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 Sillycybin wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:


In all honesty I think if we had some sort of plastic drop pod, such as a Deathclaw warped up, I and many others would feel a lot better about our codex, as well as an upgrade to give our vehicles the assault vehicle special rule as well as replacing whatever the Demonic Possession rule with the Daemon rule and we would feel a lot happy about our codex imo..

These changes exactly would turn around the whole codex. I personally think the codex looks great and offers a lot but lacks these foundational changes to put what it offers into action. Any close combat army needs a delivery mechanism, to be cut off from outflank, infiltration, droppods, assault transports, and reliable deepstrike then to make the units expensive turns something good into something bad.

Whilst I agree with this, I feel as if many SM players do over react when us CSM players aren't happy with our codex and stereotype it all on "because its not CSM 3.5 ed" and as a CSM player who started with the 4th ed codex, it does irk me that people still go to this temple of stereotyping, so I only tried to talk about small things that would not "break the game" so to say but just give a bit more adage to us CSM players and make for a more interesting game imo..

I could of course just give a whole heap of ideas that would be much more fluffy and stronger but not be a "Helldrake 101" break the game style, if anyone wants to hear more ideas that should have come forth imo..

 Sillycybin wrote:

 Macharius. wrote:
To make it simple, CSM are upset because they look at the SM codex with its chapter tactics and great supporting units and see what their codex could be. With SM options they could create a really fluffy legion or warband.

More like Codex Space marine steals things like obliterators (centurians) marks (chapter tactics) and heldrakes (new wolf flyer) and gives nothing back

It also breaks the suspense of disbelief by blocking chaos from taking wargear they should have. So the crimson slaughter, a recent convert to chaos just decided to leave all their droppods and razorbacks and landraider variants at home when they left for chaos?

The chapter master also lost a wound because reasons.

 happygolucky wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I don't play either army (though I've played a lot of games against and alongside them), so this is the view of an outsider.

From what I've seen, SMs have a better and stronger book.

The CSM book just seems to have awful internal balance. It's filled with units that are either outright bad (Possessed, Thousand Sons, Mutilators etc.), or else compete with better options (e.g. Khorne Berserkers compared to CSMs with Mark of Khorne).

And, nurgle units/marks just seem outright better than their equivalents in virtually every situation.

They also seem to have a much worse selection of special/heavy weapons (in relation to SMs), and fewer supporting units. They also have a much worse selection of transports - with no Razorback equivalent, limited to the worst Land Raider type (which lacks PotMS), and no drop pods (which are amazing in this edition).

They have more combat-focussed stuff... but that's hardly a good thing. Combat has been dreadful for two editions now, and they don't really have anything to make up for that.

I'm sure they can make some decent armies, but the book just doesn't seem very versatile. Really, it seems like you're reliant on a few specific units to pull the rest of your army through.

This, basically..

What the codex really is, is basically Codex: Kill-Team, try a small squad out with the fluffy stuff like the mutation table.. Suddenly they become quite nice..

My problem lies with what I believe the direction the codex was taken in as I believe they intended the codex to be a CC orientated one rather than a shooty one, and that isn't great when the rules are aimed towards a shooty edition..

In all honesty I think if we had some sort of plastic drop pod, such as a Deathclaw warped up, I and many others would feel a lot better about our codex, as well as an upgrade to give our vehicles the assault vehicle special rule as well as replacing whatever the Demonic Possession rule with the Daemon rule and we would feel a lot happy about our codex imo..

It is very much a CC oriented codex, it's still very heavily built along the lines of the 4E CSM book, with its reliance on heavy CC units sweeping enemy units and consolidating into new combats, and that just doesn't work anymore, much like nearly 200pt AV12 gun platforms have problems in a game system that includes HP's

 happygolucky wrote:


In all honesty I think if we had some sort of plastic drop pod, such as a Deathclaw warped up, I and many others would feel a lot better about our codex, as well as an upgrade to give our vehicles the assault vehicle special rule as well as replacing whatever the Demonic Possession rule with the Daemon rule and we would feel a lot happy about our codex imo..

hmm ok like I said I play BA as my first choice army so here's my thinking....

