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 Azreal13 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Don't listen to the flame on the internet. Get a feel from the people you play with regularly and ask them.

For example, I play in a semi-competitve environment and regularly field 4x 5 man Dire Avenger Squads in Serpents at 1850. Wanna take a guess at how many people have ever complained, or refused to play me? The answer is 0, yep thats right, 0.

Again get a feel for your local players. Ignore the internet trolls.

Want to take a guess at how many secretly think you're a bit of a WAAC player with a boring, easy mode list?

At least by disclosing you play this list it does inform us of your very subjective opinion, and people expressing one different from that are NOT trolls.

Probably 0.

I didn't say that I exclusively field 4 DAVU Serpents. As I said above, I do so within a fairly competitive setting, where seeing Screamer Stars, Flying Circus, Grav Cent Star, etc is commonplace. I adjust to what type of environment I am playing in. I am nearing 10k points in my whole Eldar collection, and can field pretty much anything I can think of. For example, in a csual or fluffy game, I bring along my Craftworld Mymeara detachment (Hence my sig) complete with some Hornets, a Wraithseer, and a squad of Shadow Spectres led by their Phoenix Lord, Irillyth. For Hyper Competitive games, (such as the BAO GT I just attended) I might bring a Jetseer Council, which I feel is appropriate when facing lists like 2 Land Raiders + 3 Imperial Knights or a Baneblade Supported by an AV 14 Russ wall. (actual lists I played against in the tourny). If you want to derp out, and take what I said out of context, fine, but that will never be more than a testament to your own ignorance.

To the OP
As stated above, don't listen to the haters and flamers. Talk to the people you play with IRL and find out what kind of environment it is.

Take whatever you want, no-one should dictate to anyone the type of list they bring. It could be considered 'fluffy' to have all of your troops in waveserpents, zooming around in typical pointy-eared fashion. Personally I would play against any list at all, and the tougher the list, the bigger the challenge for me to overcome it, and the greater the satisfaction if I manage it.

Once (like no more than 1 but more than 0) I took 5 WS into a 1400 local tournament. I'm not gonna do that again. Not because some opponents were irritated but I myself got a feeling that it was boring. It was also easy to face a counter. Cron AV13, AM with leman russes etc.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Don't listen to the flame on the internet. Get a feel from the people you play with regularly and ask them.

For example, I play in a semi-competitve environment and regularly field 4x 5 man Dire Avenger Squads in Serpents at 1850. Wanna take a guess at how many people have ever complained, or refused to play me? The answer is 0, yep thats right, 0.

Again get a feel for your local players. Ignore the internet trolls.

Want to take a guess at how many secretly think you're a bit of a WAAC player with a boring, easy mode list?

At least by disclosing you play this list it does inform us of your very subjective opinion, and people expressing one different from that are NOT trolls.

Probably 0.

I didn't say that I exclusively field 4 DAVU Serpents. As I said above, I do so within a fairly competitive setting, where seeing Screamer Stars, Flying Circus, Grav Cent Star, etc is commonplace. I adjust to what type of environment I am playing in. I am nearing 10k points in my whole Eldar collection, and can field pretty much anything I can think of. For example, in a csual or fluffy game, I bring along my Craftworld Mymeara detachment (Hence my sig) complete with some Hornets, a Wraithseer, and a squad of Shadow Spectres led by their Phoenix Lord, Irillyth. For Hyper Competitive games, (such as the BAO GT I just attended) I might bring a Jetseer Council, which I feel is appropriate when facing lists like 2 Land Raiders + 3 Imperial Knights or a Baneblade Supported by an AV 14 Russ wall. (actual lists I played against in the tourny). If you want to derp out, and take what I said out of context, fine, but that will never be more than a testament to your own ignorance.

To the OP
As stated above, don't listen to the haters and flamers. Talk to the people you play with IRL and find out what kind of environment it is.

The answer is 0...+ the forum population. Seriously, anything you say is bashing eldar haters and praising eldar. I honestly hope they get some huge Nerf that makes them unusable.. But you're probably the type of guy that would sell the army and go to the next strongest.

