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 ChazSexington wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Because it wasn't a realistic possibility. Sanguinius struck down Amit the Flesh Tearer for even suggesting Horus had betrayed them.

Yet here was Magnus, one of the Emperors closest and most beloved Sons, risking his and his Legions life to warn the Emperor of the betrayal. The Emperor is a psychic beyond measure, closely followed by Magnus, surely in those moments of communion the Emperor could have gleaned the truth.

Amit is only an Astartes and it is above his station to be questioning the loyalty of Horus, Warmaster and Primarch. The Emperor on the other hand, is the Emperor.

True, but I think it's more of a reflection of how difficult it was to believe a Primarch could go rogue rather than an issue of social standing. Also, Magnus DID feth up the Emperor's webway project.

Night Haunter is rogue at this point and due to be censored, but the outbreak of the heresy prevents this. Vulkan already has his doubts about Horus. Primarchs have suspicions of each other for some reason or another.

Magnus is one of the Emperors most beloved Sons, but the Emperor chooses to ignore the contents of the message entirely. He's very quick to act on Magnus. Why not Horus? Perhaps he has something to hide, or a hidden agenda?

And Horus did break the Emperor

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Because it wasn't a realistic possibility. Sanguinius struck down Amit the Flesh Tearer for even suggesting Horus had betrayed them.

Yet here was Magnus, one of the Emperors closest and most beloved Sons, risking his and his Legions life to warn the Emperor of the betrayal. The Emperor is a psychic beyond measure, closely followed by Magnus, surely in those moments of communion the Emperor could have gleaned the truth.

Amit is only an Astartes and it is above his station to be questioning the loyalty of Horus, Warmaster and Primarch. The Emperor on the other hand, is the Emperor.

True, but I think it's more of a reflection of how difficult it was to believe a Primarch could go rogue rather than an issue of social standing. Also, Magnus DID feth up the Emperor's webway project.

Night Haunter is rogue at this point and due to be censored, but the outbreak of the heresy prevents this. Vulkan already has his doubts about Horus. Primarchs have suspicions of each other for some reason or another.

Magnus is one of the Emperors most beloved Sons, but the Emperor chooses to ignore the contents of the message entirely. He's very quick to act on Magnus. Why not Horus? Perhaps he has something to hide, or a hidden agenda?

And Horus did break the Emperor

He doesn't really have a reason to suspect Horus though - and Night Haunter went rogue rather than betray the Emperor, and his attack on Dorn was an accident ;p

Though Sevatar telling Night Haunter his methods sucked at pacifying planets was hilarious in Prince of Crows.

The Legions would most likely split up into mini-factions. By that I mean there would be entire regions owned by each of the legions (eg Ultramar). The Primarchs - as they are warriors - would probably have to go investigate other 'universes' and maybe be retracted back into 'our' universe when the necrons or the next major threat arises. However Primarchs like Lorgar or Magnus would most likely remain in the universe as they are more 'scholarly' in my opinion. The White Scars, Sons of Horus and Space Wolves would most likely be in the front line with the Iron Warriors consolidating. The Blood Angels and Imperial Fists and Emperor's Children would fight any uprisings and threats internal and external
(Word Bearers would become the purgers of the unfaithful, most likely. (Inquisition-like)), Iron Hands and Salamanders would probably be both in front line and then improving weapons systems and the like. Alpha Legion and Night Lords would also do this, and would probably be assigned to taking out ascendant races like Tau (with Terror and Subterfuge Tactics). The Big E would come out with whatever his big project was (my guess would be Long Range Teleportation) to further this cause. Something like that. Perhaps, 10 000 years later when the Necrons arise, the state of the Imperium as efficient and widespread would probably allow easier 'awakening' and therefore that would be the big battle. Then Tyranids come in and its a war on 3 fronts. Anyone's guess what happens there.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Night Haunter is rogue at this point and due to be censored, but the outbreak of the heresy prevents this. Vulkan already has his doubts about Horus. Primarchs have suspicions of each other for some reason or another.

Magnus is one of the Emperors most beloved Sons, but the Emperor chooses to ignore the contents of the message entirely. He's very quick to act on Magnus. Why not Horus? Perhaps he has something to hide, or a hidden agenda?

And Horus did break the Emperor

The Emperor doesn't completely ignore Magnus' message, there is an implication that him and Magnus actually have a serious (psychic) discussion about what the Emperor was planing with the Golden Throne and the Webway after Magnus breaks everything - which is why Magnus is so down on himself afterward as he now knows how badly he screwed up. Also remember that the only reason Magnus/the Thousand Sons gets crushed by Russ is because of interference by Horus. Magnus was the arrogant know-it-all who thought he knew what he was doing, not a sadistic madman bent on destruction.

