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Yes agreed. It's sort of the same logic I would use for template weapons: there's many models behind this wall, can I place a blast marker so the hole is over a model which I can't see? NO. Okay then neither can a template weapon if all of the models are out of sight of the model caring the template weapon.

I don't think that they thought about the situation we're talking about when they wrote the rules. Yes it just says that you have to place it to cover as many models as possible but if all the models targeted by the template weapon are inside an intact building or bunker or something similar which somehow are visible to a model in the unit outside then I wouldn't say it were possible.

Hmm I'm not sure that I'm concentrated enough here - have we/I strayed too far with these examples? A model shooting must be able to see at least one model from the target unit... That's quite clear, so he wouldn't be able to shoot. Ah yes, the example was if one lone stray model was visible. Well just because one model is visible the template weapon suddenly can shoot through walls? I just can't use the rule like that. But then again, I can't allow an Imperial Knight to stomp a Wraith Knight.

Huh? Again, not the same situation.

If you cannot see any models in the tagret unit, that model may not fire.

Again, your new example is completely different as "an intact building or bunker or something similar" sounds very much like a building with Firepoints. And the rules on how Template weapons deal with Firepoints is very clear too (In the building rules). It does A LOT of damage =P

Of course as you say, if all of the models are out of sight of the model caring the template weapon then you would not be able to use it. But if you can see 1 model (don't forget even a single head, arm, leg would count) then you can place your template on the other 20 models out of sight (if you can within Template rules)

Just to add not only is the template allowed to go over the terrain legally he HAS to if that is what results in the most amount of hits. By not doing so you're basically forcing your opponent to cheat.

Yes if you read the rule as written. But maybe this was such a basic case that they didn't thought it was necessary to state that you can't place a template over models you can't see just like blast markers.

Chaospling wrote:
Yes if you read the rule as written. But maybe this was such a basic case that they didn't thought it was necessary to state that you can't place a template over models you can't see just like blast markers.

You can place blast markers over models you cannot see. You just cannot place the hole so it is somewhere you cannot see. So again you are not applying the actual rules

That.... was what I meant... The hole of the blast marker...

So you agree blast markers can be placed over models you can't see? It also specifies the part that has to be put over a model in LoS. Why do you think Templates work differently?

Lets say you have a model about 6"~7" away in a door way two other members of the unit in base contact but entirely hidden by the walls of the ruin. It is illegal to shoot that guy out in the open because it is impossible to place to template over him without also hitting the two guys next to him who are out of LoS? The problem is when you start creating houserules to make an abstract game feel more real you end up in a snowball creating more and more houserules.

Maybe I'm not clear enough. Yes a blast marker can be placed over models you can't see, but the original point of placement is over a model in line of sight. That's what I apply to template weapons. Only one model is visible? Then place the template over that and MAYBE the template will touch other models in the unit (right now not discussing if some terrain would completely block the template from hitting the blob of models).

Like blast markers the template should touch visible models. A situation where you first can't shoot a blob of models because you don't have a line of sight to a model in the unit which changes if we placed a model in sight but wouldn't be under the template because you place the template over the blob of models is just too goofy to me.

Everything under a blast marker is counted towards how many hits you get and all of these can be wounded. You want to collect a lot of hits from the blob but you agree that they can't be wounded - it's just too far fetched for me.

About FlingitNow's example: No I would allow those to be hit (and wounded) because no solid terrain separates them completely from the template. This would also be the most realistic thing I think - those flames or whatever spreads out violently.

*Edited to comment the example above.

Ah, then youre houseruling, as the template rules absolutely require you to place the template so it covers the most models in the target unit as possible.

Blast markers then have a rule which allows them to wound models out of LOS, templates do not, so they follow the normal rules which mean you can generate X hits, and Y wounds, but if the number of models you can see Z is less than Y, you still only kill Z models.

I dont see whats "goofy" about a wall of burning promethium setting fire to stuff you cannot see. Same as a blast marker can be placed over 10 models, of which you can only see 1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, then youre houseruling, as the template rules absolutely require you to place the template so it covers the most models in the target unit as possible.

Yes kind of, because that's what I believe was intended. I think it's strange that you believe that something can be hit but not wounded.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blast markers then have a rule which allows them to wound models out of LOS, templates do not, so they follow the normal rules which mean you can generate X hits, and Y wounds, but if the number of models you can see Z is less than Y, you still only kill Z models.

I dont see whats "goofy" about a wall of burning promethium setting fire to stuff you cannot see. Same as a blast marker can be placed over 10 models, of which you can only see 1.

The goofy part comes from the template which GW has given us to reflect a more or less realistic flame from the shooter - the flame hits something but can't wound it. We can all see the logic in placing the hole of a blast marker only places which you have an line of sight to but a template can according to you shoot through solid matter when a model in a different area is visible. It's fair enough if you like to play the rules as they are written but I'm quite sure that with all other weapons except Barrage weapons the template must be placed to cover as many visible models as possible. We can keep discussing this, but you won't persuade me that it is intended to cover as many models as possible no matter what.

The same rule being in existence for at least 3 editions isnt persuasive for you?

Fine, play a houserule all you wish, just be ready to understand not everyone you face would play that way.

Oh, and the rule says nothing about exceptions, just you MUSt cover a smany models as posssible. So yes, that is "no matter what" you cover as many as posible. The rule could not be clearer.

It might not be "intended" to cover the maximum number of models, but those are the rules, and if you play someone who says that's how he plays, you will have to remove your models...

House ruling must be accepted by your opponent, and "real world examples" are not really an excuse:

A) Promethium can easily burn through ANY wall / door / barricade

B) if 2 of your models are 0.2 " apart, covered by a blast template, but separated by a Bunker wall, why would they both be killed?
The explosion is only from 1 side?

I haven't had an incident where this situation happened.

Ouch yes, I'm quite prepared for this hehe. Just as I was prepared for Black Templars players refusing to move the full movement through the Righteous Zeal rule until I made GW FAQ the matter

*Edited because of grammar.

I've often had this happen, as I had incinerator Dreadknights. Its quite an easy occurence given the number of torrent flamers out there.

Ah okay, well I've only played with ruins and not intact buildings.