Anyway back on topic. Listen random dude, field what you want as many have said. In another topic however, you noticed and commented on my animocity towards eldar. It is because of lists like that, where you only put 5 guys simply because you have to take them to take the serpent, that I have it. As others have stated, if you filled them, it'd be different. I know you don't to save points for other things, but its how a lot of us feel.

I really want to know what I should be bringing in my troop slots if I don't take Wave Serpents. Taking Guardians or Dire Avengers and walking across the board is just wasting points. Rangers got gutted along with every other sniper in 7th. Bikes are good for grabbing objectives late game, but that's about it. So what do I take for troops against other competitive lists?

For me it just depends how your group/opponent is playing. If he is playing casual I wouldn't spam. I try to build my lists around the group I'm with. I do enjoy a challenge though so I don't mind people spamming good units. I do hate when people spam units when they play someone who just started playing and don't have that many models because it seems to make them not wanna play.

A little off topic. I haven't played 7th ed due to not many people around my new base playing and having a weird work schedule, didn't they change it where if you jinked that you could only snap fire the next turn? Because wouldn't be somewhat easy to maybe avoid a ton of fire by making it jink?

Personally I say 4 is too many. Three I will play against without a moan. 4 I will shake my head at. 5 I won't play.UNLESS you have warned me that you are bringing a serpent spam. Here's the thing - I have built a cron list that smashes serpent spams everytime and I could probably do the same with any dex that is not BA. But those lists I build won't stand a chance against most other lists. You need to actively build a list to defeat serp spam but that list will be in no way tac. On the other side of the coin though, a serp spam will destroy almost every army sent against it without breaking a sweat. Because it is ultimate tac: insanely high endurance for its points; very high rate of high-mid strength firepower; ability to transport very effective AT units; can carry ob sec units; tl shooting of its high rof is effective against flyers; is one of the fastest non flyers in the game.

If I fielded a legally battle forged necron force of (not the anti-serp list I spoke of):
- 3 necron overlords
- Royal court with veiltek with shroud and 4 stormteks
- 3 5 man warrior units
- 3 5 man warrior units with 2 stormteks in each (all in scythes)
- 3 nightscythes
- 9 annibarges
For dead on 2000pts.
I would never ask why people are annoyed when I unpacked such an army, I would never try and claim that nighyscythes and annibarges are not OP for their points either, I would know I was being a total douche bringing such a list in the first place. I would know most opponents would not have fun against it.
The same thing applies to the serp spam. The serp spam however can have melta equipped units inside them and ob sec troops that will be scoring on turn 1 rather than waiting on reserve rolls.

I have to agree that in a casual, friendly environment Wave Serpent spam is not very nice for many people. Even if I personally like the challenge and have answers for it, many casual lists are not doing well against 5 or 6 Wave Serpents.

So to the original question I'd say in 1850 point games 2 Wave Serpents are perfectly ok against any army, 3 are nothing to complain about and the spam starts at 4 to 5.

Still I think the whining is only valid for a few armies. In my experience Tyranids have a very very hard time against serpent spam since they do not have AV13+. The only thing they can bring is flyrant spam and that S6 is not helping much with the Serpents.

The game is not even close to balanced. Wave serpents are known to be underpointed and overpowered. You have people in this thread who love to be abused and good for them, but for no reason besides GW said those are the rules.

Use your discretion. FYI, I have 3 and thats quite enough at 1500+. This system is predicated upon having a "gentlemen's agreement". So be a gentlemen and make your opponents enjoyment your top priority. Hopefully, they will reciprocate.

Yesterday I faced five in a 1250 game, with an assault army!!
Even with a shooty army this would have been very harsh at them points.

I had an opponent complain about 1 (carrying FD) in a 1500, because av12 4+ was rough. While he had 2 Russes parked in front of a DA 4+ field. Because AV14 4++ is so much easier...

For the most part, my opponents don't even like seeing the one my FDs usually run in, but the rest of the list is so fragile (Swordwind on foot), and it doesn't have the points to downgrade to a Falcon, so most opponents still like playing the list as a whole.