we're as close combat orientated as you get for SM... I have access to a land raider and storm raven (then i charge turn 3)..... chaos have a land raider.... for want of 1 transport flier I don't see how it's a massive difference (please note i'm arguing the transport capabilities not the vehicles weaponry). However I've found you don't always need to use foot sloggers in transports... most of my best CC comes from bikers or some form of jump infantry.

chaos has got spawn, for fast tough fairly reliable demonic beasts. warp talons (price is an argument in itself) and raptors, as fast cc units/meltas/falmers. bikers (cc orientated bikers with a pistol and CC weapon!! wish BA got a choice for both), as well bikers as a collective being probably one of the best units throughout 6th & 7th.

So I can see how people can complain about CSM or beserkers who need a metal box to ferry them but mebbe taking the unit which relies so heavily on a "inferior" transport is the problem.

I've watched a khorne biker squad chew through an entire necron army almost single handedly (khorne lord+bike+axe of blind fury and you're away), I've seen chaos spawn tie down so many units that other CC armies couldn't do a thing...... but that's just my thinking

So that aside i do agree with the drop pods fore sure, would make hellbrutes alot more useful, and make the more shooty units like thousand sons being able to drop right in the nemies deployment zone very usefull. The upgrade to make assault vehicles seems a little ridiculous to me (like I said troops in metal boxes aren't the only CC option).....

Over all I think the problem is CSM is bent towards assault in a shooty edition.... doesn't make the codex per say crap just means it's tactics aren't as easy to pull off as in a cc based edition...

Also as a side note people needa start using block line of sight terrain.... again a whole other argument.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 happygolucky wrote:


Whilst I agree with this, I feel as if many SM players do over react when us CSM players aren't happy with our codex and stereotype it all on "because its not CSM 3.5 ed" and as a CSM player who started with the 4th ed codex, it does irk me that people still go to this temple of stereotyping, so I only tried to talk about small things that would not "break the game" so to say but just give a bit more adage to us CSM players and make for a more interesting game imo..

I could of course just give a whole heap of ideas that would be much more fluffy and stronger but not be a "Helldrake 101" break the game style, if anyone wants to hear more ideas that should have come forth imo..

I get where you coming from, just in my experience of chaos players so far all I've heard them do is complaining with continual reference to 2/3.5 (whichever edition it was) so hence i put it in just to prevent the same argument happening again... Just to clarify things

My favorite part is when people say how good the CSM book is and they are top tier tournament winners.

All that from people who use GK with Warhounds and Tigurius for Demon Summoning, Necrons, Tau and Eldar.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

I'm speaking of people in my area.

I think you misunderstood my post.

As a Blood Angels player, you can probably understand the current issues better than most players.

Imagine if your Codex didn't exist, but instead came out of the standard Space Marine book. Your Sanguinary Guard, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch and Sanguinary Priests simply do not exist; just use Vanguard Veterans or standard Chaplains, etc. Your vehicles are not Fast and your Jump Packs do not have DoA, Glaive Encarmines don't have rules and the Artificer Armour on your Honour Guard-Vanguard counts-as is purely decorative.
There is one BA-exclusive unit, and it is the Death Company. Your Death Company still have DoA but nobody else in the army does. In addition there is an upgrade available to most that trades Chapter Tactics for Red Thirst.

Your units are no longer special snowflakes, your special equipment no longer has rules and your one nod to fluff is of dubious effectiveness. You could try taking those Thunderwolves that have also been rolled into this book, or take the Grey Knight upgrade instead of Red Thirst, except all of the fluff is telling you that you shouldn't.

If you try complaining about it, suggesting that DoA should be available to everyone with a Jump Pack or that maybe the extravagant armour on your HQ/Elites should count as something special, the response is "Oh no, I know your kind! You just want 3rd Edition Rhino Rush back so you can fling your models upfield without thinking! I bet you also want Mephiston to have AP2 and Independent Character you dirty powergamer!".
Or sometimes, you'll get the overly optimistic player who just insists that you are doing it wrong. "Just spam out Land Speeders and Terminators, that's what I do and it works fine" despite neither unit fitting your armies fluff or desires as a player. "Or proxy Thunderwolves as Bloodriders, nobody will mind as long as they are painted properly" when all you want is a melee unit that can actually do its job, like you would expect a Blood Angels army to be capable of on its own.