Horus didn't break the Emperor, Horus + 4 Chaos Gods broke the Emperor - its a pretty big difference.

But yeah if Horus didn't go rogue then there still would have been civil strife. Angron would have eventually needed to be put down (unless the Nails just killed him). Lorgar would have probably still fallen to Chaos with Erebus whispering in his ear and triggered a mini Heresy, but without Horus to lead it there is no unifying leader to swing all the other Primarchs so it wouldn't have been as bad. Its hard to know what would have happened to Konrad/Night Haunter, since that is a true split personality is possible that the Emperor sets him straight (possibly by nuking his brain), but if the Night Haunter remained the dominate personality then eventually he would probably have gone rogue as well.

The rest I'm not sure about, because its impossible to know what the Emperors plan for the Primarchs and the Legions was once he had the Webway up and running. For all we know he might have been planning to just psychically wipe them from existence once they were no longer required, the same way the Thunder Warriors were 'no longer required' once he had unified Earth. The Wolves still have a purpose (enforcer), Magnus still has a purpose (sitting on the Warp Gate), Guillman still has a purpose (logistics/regent) but many of the others don't really fit into a post galatic unification scenario.

Then things wouldn't be Grimdark. and we can't have that.

 ChazSexington wrote:


He doesn't really have a reason to suspect Horus though - and Night Haunter went rogue rather than betray the Emperor, and his attack on Dorn was an accident ;p

Though Sevatar telling Night Haunter his methods sucked at pacifying planets was hilarious in Prince of Crows.

So a Son risking everything isn't a good enough reason? I'm not arguing with you and am fully aware of the whys and why nots, but am making a discussion. We know Magnus was a moron for trying to warn the Emperor in the way he did and I know why the Emperor didn't act on it, because the suspicion was leveled solely on Magnus. But why didn't he follow through and at least give it a look into. If one son can go rogue and another can ignore an edict that you have laid down for all to uphold, is it not possible that a Son has turned his back on you. Which from the Horus Heresy, we know to be the case. All that amazing foresight - that he didn't use. The original telling made more sense to me, where Magnus message was received at the outset of the Isstvan, not 2 years prior.

I guess we'll never know.

Powerguy wrote:

The Emperor doesn't completely ignore Magnus' message, there is an implication that him and Magnus actually have a serious (psychic) discussion about what the Emperor was planing with the Golden Throne and the Webway after Magnus breaks everything - which is why Magnus is so down on himself afterward as he now knows how badly he screwed up. Also remember that the only reason Magnus/the Thousand Sons gets crushed by Russ is because of interference by Horus. Magnus was the arrogant know-it-all who thought he knew what he was doing, not a sadistic madman bent on destruction.

Which is exactly my point, there was a psychic communion between the two. Surely the Emperor, with all that Psychic power, should have been able to glean that Magnus was telling the truth and that to at least investigate would be an idea. And the conversation between Russ and Horus is neither here nor there. The Emperor tasked Russ to rein in Magnus, I mentioned nothing to do with what transpired after this initial request.

Powerguy wrote:

Horus didn't break the Emperor, Horus + 4 Chaos Gods broke the Emperor - its a pretty big difference.

It was said in jest

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


He doesn't really have a reason to suspect Horus though - and Night Haunter went rogue rather than betray the Emperor, and his attack on Dorn was an accident ;p

Though Sevatar telling Night Haunter his methods sucked at pacifying planets was hilarious in Prince of Crows.

So a Son risking everything isn't a good enough reason? I'm not arguing with you and am fully aware of the whys and why nots, but am making a discussion. We know Magnus was a moron for trying to warn the Emperor in the way he did and I know why the Emperor didn't act on it, because the suspicion was leveled solely on Magnus. But why didn't he follow through and at least give it a look into. If one son can go rogue and another can ignore an edict that you have laid down for all to uphold, is it not possible that a Son has turned his back on you. Which from the Horus Heresy, we know to be the case. All that amazing foresight - that he didn't use. The original telling made more sense to me, where Magnus message was received at the outset of the Isstvan, not 2 years prior.

I guess we'll never know.

Yeah, I agree there's lots of plot holes and plot armour thicker than Arnold's biceps, though Magnus' record wasn't exactly pristine. Horus' was, and as Warmaster, above reproach. I guess it would be similar to Field Marshal Gort telling Churchill that Field Marshal Montgomery was planning a coup. It would seem ludicrous.

While I agree it all changes once you can lay down the evidence like Magnus did, but there's a mix of plot armour, plot holes and some logic.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Yeah, I agree there's lots of plot holes and plot armour thicker than Arnold's biceps, though Magnus' record wasn't exactly pristine. Horus' was, and as Warmaster, above reproach.