In my meta, 1-2 at 1500-2000 is OK. I have a third, but I haven't even fielded my second all year. But that's my meta.

Well, the Lanchester square law gives the answer.
If you double the number of Serpents, the enemy needs 4-fold fire power to eliminate them.

1

 extremefreak17 wrote:

As stated above, don't listen to the haters and flamers. Talk to the people you play with IRL and find out what kind of environment it is.

Ad hominem is not a healthy way of discussion.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, yeah technically there is no limit, but I look down upon min/maxing. Bring 5 troops, just to be able to give the a transport? That's lazy.

I mean yeah, I play Night Scythes. I never field more than 2, because I bring two full squads of Immortals with some characters every so often. My other troops take Ghost Arks. If someone were bringing more than like, 4, I wouldn't even unpack my stuff.

So, If I ran a list with 30 Dire Avengers in 6 Wave Serpents, you wouldn't even play me?

Pretty much. It would be no fun, whatsoever. I've dealt with 3 at 2000 points before, but not before they wiped out most of my av13 vehicles.

In all fairness, 3 WS in a 2000 point game is actually somewhat reasonable. I do have a question though....how are 3 WS shredding your AV13 vehicles with ease? Using Mathhammer, it would take 3 non-jinking WS firing twinlinked serpent shields (assuming a scatter laser is used) five turns to remove 10 hull points on AV13 (the equivalent of 2 ABs and 1 GA). During those five turns, they are not able to get the defensive benefit so they should be drawing a bit of fire and forcing them to jink reduces their number of hits and glances dramatically.

Don't get me wrong, pound for pound, the WS is the best single vehicle in the game (Nightscythes are a close second IMO). They are simply too good and too versatile for a dedicated transport available to most infantry units. Since the vehicle has always been a dedicated transport for most Eldar infantry, its unlikely that would ever change; however, a significant cost increase or a significant serpent shield nerf is in order. Given that the firing mode was ganked from the original Epic rules for the WS, maybe they should have made it a template weapon (with torrent rules maybe?) instead of an extreme ranged multishot weapon.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

As stated above, don't listen to the haters and flamers. Talk to the people you play with IRL and find out what kind of environment it is.

Ad hominem is not a healthy way of discussion.

I don't think you are using that term correctly there. You have taken a portion of my post, way out of context.

4 wave serpents makes me think spam.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
4 wave serpents makes me think spam.

Well I revised the list to include many units besides Serpents. It looks like this now:

Farseer
(5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpent) x4
3 Jetbikes
5 Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent
5 Warp Spiders
Crimson Hunter
Wraithknight

All of that's at 1850.

 Random Dude wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
4 wave serpents makes me think spam.

Well I revised the list to include many units besides Serpents. It looks like this now:

Farseer
(5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpent) x4
3 Jetbikes
5 Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent
5 Warp Spiders
Crimson Hunter
Wraithknight

All of that's at 1850.

Not to be a jerk, but considering this is a list I'm assuming you're not gonna play based on past threads, screw it, take whatever you want. This is just a theoretical list anyways.

Edit cuz words are hard.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
4 wave serpents makes me think spam.

Well I revised the list to include many units besides Serpents. It looks like this now:

Farseer
(5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpent) x4
3 Jetbikes
5 Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent
5 Warp Spiders
Crimson Hunter
Wraithknight

All of that's at 1850.

Not to be a jerk, but considering this is a list I'm assuming you're not gonna play based on past threads, screw it, take whatever you want. This is just a theoretical list anyways.

Edit cuz words are hard.

Fair enough.

 AesSedai wrote:
The game is not even close to balanced. Wave serpents are known to be underpointed and overpowered. You have people in this thread who love to be abused and good for them, but for no reason besides GW said those are the rules.

Use your discretion. FYI, I have 3 and thats quite enough at 1500+. This system is predicated upon having a "gentlemen's agreement". So be a gentlemen and make your opponents enjoyment your top priority. Hopefully, they will reciprocate.

This.

3 is reasonable at less than 2k.

 Random Dude wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
4 wave serpents makes me think spam.