This is not even a fair comparison because even if you were in this situation, you'd still have fair internal balance to fall back on and plentiful Allies to fill the gaps. You'd still have your plethora of transports and some variety in the Troops slot. Models have not been made outright illegal like Summoned Daemons or Chosen-Juggernauts.
You are still using ATSKNF and Combat Squads.

Mozzamanx wrote:
As a Blood Angels player, you can probably understand the current issues better than most players.

Imagine if your Codex didn't exist, but instead came out of the standard Space Marine book. Your Sanguinary Guard, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch and Sanguinary Priests simply do not exist; just use Vanguard Veterans or standard Chaplains, etc. Your vehicles are not Fast and your Jump Packs do not have DoA, Glaive Encarmines don't have rules and the Artificer Armour on your Honour Guard-Vanguard counts-as is purely decorative.
There is one BA-exclusive unit, and it is the Death Company. Your Death Company still have DoA but nobody else in the army does. In addition there is an upgrade available to most that trades Chapter Tactics for Red Thirst.

Your units are no longer special snowflakes, your special equipment no longer has rules and your one nod to fluff is of dubious effectiveness. You could try taking those Thunderwolves that have also been rolled into this book, or take the Grey Knight upgrade instead of Red Thirst, except all of the fluff is telling you that you shouldn't.

If you try complaining about it, suggesting that DoA should be available to everyone with a Jump Pack or that maybe the extravagant armour on your HQ/Elites should count as something special, the response is "Oh no, I know your kind! You just want 3rd Edition Rhino Rush back so you can fling your models upfield without thinking! I bet you also want Mephiston to have AP2 and Independent Character you dirty powergamer!".
Or sometimes, you'll get the overly optimistic player who just insists that you are doing it wrong. "Just spam out Land Speeders and Terminators, that's what I do and it works fine" despite neither unit fitting your armies fluff or desires as a player. "Or proxy Thunderwolves as Bloodriders, nobody will mind as long as they are painted properly" when all you want is a melee unit that can actually do its job, like you would expect a Blood Angels army to be capable of on its own.

This is not even a fair comparison because even if you were in this situation, you'd still have fair internal balance to fall back on and plentiful Allies to fill the gaps. You'd still have your plethora of transports and some variety in the Troops slot. Models have not been made outright illegal like Summoned Daemons or Chosen-Juggernauts.
You are still using ATSKNF and Combat Squads.

The reality is, the vast majority of people can only see things from their own perspective, even when they believe they are being objective, most people cant separate their opinions from the facts. The CSM book is pretty bad, that should be obvious to anyone familiar with the game. Thats just the way it is.

Hmm ok well it was cool to hear some varying opinions on the subject.

Lets hope some supplements will be coming out reintroducing legions with a "chapter tactics" kind of vibe, should make game style and lists more varied and interesting..

 l1ttlej wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:


In all honesty I think if we had some sort of plastic drop pod, such as a Deathclaw warped up, I and many others would feel a lot better about our codex, as well as an upgrade to give our vehicles the assault vehicle special rule as well as replacing whatever the Demonic Possession rule with the Daemon rule and we would feel a lot happy about our codex imo..

hmm ok like I said I play BA as my first choice army so here's my thinking....

we're as close combat orientated as you get for SM... I have access to a land raider and storm raven (then i charge turn 3)..... chaos have a land raider.... for want of 1 transport flier I don't see how it's a massive difference (please note i'm arguing the transport capabilities not the vehicles weaponry). However I've found you don't always need to use foot sloggers in transports... most of my best CC comes from bikers or some form of jump infantry.

chaos has got spawn, for fast tough fairly reliable demonic beasts. warp talons (price is an argument in itself) and raptors, as fast cc units/meltas/falmers. bikers (cc orientated bikers with a pistol and CC weapon!! wish BA got a choice for both), as well bikers as a collective being probably one of the best units throughout 6th & 7th.

So I can see how people can complain about CSM or beserkers who need a metal box to ferry them but mebbe taking the unit which relies so heavily on a "inferior" transport is the problem.

