other. And if Ghaz is on the table and not your Warlord, you should feel ashamed to call yourself an Ork.


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 cfoley wrote:
I thought Gazza was the biggest and baddest Warboss of them all. So big and bad that he earned the respect of other warbosses, becoming their warlord and leading them across the galaxy in the biggest Waaagh! He has had some work done by the mad doc and now has a direct line to Gork and Mork. To top that Waaagh Nazdreg they joined Waaagh Gazza to make the biggest Waaagh even Waaaghier! Once they are done bashing the nids, Gazza will be right back over to Armageddon for another shot.

Come on, who else is going to be a LOW.

Well, his rules don't match the fluff, especially now. In the Ork codex, it talks about Gork and Mork speaking directly to him and burning out all his Weirdboyz to do so, then he goes and slaughters another Warlord's personal court to convince that guy to join him, and is personally wrecking his way into making other Warlords join him. He's the literal "Chosen One" of Gork and Mork... and yet a freaking power axe wielding Space Marine can hack him up. You're paying 225 points for a guy with a 2+ armor and 6+ FNP, no inv. (except on one turn when he calls Waagh!), a shoota, a power klaw... and that's pretty much it. He's not really worth the points, even, and he's certainly not worth calling a Lord of War, and the stats don't even remotely match the fluff (I mean, relatively speaking, given how fluff and stats line up in the 40K universe).


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Kangodo wrote:
Especially when he is nerfed ánd the opponent receives additional bonuses because you field a LoW.
Or do those special rules from Escalation no longer count with 7th edition?

Per the FAQ, they only count when playing the specific Escalation missions from that book. And since most people won't bother spending $50 to get that book now when the core rulebook has rules for super-heavies in 40K, you're pretty much never going to see it being played.

well, fluff-wise he should be in the LoW...however fluff-wise hes about the size of a damn Dreadnaught and could easily be tougher than 60 boyz in terms of power and durability.

His current rules do not belong in LoW. He should have MC, Relentless rather than SNP, more attacks, and a stock freakin invul save as a LoW. Even if his price goes up a little to get those, he is NOTHING compared to other LoW picks atm. And not too far behind in cost.
In fact, he was only marginally better than a MANz boss before and his 2++ at any time in the game was the sole reason you took him eventhough it was nearly double the cost. He lost the ability to call that whenever he wants, so now you have to risk it before the assault begins and hope to god you dont fail the charge. Lost an attack (on the charge), lost 5++ stock invul, and for some reason is the same exact price as before. Such a garbage buy now.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Does anyone have any good insight as to why this change was made?

Am I missing something?

I'm being serious, I have looked at every possibility and I can't think of a good reason.

My conclusions.

GW is considering making some HQ changes down the road. Some of the big hitters, Abaddon and Marneus are going to go to the LoW slot.

Battle legiones crusade 30k army's vs a xenon. Except a Primarch would monkey stomp Ghaz

Allow for a legal 3rd HQ Ina single FoC

Negative conclusions:

An easy VP for your opponent. Which is a considerable negative.

Even if they make some of the big hitters LoW it's still hinders your army as there are far more deadlier LoW out there.

I would love to hear from some of the smart Dakka peoples who have a bigger brain than me and see something I'm not seeing.

Thanks

Its to force feed and normalize lords of war and formations into the regular game, most people refused games against them before since they are mostly unfun/pay to win (having to buy additional content to use them more often then not), but now with them firmly rammed into the standard dexes it will be harder to argue against, which will lead to more people leaving, because nothing is worse then losing to un/ poorly painted franken armies that kill your army in less then 45 minutes with zero tactical intelligence required. The DLCs scared people off and GW is going full steam ahead in that approach.

Long story short, it turns $60 dexes into $200 dexes after you get everything (cards, supplements, DLC, WD) before you even buy an army (Not bad for a company that says they "Arent a rules company").

Good news is you can fight against the book gouging easily and legally.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Does anyone have any good insight as to why this change was made?

Am I missing something?

I'm being serious, I have looked at every possibility and I can't think of a good reason.

My conclusions.