Well I revised the list to include many units besides Serpents. It looks like this now:

Farseer
(5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpent) x4
3 Jetbikes
5 Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent
5 Warp Spiders
Crimson Hunter
Wraithknight

All of that's at 1850.

Not to be a jerk, but considering this is a list I'm assuming you're not gonna play based on past threads, screw it, take whatever you want. This is just a theoretical list anyways.

Edit cuz words are hard.

Fair enough.

That being said, I saw in another thread you may be planning on getting about 1k points of Eldar, so good job on trying to get into the game.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, yeah technically there is no limit, but I look down upon min/maxing. Bring 5 troops, just to be able to give the a transport? That's lazy.

I mean yeah, I play Night Scythes. I never field more than 2, because I bring two full squads of Immortals with some characters every so often. My other troops take Ghost Arks. If someone were bringing more than like, 4, I wouldn't even unpack my stuff.

So, If I ran a list with 30 Dire Avengers in 6 Wave Serpents, you wouldn't even play me?

Pretty much. It would be no fun, whatsoever. I've dealt with 3 at 2000 points before, but not before they wiped out most of my av13 vehicles.

In all fairness, 3 WS in a 2000 point game is actually somewhat reasonable. I do have a question though....how are 3 WS shredding your AV13 vehicles with ease? Using Mathhammer, it would take 3 non-jinking WS firing twinlinked serpent shields (assuming a scatter laser is used) five turns to remove 10 hull points on AV13 (the equivalent of 2 ABs and 1 GA). During those five turns, they are not able to get the defensive benefit so they should be drawing a bit of fire and forcing them to jink reduces their number of hits and glances dramatically.

Don't get me wrong, pound for pound, the WS is the best single vehicle in the game (Nightscythes are a close second IMO). They are simply too good and too versatile for a dedicated transport available to most infantry units. Since the vehicle has always been a dedicated transport for most Eldar infantry, its unlikely that would ever change; however, a significant cost increase or a significant serpent shield nerf is in order. Given that the firing mode was ganked from the original Epic rules for the WS, maybe they should have made it a template weapon (with torrent rules maybe?) instead of an extreme ranged multishot weapon.

Well yeah, 3 in 2000 points is very reasonable, and to be fair, it wasn't completely the WS's fault for killing my vehicles, if I remember correctly he had some Dark Reapers (Another unit that is BS IMO), and he was making them Invivible the entire game. But, as far as the vehicle killing, they actually only did maybe 1 or 2 hull points on an A-barge.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, yeah technically there is no limit, but I look down upon min/maxing. Bring 5 troops, just to be able to give the a transport? That's lazy.

I mean yeah, I play Night Scythes. I never field more than 2, because I bring two full squads of Immortals with some characters every so often. My other troops take Ghost Arks. If someone were bringing more than like, 4, I wouldn't even unpack my stuff.

So, If I ran a list with 30 Dire Avengers in 6 Wave Serpents, you wouldn't even play me?

Pretty much. It would be no fun, whatsoever. I've dealt with 3 at 2000 points before, but not before they wiped out most of my av13 vehicles.

In all fairness, 3 WS in a 2000 point game is actually somewhat reasonable. I do have a question though....how are 3 WS shredding your AV13 vehicles with ease? Using Mathhammer, it would take 3 non-jinking WS firing twinlinked serpent shields (assuming a scatter laser is used) five turns to remove 10 hull points on AV13 (the equivalent of 2 ABs and 1 GA). During those five turns, they are not able to get the defensive benefit so they should be drawing a bit of fire and forcing them to jink reduces their number of hits and glances dramatically.

Don't get me wrong, pound for pound, the WS is the best single vehicle in the game (Nightscythes are a close second IMO). They are simply too good and too versatile for a dedicated transport available to most infantry units. Since the vehicle has always been a dedicated transport for most Eldar infantry, its unlikely that would ever change; however, a significant cost increase or a significant serpent shield nerf is in order. Given that the firing mode was ganked from the original Epic rules for the WS, maybe they should have made it a template weapon (with torrent rules maybe?) instead of an extreme ranged multishot weapon.