I've watched a khorne biker squad chew through an entire necron army almost single handedly (khorne lord+bike+axe of blind fury and you're away), I've seen chaos spawn tie down so many units that other CC armies couldn't do a thing...... but that's just my thinking

So that aside i do agree with the drop pods fore sure, would make hellbrutes alot more useful, and make the more shooty units like thousand sons being able to drop right in the nemies deployment zone very usefull. The upgrade to make assault vehicles seems a little ridiculous to me (like I said troops in metal boxes aren't the only CC option).....

Over all I think the problem is CSM is bent towards assault in a shooty edition.... doesn't make the codex per say crap just means it's tactics aren't as easy to pull off as in a cc based edition...

Also as a side note people needa start using block line of sight terrain.... again a whole other argument.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 happygolucky wrote:


Whilst I agree with this, I feel as if many SM players do over react when us CSM players aren't happy with our codex and stereotype it all on "because its not CSM 3.5 ed" and as a CSM player who started with the 4th ed codex, it does irk me that people still go to this temple of stereotyping, so I only tried to talk about small things that would not "break the game" so to say but just give a bit more adage to us CSM players and make for a more interesting game imo..

I could of course just give a whole heap of ideas that would be much more fluffy and stronger but not be a "Helldrake 101" break the game style, if anyone wants to hear more ideas that should have come forth imo..

I get where you coming from, just in my experience of chaos players so far all I've heard them do is complaining with continual reference to 2/3.5 (whichever edition it was) so hence i put it in just to prevent the same argument happening again... Just to clarify things

The problem more comes down to CSM in many ways is an assault army designed for 4th edition. It's slow, it's not that mobile. The thing with SM is that they get dozens of transports. Want some scouts? Put them in a land speeder! Want some big guns? Razorback! Want something to instantly make you a threat? Drop Pod! Want to drive to them on a cheap vehicle? Rhino! Want to hammer into them with elite vehicles? Pick from three different types of Land Raiders which also conveniently can sometimes hold more people in them! And BA trade out I believe the land speeder dingy option for the extra choice storm raven. Pick chaos and you have to foot it mostly.

Warp Talons are horrendous, Raptors are sub standard, bikers are actually pretty good (but not as good as Loyalist Marines), and spawn are spawn, while the daemonic beasts are a mess (Forgefiend really isn't worth it, the giant deffie is overcosted and a schizo machine, and the maulerfiend might be worth it). And you can say ignore the bad things, the problem is that most of the codex is bad, downright inferior. Even some of the good picks are, in reality, inferior variants of loyalist items.

And the only reason people look back to 2/3.5 (I own 3.5 but didn't actually start to get into this game until late 4th early 5th) is because, despite how horrifically, terribly, and absolutely botched they were in terms of external and internal balance, the 4th and 6th edition codices don't really have any class to mention with much praise. Monobuild, dull, bad choices about, uninspired, restrictive, bland.

And for a finisher, I just can't find the will to play CSM that much besides narratives. I am a Tzeentch player but the game punishes me at every single turn for wanting to play him. His icon sucks, his mark sucks, his special cult sucks, his sorcerers suck, his named character sucks, he has no special weapons... So no warband to be made there. And as per my legion? Thousand Sons. Shame they've been bad for... I think the last time they weren't bad was 2nd edition if that even had stuff about them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l1ttlej wrote:
Hmm ok well it was cool to hear some varying opinions on the subject.

Lets hope some supplements will be coming out reintroducing legions with a "chapter tactics" kind of vibe, should make game style and lists more varied and interesting..

Honestly I'd love to see this for pretty much every army.

And the only reason people look back to 2/3.5 (I own 3.5 but didn't actually start to get into this game until late 4th early 5th) is because, despite how horrifically, terribly, and absolutely botched they were in terms of external and internal balance, the 4th and 6th edition codices don't really have any class to mention with much praise. Monobuild, dull, bad choices about, uninspired, restrictive, bland.

It did allow for multiple builds at the least, back when we had sorcerer lords because GW realized CSM isn't just chapter variant of SW.

Though yeah, it's like for most of the expected melee they still think you can assault out of transports.