GW is considering making some HQ changes down the road. Some of the big hitters, Abaddon and Marneus are going to go to the LoW slot.

Battle legiones crusade 30k army's vs a xenon. Except a Primarch would monkey stomp Ghaz

Allow for a legal 3rd HQ Ina single FoC

Negative conclusions:

An easy VP for your opponent. Which is a considerable negative.

Even if they make some of the big hitters LoW it's still hinders your army as there are far more deadlier LoW out there.

I would love to hear from some of the smart Dakka peoples who have a bigger brain than me and see something I'm not seeing.

Thanks

Its to force feed and normalize lords of war and formations into the regular game, most people refused games against them before since they are mostly unfun/pay to win (having to buy additional content to use them more often then not), but now with them firmly rammed into the standard dexes it will be harder to argue against, which will lead to more people leaving, because nothing is worse then losing to un/ poorly painted franken armies that kill your army in less then 45 minutes with zero tactical intelligence required. The DLCs scared people off and GW is going full steam ahead in that approach.

Long story short, it turns $60 dexes into $200 dexes after you get everything (cards, supplements, DLC, WD) before you even buy an army (Not bad for a company that says they "Arent a rules company").

Good news is you can fight against the book gouging easily and legally.

what a rant mate. SH/LOW are NOT pay to win most are NOT unballanced MOST are perfectly fine. i say MOST because there are some that it can be a bit shifty with, but lets be honest. its only about 3 or 4 that are Broken the rest are totally fine.
alos the complaint about un/poorly painted franken armies, what the hell has that got to do with SHV etc? i can play against ANY army that looks like trash and has ZERO effort applied, its got nothing to do with superheavies just another excuse to stack on there i think.
the "DLC" didnt scare people off... i also think its probably driving sales rather than reducing them. i mean whats the whinge there? oh this guy has a PDF of what that model does thats supplied by GW now i need to quickly read that page, same as ANY other codex entry.... nope bad excuse is bad.unless your someone that has memories EVERY entry for EVERY army (which i dont think there are that many people who have and plenty would still refer to the codex to confirm stuff.. ) so it makes no difference to it does it.
now as to your long story short its nothing short of total rubbish. my CSM codex isnt a 200$ (us presumably) book. i payed for the book. i have 1 suppliment the cards i dont need the WD i dont need the DLC i dont need. its for those that WANT more, you dont NEED it. so stop blowing it out of proportion.your exageration is extreme.
and with the way things are done, i look FORWARD to another expansion of my codex (haha or perhaps a 7th ed one that doesnt suck so bad) because that expansion is a damn sight better than 5-8 years between books. as each can add a little flavour to what i already have.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
well, fluff-wise he should be in the LoW...however fluff-wise hes about the size of a damn Dreadnaught and could easily be tougher than 60 boyz in terms of power and durability.

His current rules do not belong in LoW. He should have MC, Relentless rather than SNP, more attacks, and a stock freakin invul save as a LoW. Even if his price goes up a little to get those, he is NOTHING compared to other LoW picks atm. And not too far behind in cost.
In fact, he was only marginally better than a MANz boss before and his 2++ at any time in the game was the sole reason you took him eventhough it was nearly double the cost. He lost the ability to call that whenever he wants, so now you have to risk it before the assault begins and hope to god you dont fail the charge. Lost an attack (on the charge), lost 5++ stock invul, and for some reason is the same exact price as before. Such a garbage buy now.

From a technical point, really many of the top brass of HQs in the codices should be a LoW. Swarmy, Abaddon, the top guy for Eldar, Ghazzy, arguably the Sanguinor, and (forgetting a few probably) all feel rather LoWish. All you'd need is a rule to automatically have to take them as your warlord and it'd be perfect (with the exception of Sanguinor not being mandatory). But yeah, from a mechanics point its really not a good idea especially if not beefed up (and do you really want ghazzy as your LoW that gives bonus points when the enemy pulls out a particularly strong Lord of War?)

also star in the HH books from FW, the Primarchs also are LOW, (30k not 40k) which is also i would imagine part of the direction its been going