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Blaktoof answer the question or your concession will be accepting.

What rules are you using to take possessed as troops?

Yeah I don't see how you can claim your Detachment as all 3 in order to get the Black legion and Crimson Slaughter stuff that allows you to take those squads as troops.

The point is they are now all the same faction, which equates to being the same codex. The units are all csm in codex/faction but must adhere to the unit entry they are taken from, the detachment rules listed in the supplements are not valid and are replaced by the selection rules in the BRB.


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So what it means is supplement books are now additions to the parent codex rather than replacements for.

Bausk I don't think you've read the Supplements. I'll ask you the same question:

What rule are you using to take a unit of Possessed as troops?

Easy, you have a unit that is in a detachment (cad) of cs (csm faction). In this detachment (cad) we also have a dp of the bl (csm faction) and a squad of cultists from the csm codex (csm faction). We then add a lord from cs (csm faction), a unit of chosen as troops from the bl (csm faction) and another unit of possesed but from the csm codex (csm faction).

We then have a cad made up of a single faction. Note as cs and bl are the csm faction you only need nominate the unit as using the rules from the respective supplement as even by the supplements rules it is a cs or bl detachment/army because they are all the same in the BRBs eyes.

So... please quote the rule in the BL supplement that allows you to take possessed as troops.

Pretend we are in a tournament, and the TO says that possessed are not troops, what rule do you show him to prove that your list is legal?


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 Bausk wrote:
The point is they are now all the same faction, which equates to being the same codex.

While you are at it, can you quote the rule that states being in the same faction "equates" to being in the same codex??

What rule in the CS supplement allows you to take possessed as troops? Or what rule anywhere allows that? Please quote it (if you read it you'll understand as all CS choices are worded the same way).

Bausk,
While Units from the same Faction have permission to be in any one Detachment, with Supplements being from the same Faction, that is not what grant access to the Rules in the Supplement. Thanks to Errata, we know that it is the Detachment as a whole which triggers access to these Rules, because every single Supplement was re-written to state 'An X Detachment...' instead of 'An X Army....' Therefore, without belonging to the correct Detachment, it won't matter if they where they selected from the Crimson Slaughter or Black legion Supplement in this already illegal scenario thanks to the whole 'no more then one Supplement' Rule. The Units in this Detachment will still lack access to any of the Special Rules granted from any Supplement other then the one on the name of the Detachment.

Right now the hole in the Rules is that we do not have a way to choose a whole Detachment from a Supplement, outside of the Waaagh! Ghazghkull Supplement. This is because the main Rulebook doesn't state that the Combined Arms Detachment, or any of the rest, can be selected to fill a 'supplement Detachment role.' The Waaagh! Ghazghkull Supplement, as a comparison, is the only Supplement contain a Rule allowing Detachments from said Supplement to be a Waaagh! Ghazghkull Detachment. In order to get around this Black Hole in the Rules, the generally accepted House Rule is that Rulebook Detachment may be selected to fill the roll of a 'Supplement Detachment' or else the Supplements are completely useless.

I have yet to see anyone be willing to accept that a single Detachment can be a 'Crimson Slaughter / Black Legion / Chaos Space marine Detachment,' to use the illegal scenario as an example, thanks in part to the Rule stating Units can only belong to one Detachment.


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Interesting note:
Just noticed that these Supplements are not on the list of Errata, which means they probably still contain the 'An X Army' wording....
That is even worse, as it would mean even multiple Detachments are bound by the Rules of a single Supplement!

On review - The two Digital copies I just looked at where 'an X detachment...' wording, crisis averted!

 FlingitNow wrote:
So the point still remains what rules are you using to take Possessed as troops?


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Are you refusing to answer that question because you know your made up rules aren't RaW?