While I think most of what makes the CSM book straight up inferior to C:SM, there are a few things that I think need to be addressed.

Firstly, since when is ATSKNF a minor thing? It's by far one of the best rules in the game. I can only dream of having CSMs that can't be pinned or chased down after losing combat, while still having the ability to go to ground and choose to flee from a fight they can't possibly win. Seriously, Fearless can actually be a detriment sometimes, and the fact that we not only have to pay for it, but then it can also be taken away from a lucky shot, it's a real kick in the pants.

Secondly, it really doesn't help the demeanor of the CSM players when every time we try and bring up ways our Codex could be improved or brought into line with some of the other books out there, we get accused of wanting an OP Codex with an auto-win button. As many people have said, many of us just want a way to represent different legions, while others would be content with just having a book where a solid 60% of the units are, if not complete garbage (many are), just a crappy, overpriced version of things in other 'dexes.

Nobody is 'whining' that we don't get ATSKNF, we're 'whining' because SM don't pay for it. Also not getting swept ever, and being able to function normally after rallying is not 'insignificant'.

The amount of times I've fallen back, and when regrouped had to only consolidate d3 and snap shot instead of getting a free turn is countless. And then there's the times where I need snake eyes to regroup, or just straight up fail the test, which SM would have done automatically.

Or those games where someone uses three wraith knights, charges three large units of marines, and wipes them all out. Yeah I would rather have ATSKNF thanks. Maybe even just have it while the AC is still alive, and if he dies then there's no overseer making sure you don't run.

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is 'whining' that we don't get ATSKNF, we're 'whining' because SM don't pay for it. Also not getting swept ever, and being able to function normally after rallying is not 'insignificant'.

no but it's not the critical "if you don't have it you're screwed" the way some CSM players (for the record I have a CSM army) make it out to be. ultimatly you hear CSM players complain about not having razorbacks, not having land raider varients etc. and honestly? it comes off as sort of a whiny "I want it all" additude. I agree CSMs have some weaknesses that need filling, but it's not gonna be filled with spiked up codex marine units. GW's wanting to make each of their Marine dexes a little more unique these days. thus it'll most likely be fixed via something very unique to chaos. (a deamon engine assault transport would be spiffy)

Personally I'd like to see nearly every CSM unit in the 'dex given deep strike. CSMs suddenly appering from the warp to butcher their foes strikes me as pretty fluffy and it'd address some concerns

BrianDavion wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is 'whining' that we don't get ATSKNF, we're 'whining' because SM don't pay for it. Also not getting swept ever, and being able to function normally after rallying is not 'insignificant'.

no but it's not the critical "if you don't have it you're screwed" the way some CSM players (for the record I have a CSM army) make it out to be. ultimatly you hear CSM players complain about not having razorbacks, not having land raider varients etc. and honestly? it comes off as sort of a whiny "I want it all" additude. I agree CSMs have some weaknesses that need filling, but it's not gonna be filled with spiked up codex marine units. GW's wanting to make each of their Marine dexes a little more unique these days. thus it'll most likely be fixed via something very unique to chaos. (a deamon engine assault transport would be spiffy)

Personally I'd like to see nearly every CSM unit in the 'dex given deep strike. CSMs suddenly appering from the warp to butcher their foes strikes me as pretty fluffy and it'd address some concerns

The problem is they removed most of the stuff that made CSM not a spikey Loyalist codex, not to mention as it is they keep adding things we don't necessarily need along with just being more daemon engines.

I mean they removed options for our Chaos Lords (Ability to be psykers? That's certainly not loyalist), Ability to take cult wargear across the entire army, lost legion rules, have to pay for a bad upgrade that SM get free...

Also, we don't even get HH variants technically despite the fact that it was mentioned much of what chaos uses is because they don't have the new stuff. Sure we wouldn't have thunder hammers and Storm shields with land speeders fine, but why don't we have the HH variants again since we're still using Reaper autocannons and the like?

BrianDavion wrote:
no but it's not the critical "if you don't have it you're screwed" the way some CSM players (for the record I have a CSM army) make it out to be. ultimatly you hear CSM players complain about not having razorbacks, not having land raider varients etc. and honestly? it comes off as sort of a whiny "I want it all" additude.

