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 Psienesis wrote:
You had to have buffed the Tau's weapons, because most Tau rifles can't even pierce a DW Marine's PA like 40% of the time.

Or your dice rolls were really good and you also granted NPCs a version of Righteous Fury (which I do, calling it Wrath of the Dark Gods).

Yeah... I had my 6 Marines face off against 5 or 6 waves of Tau, including Hammerheads... I think 1 guy might have gotten badly injured, but that was it. Of course, we were playing with the OP bolter rules at the time, but still...

With quarter of a century of roleplaying experience, I can safely say that Deathwatch is one of the worst systems I have ever played. I think only system which is worse is perhaps Twilight 2013. Perhaps.

By far the biggest problem is the ridiculous amount of special abilities, bonuses and equipment the Marines have. It's not that they are overpowered (though they are) but the way it is described game-wise is horribly clunky, laborous and annoying:

-first of all, Marines of course have all their starting talents, skills and traits. These alone are a legion - more than you will probably ever see in Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader campaign.

-then, the Power armour itself has various abilities, bonuses and kinks which have in-game effect

-then comes the speciality abilities and chapter traits, all of which give different kind of bonuses

-of course as you progress, you gain access to large number of talents

-then, the Fate points, Marines have more of these than regular characters, and more ways to use them, some of which are stupid (1d10 insta-heal)

-oh and then there are feats, though I seldom use them, simply because when you get this far, it's almost impossible to remember all the bonuses and abilities you have.

-of course, squad and solo mode also provide different bonuses, which you simply have to remember and try to keep track whether you are in solo or squad mode.

-lets not forget special weapons and special Bolter rounds, some of which are incredibly powerful. My group's Tactical Marine did much more damage with his sniper Bolter, than my Devastator did with a Missile launcher!

-and it's not helped by the fact that the rules are buggy, original weapon tables were ridiculous and probably not even proof-read let alone playtested, as a regular Boltgun was more powerful than a Plasma gun! Lets not even talk what Heavy Bolter did with original tables.

-...not to mention that the books have crappy indexes which are of little help when you are trying to find something.

In short, it's a terrible book from rules perspective (though not bad from lore perspective) and I can't really recommend it to anyone expect those who are really big Space Marine aficianados, and those who really love complicated set of rules. I recommend Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy instead.

I'm not sure if there is anything I can say here that hasn't been said so I'll just echo the others saying the other FFG 40k RPGs are better.

DW is very much the weakest in the line, even Only War has much more chance for character development and interaction while DW, well, nothing but war.

-lets not forget special weapons and special Bolter rounds, some of which are incredibly powerful. My group's Tactical Marine did much more damage with his sniper Bolter, than my Devastator did with a Missile launcher!

This is from the as-printed DW rules regarding bolters. There is an errata/FAQ on FFG's website which addresses this, because, yes, the as-published bolter has more potential damage output than any other weapon in the game.

Backfire wrote:
With quarter of a century of roleplaying experience, I can safely say that Deathwatch is one of the worst systems I have ever played. I think only system which is worse is perhaps Twilight 2013. Perhaps.

By far the biggest problem is the ridiculous amount of special abilities, bonuses and equipment the Marines have. It's not that they are overpowered (though they are) but the way it is described game-wise is horribly clunky, laborous and annoying:

-first of all, Marines of course have all their starting talents, skills and traits. These alone are a legion - more than you will probably ever see in Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader campaign.

-then, the Power armour itself has various abilities, bonuses and kinks which have in-game effect

-then comes the speciality abilities and chapter traits, all of which give different kind of bonuses

-of course as you progress, you gain access to large number of talents

-then, the Fate points, Marines have more of these than regular characters, and more ways to use them, some of which are stupid (1d10 insta-heal)

-oh and then there are feats, though I seldom use them, simply because when you get this far, it's almost impossible to remember all the bonuses and abilities you have.

-of course, squad and solo mode also provide different bonuses, which you simply have to remember and try to keep track whether you are in solo or squad mode.

-lets not forget special weapons and special Bolter rounds, some of which are incredibly powerful. My group's Tactical Marine did much more damage with his sniper Bolter, than my Devastator did with a Missile launcher!

-and it's not helped by the fact that the rules are buggy, original weapon tables were ridiculous and probably not even proof-read let alone playtested, as a regular Boltgun was more powerful than a Plasma gun! Lets not even talk what Heavy Bolter did with original tables.

-...not to mention that the books have crappy indexes which are of little help when you are trying to find something.

In short, it's a terrible book from rules perspective (though not bad from lore perspective) and I can't really recommend it to anyone expect those who are really big Space Marine aficianados, and those who really love complicated set of rules. I recommend Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy instead.

While marines get a ton of starting talents, given the cost of their advancements means a Dh/Rt character will quickly catch up with a marine in regard to the number of abilities.

I find it hard to believe Rt can be considered less complicated given that it includes a completely separate (and very poorly tested) rules subsystem, namely voidships as well as several xeno characters, each with their own horde of unique rules (career ranks, talents and gear).

As for the Bolter rules, while they were broken in their initial writeup they never reached the level of broken of Dh psyker rules and were quickly errata-ed.