Ill field this one actually

The old rules for "Supplements" within the CS book was that you couldn't take CS and the Parent dex of CSM artifacts within a single FOC. Times have now changed, and for the better! Now that supplements are effectivly gone and you are allowed to take any of the released books and rules from the same faction you can effectively mix and match as you please with the only restriction being that you have to abide by the rules stated within the dex for disallowing one books artifacts, on a character from another. Those are the ONLY restrictions now. CAD means any book from the same faction is effectively the SAME FACTION. That can't get any clearer. But to say that you cannot take their troop choices (Possessed) is just silly. If there is a permitting rule within the Crimson Slaughter book that states you can take them as troops, fulfill the minimum requirements to do so, and they are troops. What is the requirement you ask? Well, its

When choosing a Crimson Slaughter detachment, units of Possessed are troops choices instead of elites choices.

but since Detachments don't exist, your thoughts of simply stating "All those rules are moot and you can't take any of them" doesn't apply, otherwise every other transitioning army would be completely unplayable.

Yeah unless you have a CS detachment no possessed as troops. The issue is we are not explicitly told what detachments are CS detachments. So we have two choices throw our hands up in the air and claim the rules don't work. Or take the usual English meaning that we choose any available detachment to be a CS and that unlocks all the rules within and all the restrictions too.


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Yeah unless you have a CS detachment no possessed as troops. The issue is we are not explicitly told what detachments are CS detachments. So we have two choices throw our hands up in the air and claim the rules don't work. Or take the usual English meaning that we choose any available detachment to be a CS and that unlocks all the rules within and all the restrictions too.

Given that CS detachment and BL detachment' not being defined is the root of the problem, that means how to play it depends on defining those terms ourselves. I only really see two option and neither seem very elegant.

You can say a 'CS detachment' can use only CS rules/units/gear, but this essentially makes allied detachment and CAD the same thing. It also seems to make totally useless the very intentional wording of all units in a detachment must be from the same faction.

On the otherhand, you can say a detachment is a CS detachment but also a normal CSM detachment as well since there is nothing to say one detachment cant be both. In which case you use rules/units/gear from both.

I don't really like either of these, the first seems too strict of an interpretation and the latter too loose. Maybe there's a reasonable middle ground but I'm not really seeing it.

JubbJubbz wrote:
Given that CS detachment and BL detachment' not being defined is the root of the problem, that means how to play it depends on defining those terms ourselves. I only really see two option and neither seem very elegant.

You can say a 'CS detachment' can use only CS rules/units/gear, but this essentially makes allied detachment and CAD the same thing. It also seems to make totally useless the very intentional wording of all units in a detachment must be from the same faction.

On the otherhand, you can say a detachment is a CS detachment but also a normal CSM detachment as well since there is nothing to say one detachment cant be both. In which case you use rules/units/gear from both.

I don't really like either of these, the first seems too strict of an interpretation and the latter too loose. Maybe there's a reasonable middle ground but I'm not really seeing it.

You realise both those interpretations of a CS detachment have the same end result (no CSM artefacts all CS rules applying across the detachment). As soon as you decide a CS detachment is a CS detachment it doesn't matter what other type of detachment it is all the CS rules apply due to the wording in the CS supplement.

There is certainly no rules allowing you to have CS rules apply to only part of a detachment. There is no way to field a Black Mace Prince and troops Possessed in the sane detachment.

The allied detachment is effectively redundant in 7th Ed.

Yeah, I don't think there's any way to do it RAW, RAI, and you'd have to HIWPI or RAI it to make it work so you can have a CS and BL detachment.


This brings up a interesting point about Legion of the Damned actually.

blaktoof wrote:

as I stated, you are not taking a detachment of black legion or crimson slaughter because those things firstly don't exist, secdondly and more importantly for this case you are not restricted to taking only black legion units in a black legion detachment, as black legion supplement= chaos faction and CAD states its made up of models of the same faction, not the same book.

are units from black legion faction = chaos or faction = black legion?

This is the question, and all the other arguments on this thread have failed to address it.

Black Legion = Faction Chaos. That's it, that's all of it.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Black Legion = Faction Chaos. That's it, that's all of it.

Chaos Space Marines, not Chaos.

Yes BL=Chaos Space Marine faction. What is your point?

My point is there is no Chaos faction.

His point is there's no difference between Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines as far as a single detachment is concerned.

What are you trying to get at? Have you read the BL or CS rules?