I know, right?

What whiners those CSM players are. I mean, they see all those other armies with their variety of transports, good balance, interesting abilities and rules that feel like they were written for the right edition - and all they can think of is "I want that too."

Makes me sick.

I'm fine with the lack of being run down thing.

Making it also give fear immunity, free auto-rally even if only 1 model left, and a completely free turn with moving, firing at full BS, AND able to charge? That's a bit much. Take something away. No charge. Snap fire. D3 move instead of full move. Any ONE of those things would have been fine, particularly the no charge.

I'll move in, shoot a squad of bikers, get "lucky" and kill two, only to have them fail morale, fall back out of charge range, move forward, shoot me, charge me, win combat by 1 and then run down my entire unit. What would have been a really good situation for me turns into a complete and total route because they FAILED a morale check. Lessen their penalty for failing morale due to ATSKNF, sure. But don't make it into a BENEFIT when their spirit breaks and they book it.

I think the bigger question is why ATSKNF and Fearless are different rules?

Isn't "knowing no fear" literally the definition of "Fearless"?

 vipoid wrote:
I think the bigger question is why ATSKNF and Fearless are different rules?

Isn't "knowing no fear" literally the definition of "Fearless"?

It's supposed to be more 'reasonable' apprehension, abandoning your position for a better one.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It's supposed to be more 'reasonable' apprehension, abandoning your position for a better one.

But, why can't other Fearless units do that?

Or, are SMs the only army that's allowed to use tactics?

BrianDavion wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is 'whining' that we don't get ATSKNF, we're 'whining' because SM don't pay for it. Also not getting swept ever, and being able to function normally after rallying is not 'insignificant'.

no but it's not the critical "if you don't have it you're screwed" the way some CSM players (for the record I have a CSM army) make it out to be. ultimatly you hear CSM players complain about not having razorbacks, not having land raider varients etc. and honestly? it comes off as sort of a whiny "I want it all" additude. I agree CSMs have some weaknesses that need filling, but it's not gonna be filled with spiked up codex marine units. GW's wanting to make each of their Marine dexes a little more unique these days. thus it'll most likely be fixed via something very unique to chaos. (a deamon engine assault transport would be spiffy)

Personally I'd like to see nearly every CSM unit in the 'dex given deep strike. CSMs suddenly appering from the warp to butcher their foes strikes me as pretty fluffy and it'd address some concerns

My point exactly most chaos players complain about their models (usually the std csm model) being just spikey marines and how they want uniqueness away from sm, and with the same breathe "whine" about how they then want to get spikey versions of all the loyalist vehicles, terminators, fliers and drop pods....... Just seems a little contradictory to me.

Also everything I've heard once again reaffirms that the majority of csm players just want to play SM but with spikey bits, aside from a few who legitimately want their own specific legions with unique things, not just c:sm with blue spikes, red hornes, green boils or pink...... whatever is specifically to slaanesh lol.....

 l1ttlej wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is 'whining' that we don't get ATSKNF, we're 'whining' because SM don't pay for it. Also not getting swept ever, and being able to function normally after rallying is not 'insignificant'.

no but it's not the critical "if you don't have it you're screwed" the way some CSM players (for the record I have a CSM army) make it out to be. ultimatly you hear CSM players complain about not having razorbacks, not having land raider varients etc. and honestly? it comes off as sort of a whiny "I want it all" additude. I agree CSMs have some weaknesses that need filling, but it's not gonna be filled with spiked up codex marine units. GW's wanting to make each of their Marine dexes a little more unique these days. thus it'll most likely be fixed via something very unique to chaos. (a deamon engine assault transport would be spiffy)

Personally I'd like to see nearly every CSM unit in the 'dex given deep strike. CSMs suddenly appering from the warp to butcher their foes strikes me as pretty fluffy and it'd address some concerns

My point exactly most chaos players complain about their models (usually the std csm model) being just spikey marines and how they want uniqueness away from sm, and with the same breathe "whine" about how they then want to get spikey versions of all the loyalist vehicles, terminators, fliers and drop pods....... Just seems a little contradictory to me.