Above reproach from anybody accept the Emperor if it was called for, but ok. It still doesn't convince me that there weren't suitable grounds to at least investigate the accusation. Imagine what implications it could have if the Warmaster had turned on the Imperium ... oh wait, we don't need to imagine it.

 ChazSexington wrote:
While I agree it all changes once you can lay down the evidence like Magnus did, but there's a mix of plot armour, plot holes and some logic.

I struggle with the logic of it. Magnus had provided evidence, ill gotten granted, of Horus fall. Imagine what the outcome could have been if he had paid heed to his warning.

Anyway, I don't disagree with you as it's what we have and so it's as I accept it. I'm just delving into it a bit further as you can't always take everything at face value. This is one of those moments though why I am a little disappointed with the series honestly. Things shouldn't be explained by plot holes. Maybe in the upcoming book, The Crimson King, we get some insight as to what went on in their conversation.

 Psienesis wrote:
With humanity and the Eldar united, the Necron don't have a prayer.

This. Neither do the Orcs or Tau or Dark Eldar.

The problem with humanity fighting the dark eldar in the dark city is that the webway itself would be their enemy. In the dark eldar codex theirs a story about a dark eldar archon who summons daemons to fight with him then i forget who (vect?) seals off the section of the webway that he was in and now that lord is stuck their with his daemons. Whats stopping vect from trapping several hundreds of thousand space marines who are walking around the webway. I cant imagine a legion like the world eaters being hard to lure into a trap. the dark city is very distant areas connected in such a way that they appear only a step apart but they can be separated. Also the dark eldar would make something truly horrid if they ever got their hands on a primarch.

It's probably a lot harder to seal the Webway than it is to shut off part of Commoragh.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
1) Chaos Still would exist and would probably corrupt various planets if they are far away enough from the Big E
2) I doubt they could handily remove 100% of orks
3) Travel definitely would be better though they would probably have more eldar conflicts
4) no clue
5) Nids i though were running away from something not being attracted to the astronomicon
6) Tau would probably be removed fairly quickly though did the Big E actually have a anti Xeno policy?

given the success of gorro and ullanor, the Orks would definitely have been no threat to the Imperium. But the Heresy weakened the Imperium so much.

No. People are severely underestimating the number of orks. Orks orks orks orks

pm713 wrote:
It's probably a lot harder to seal the Webway than it is to shut off part of Commoragh.

Possibly, I think the imperium would win eventually but i don't think it would be a very fun campaign. The hardest part would be pinning the dark eldar down they would likely resort to gurriela warfare which the dark city is perfect for with its confusing design that would be completely foreign to the imperium. The dark eldar could hide and strike the imperium when they least expect it. They cant really blow up the whole city either because there are towers that shoot out large haywire burst to disable guns on ships. Not to mention the dark city houses four suns meaning its huge!!

It's not even the design part. It's the fact that there are so many portals between places the Dark Eldar control which means they have pretty big control over where people go.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Yeah, I agree there's lots of plot holes and plot armour thicker than Arnold's biceps, though Magnus' record wasn't exactly pristine. Horus' was, and as Warmaster, above reproach.

Above reproach from anybody accept the Emperor if it was called for, but ok. It still doesn't convince me that there weren't suitable grounds to at least investigate the accusation. Imagine what implications it could have if the Warmaster had turned on the Imperium ... oh wait, we don't need to imagine it.

 ChazSexington wrote:
While I agree it all changes once you can lay down the evidence like Magnus did, but there's a mix of plot armour, plot holes and some logic.

I struggle with the logic of it. Magnus had provided evidence, ill gotten granted, of Horus fall. Imagine what the outcome could have been if he had paid heed to his warning.

Anyway, I don't disagree with you as it's what we have and so it's as I accept it. I'm just delving into it a bit further as you can't always take everything at face value. This is one of those moments though why I am a little disappointed with the series honestly. Things shouldn't be explained by plot holes. Maybe in the upcoming book, The Crimson King, we get some insight as to what went on in their conversation.

Yeah, I struggle with the logic of it and I'm definitely not disagreeing with you. For being such a smart guy the Emprah done goofed way too many times.

Either way, it wasn't really "proof" - it was a psychic vision.

francieum wrote:
The problem with humanity fighting the dark eldar in the dark city is that the webway itself would be their enemy. In the dark eldar codex theirs a story about a dark eldar archon who summons daemons to fight with him then i forget who (vect?) seals off the section of the webway that he was in and now that lord is stuck their with his daemons. Whats stopping vect from trapping several hundreds of thousand space marines who are walking around the webway. I cant imagine a legion like the world eaters being hard to lure into a trap. the dark city is very distant areas connected in such a way that they appear only a step apart but they can be separated. Also the dark eldar would make something truly horrid if they ever got their hands on a primarch.

Which codex? I thought DE hated chaos, psykers and daemons