Being a fast skimmer it is stupidly easy for wave serpents to get side armour. Also whilst your maths is correct, another way of putting it is that FOUR WS put out ~2.8hp a turn. So on average 4 dedicated transports can kill a battle tank at 72", shooting at front armour, in one turn of shooting, as it ignores cover. If they then recieve return fire they have a 3+ cover save, and it will take a LOT to down one, so you have 3 that probably haven't jinked.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Don't listen to the flame on the internet. Get a feel from the people you play with regularly and ask them.

For example, I play in a semi-competitve environment and regularly field 4x 5 man Dire Avenger Squads in Serpents at 1850. Wanna take a guess at how many people have ever complained, or refused to play me? The answer is 0, yep thats right, 0.

Again get a feel for your local players. Ignore the internet trolls.

Unless you happen to post on a forum to ask the internet.


I wish they had some sort of field allowance like Warmachine.

At 1000 points, more than 4.
At 1500 points, more than 7.
At 2000 points, more than 9.


But that's only because you'll be over.

Yay, Unbound!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Being a fast skimmer it is stupidly easy for wave serpents to get side armour. Also whilst your maths is correct, another way of putting it is that FOUR WS put out ~2.8hp a turn. So on average 4 dedicated transports can kill a battle tank at 72", shooting at front armour, in one turn of shooting, as it ignores cover. If they then recieve return fire they have a 3+ cover save, and it will take a LOT to down one, so you have 3 that probably haven't jinked.

Yes, they can get to side armour on vehicles, but Necron vehicles are still AV13 on the side as long as the quantum shield hasn't been popped (which serpent shields can't do). Also, why would you only shoot at one WS when there are 4 on the board? AV12 is pretty easy to penetrate, so any solid hits will generally force a shield-less WS to jink, which makes its shooting far less effective even with scatter lasers, so more than likely you'll get a turn of the WS running flat out with the shield active instead of shooting. Also, if you position your forces well enough, the WS will have to get pretty close to your line in order to get those side armour shots, which takes it into charge range, which even basic tactical marines should have no trouble taking out a WS in assault.

Again, not trying to say that WS are not OP, because they certainly are. Its just that as long as they are taken in reasonable numbers, they can be dealt with without completely dominating the game if they are being used as battle tanks. While WS shooting is deadly, IMO, their best use is as nigh-unstoppable transports for units for short range, high power units like Wraithguard or Fire Dragons. You know it's coming, and due to its speed, the serpent shield, and jink, there isn't a damn thing you can do to stop it from dropping that unit off at its target in turn 2 and wiping it out. Its practically a guaranteed kill for the Eldar army.

As folks have pointed out, there are a lot of opinions on what is OTT for WS. Ultimately, this will be determined by each own's local meta and what is deemed more fun to play against.

If I told someone I'm only bringing 2 Wave Serpents in an 1850 list, many folks would likely think it is perfectly reasonable. Then, that person sees me plunk down 30 Brightlances against their 5 Imperial Knight army and decree Brightlances are OTT. A lot depends on their particular circumstances and what their particular meta is like.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

As stated above, don't listen to the haters and flamers. Talk to the people you play with IRL and find out what kind of environment it is.

Ad hominem is not a healthy way of discussion.

I don't think you are using that term correctly there. You have taken a portion of my post, way out of context.

Calling other human beings 'haters' or 'flamers' is never going to be beneficial to the debate, regardless of context.

Have some respect for thine fellow wargamer.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

As stated above, don't listen to the haters and flamers. Talk to the people you play with IRL and find out what kind of environment it is.

Ad hominem is not a healthy way of discussion.

I don't think you are using that term correctly there. You have taken a portion of my post, way out of context.

Calling other human beings 'haters' or 'flamers' is never going to be beneficial to the debate, regardless of context.

Have some respect for thine fellow wargamer.

I understand your point, but you are still misusing the term. I can explain further if you like.

As for the flamer/hater thing: How else would you describe a person who spews rage and discontent towards another individual for no rational reason?