Also everything I've heard once again reaffirms that the majority of csm players just want to play SM but with spikey bits, aside from a few who legitimately want their own specific legions with unique things, not just c:sm with blue spikes, red hornes, green boils or pink...... whatever is specifically to slaanesh lol.....

"Most"

Sounds like confirmation bias because most on here just want to get away from being loyalist, aside from those who want to play renegades or otherwise.

It's just most likely that we really won't get much effective outside of getting SM things.

Though I'd love to have buyable mutations back for Possessed and general sarge+ units.

 l1ttlej wrote:

My point exactly most chaos players complain about their models (usually the std csm model) being just spikey marines and how they want uniqueness away from sm, and with the same breathe "whine" about how they then want to get spikey versions of all the loyalist vehicles, terminators, fliers and drop pods....... Just seems a little contradictory to me.

I imagine what CSM players want is some actual diversity and decent equipment - rather than having to make do with whatever bones the GW design team deigns to throw them, whilst at the same time slavering SMs with new stuff.

You call them whiners because they talk about wanting equivalents to SM transports, but what else can they ask for? Should they instead be asking for more variants for one of their demonic transports?

Oh, wait, they can't because there isn't a single chaos/demonic transport in existence. Literally all Chaos gets is a Rhino (far less useful for an army that tends towards CC) and the worst Land Raider variant. Meanwhile, SMs have about 7 different transports, including 3 varieties of Land Raider. And yet they still call CSM players whiners for wanting some more transports.

Actually, let's talk about SM players for a moment. Because, if CSM players are whiners then most SM players are arrogant, entitled sods who believe that SM - and *only* SMs - should have good gear, and will raise merry hell if any other race gets anything remotely good - even if it's still worse than their own equipment.

 l1ttlej wrote:
My point exactly most chaos players complain about their models (usually the std csm model) being just spikey marines and how they want uniqueness away from sm, and with the same breathe "whine" about how they then want to get spikey versions of all the loyalist vehicles, terminators, fliers and drop pods....... Just seems a little contradictory to me.

Also everything I've heard once again reaffirms that the majority of csm players just want to play SM but with spikey bits, aside from a few who legitimately want their own specific legions with unique things, not just c:sm with blue spikes, red hornes, green boils or pink...... whatever is specifically to slaanesh lol.....

I'd really like to see where you're getting this "most" from. The only time anyone's brought up things like Razorbacks in this thread is to show how many damn options loyalists have compared to CSM. There are very few things that loyalists have that CSM should also have. Here's a hint, it's basically just drop pods, and they should absolutely have them.

Every other complaint centers around the many varied armies you should be able to make with a good CSM codex, armies that would be very different from any loyalist force, except CSM utterly lack the rules to do so. Whether it's units/rules that simply don't exist but should, or units/rules that are nonfunctional as currently written, the CSM codex is severely lacking. Meanwhile the loyalist codex has no shortage of decent options and adequately represents many different chapters and fighting styles. I would bet you $1000 that if surveyed, most CSM players would want better representation of the 9 legions, not loyalist toys.

hmm ok well perhaps my generalization is a bit out of place, I do apologize, but like I said it's just from my experience so far...

to move slightly away and off topic but anyone have cool rules/ideas to change chaos into the legion type codex? besides the above stated obviously....

I'd like to see GW revert back to some of the older rules.

Base marine is undivided and can be in any army. Gets a reroll on leadership and is leadership 9 base. I thought this was an effect balance and different than ATSKNF, with CSM typically being harder to remove, but they could still be broken and run down. They also should get more options at the squad level to allow them to represent that they are rogue and don't follow the rules like SM.

Cult marines are the named ones (Berserker, Plague, etc.) and all have fearless. I think marked and cult marines while a reasonable idea, is poor in application because it becomes confusing. Cult marines should also represent a highly specialized role and be the best in the game at that role. Being the best would result in higher points per model, but they should really good. Khorne Berserkers should wipe the floor with any unit in the game except for maybe some highly specialized SW, BA, Ork and Tyranid units, at which point it should be close.

Tactics should go with the commander you choose.

If they are going to be a CC oriented army, they need to have the tools to support that gaming style.

Remove must accept challenges

Remove randomness of units, warlord traits, etc.

 l1ttlej wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is 'whining' that we don't get ATSKNF, we're 'whining' because SM don't pay for it. Also not getting swept ever, and being able to function normally after rallying is not 'insignificant'.

no but it's not the critical "if you don't have it you're screwed" the way some CSM players (for the record I have a CSM army) make it out to be. ultimatly you hear CSM players complain about not having razorbacks, not having land raider varients etc. and honestly? it comes off as sort of a whiny "I want it all" additude. I agree CSMs have some weaknesses that need filling, but it's not gonna be filled with spiked up codex marine units. GW's wanting to make each of their Marine dexes a little more unique these days. thus it'll most likely be fixed via something very unique to chaos. (a deamon engine assault transport would be spiffy)

Personally I'd like to see nearly every CSM unit in the 'dex given deep strike. CSMs suddenly appering from the warp to butcher their foes strikes me as pretty fluffy and it'd address some concerns

My point exactly most chaos players complain about their models (usually the std csm model) being just spikey marines and how they want uniqueness away from sm, and with the same breathe "whine" about how they then want to get spikey versions of all the loyalist vehicles, terminators, fliers and drop pods....... Just seems a little contradictory to me.

Also everything I've heard once again reaffirms that the majority of csm players just want to play SM but with spikey bits, aside from a few who legitimately want their own specific legions with unique things, not just c:sm with blue spikes, red hornes, green boils or pink...... whatever is specifically to slaanesh lol.....

Frankly the only thing I particularly care about is removing the centurion because it stomps on the obliterator territory, getting some decent AA (while I don't like the dinobots, I think they are a good idea of a design to differentiate us and should be a way to really make a difference), drop pods to bring a more efficient way to get close in to maximize on our army's orientation to CC and short range fire, not have terrible upgrades (mark of tzeentch, the icons bar one or two such as the Slaanesh one, daemon upgrade for transports, etc), expand the concept of cultists, make rules to mesh well with daemons so we can play more to our chaotic roots, support something a blend of legions and warbands, rules for the legions, some rules for more regular and recent warbands (undivided, marked, and etc), then combined arms to unify. Probably bad but it's a start. Heck, I wouldn't mind a supplement bringing this out just so the original book isn't front heavy, traitor guardsman so that some of these Lost and the Damned models I've been custom building and the sorts can come to be an actual army again , etc. I don't really care much about Plasma Cannons, Thunderfire cannons, thunder hammers, storm shields. Is it true from a technical point CSM should largely have access to such things? Yes but I'd be an idiot to say that CSM should have all those things and more. I want to see daemonic weapons, boon tables you can purchase mutations from to let you make a campaign, or set of campaigns, where your chaos lord can slowly gain extra mutations, have sorcerer lords, individuals capable of duking it out with a chapter master as true equals on the field of war, drawbacks, strengths, synergy.

Bring back the old mark system - having a mark makes you the cult troop. Give noisemarines the option of buying sonic weaponry, but still allow them to buy normal meltaguns and such instead.

Allow 15, 20 man units to take a 3rd and 4th heavy/special. Then you would see 20-man legion-style units.

Allow havocs to take 6th, 8th special and heavy weapons when they go to 15-20 man as well, but increase the points cost significantly. smaller weapons 10, lascannons and such 20 up to 4, then make them 25 and 40points apiece for the 5th-8th weapons.

Keep Veterans of the Long War as is. Give chosen the option of veteran skills like tank hunter, infiltrate, or even just preferred enemy Space Marines. Build Veterans of the Long War into their cost.

Bring back god-specific wargear.

DON'T make customizable possessed. People will only choose one option just like before. DO make every roll on the table be something useful.

For god sakes let the Daemon Prince be toughness 6.

I think cultists should be weedier. S2 T3or something. They're malnourished, they shouldn't be as skilled as a guardsman and as strong and tough, too. Give them options for meltabombs or at least krak grenades.

It's true that chaos marines aren't as steadfast as their brethren. But we're supposed to be more brutal and savage. If we're going to be sent running from a combat, make us hit harder while we're there.