 Psienesis wrote:
I suppose it just depends on how the party reacts. From my POV, and basing it on what I see normally in a Kill Team, there's a few options that (assuming average dice rolls) allow the Marines to put the Tau down inside of 4 rounds of combat.

Sure, but my point is that there is absolutely nothing in the game that a Space Marine can do, no combinations of skills and talents, or weapons or wargear that a Marine can pick, that a GM can't easily one-up. As a GM you have internet resources, and are basically God. All it takes is a little imagination, which is I think where most GM's feth up. Yeah, if your the type of GM to have your Marines turn a corner and "standing in the hallway is a fire warrior squad and some pathfinders- roll initiative" the Marines are going to wipe the floor with them. Hell, that's fluffy. But if you have any sort of tactical skills, that shouldn't be what's happening. Space Marines vs. Tau should be like Arnold Schwarzenegger and his Commandos versus the Predator.

I mean, using your later post as an example, a Heavy Flamer is nice and all, but it only has a range of 30 meters. Why exactly are soldiers whose basic weapon has a default range of 150m within 30 meters of a Space Marine? Any commander who has even a fraction of a brain would maximize the abilities of his troop's weapons, including their range- ergo unless you just happen to be inside of like, a bunker or something that's equally tight-quartered it really shouldn't be that broken of a weapon. The heavy bolter is nice until you realize that it forces you to be static in order to use it. Shouldn't every sniper in the area be focusing that guy down? Why aren't you using cover and Stealth Suits to flank him? They can fly. Shouldn't every unit in the fight be focusing fire on him since he's the biggest threat? etc.

The only way Deathwatch Marines can end a fight in 4 rounds is if the GM allows it.

- - - -

The system is indeed clunky as hell. But if you can't handle Death Watch then don't even try Black Crusade. It's Death Watch on steroids as far as complicated systems go.

 Psienesis wrote:

-lets not forget special weapons and special Bolter rounds, some of which are incredibly powerful. My group's Tactical Marine did much more damage with his sniper Bolter, than my Devastator did with a Missile launcher!

This is from the as-printed DW rules regarding bolters. There is an errata/FAQ on FFG's website which addresses this, because, yes, the as-published bolter has more potential damage output than any other weapon in the game.

No, this was with Errata weapons tables. He had Bolter mastery and I think some other abilities, scoped Bolter and Kraken rounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

I mean, using your later post as an example, a Heavy Flamer is nice and all, but it only has a range of 30 meters. Why exactly are soldiers whose basic weapon has a default range of 150m within 30 meters of a Space Marine? Any commander who has even a fraction of a brain would maximize the abilities of his troop's weapons, including their range- ergo unless you just happen to be inside of like, a bunker or something that's equally tight-quartered it really shouldn't be that broken of a weapon. The heavy bolter is nice until you realize that it forces you to be static in order to use it.

No you do not. First of all, Marines have Bulging Biceps so they don't have to brace their heavy weapons, second there are both Talent and special equipment (Deathwatch Suspensor) which allows you to move while firing a heavy weapon.

I didn't say they needed to brace it, did I? I'm referring to full-auto being a full-action, thus you can't move and fire with it in the same turn.

I'm aware of what the suspensor does- is that standard equipment for Devastator Marines? How does that effect my point in any way, shape or form? You're missing the forest for the trees.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I didn't say they needed to brace it, did I? I'm referring to full-auto being a full-action, thus you can't move and fire with it in the same turn.

I'm aware of what the suspensor does- is that standard equipment for Devastator Marines? How does that effect my point in any way, shape or form?

It is available at Rank 2 to everyone. It costs 25 Req, which is not much if you go by 'default' Req recommendations and allows you to move & fire, thus negating any downsides of a Heavy weapon.

Anyway, Stalker Bolters and Storm bolters with special ammo & Fire selectors (Hellfire, Kraken & Metal storm combo lets you deal with almost anything) are so crazy powerful that heavy weapons are seldom even necessary. Hordes can be dangerous for Marines as they can't be dodged or parried, but they have to be truly huge. Devastators and Assault marines thin the Hordes down at stupendous rate.

Backfire wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I didn't say they needed to brace it, did I? I'm referring to full-auto being a full-action, thus you can't move and fire with it in the same turn.

I'm aware of what the suspensor does- is that standard equipment for Devastator Marines? How does that effect my point in any way, shape or form?

It is available at Rank 2 to everyone. It costs 25 Req, which is not much if you go by 'default' Req recommendations and allows you to move & fire, thus negating any downsides of a Heavy weapon.

Anyway, Stalker Bolters and Storm bolters with special ammo & Fire selectors (Hellfire, Kraken & Metal storm combo lets you deal with almost anything) are so crazy powerful that heavy weapons are seldom even necessary. Hordes can be dangerous for Marines as they can't be dodged or parried, but they have to be truly huge. Devastators and Assault marines thin the Hordes down at stupendous rate.

Full-auto heavy weapons are still good due to the fact that you can only put sysupensors on heavy weapons (you can't move&shoot with a storm bolter) and hard hitting single shot stuff (like plasma cannons and multi-meltas) are still good at taking advantage of squad mode abilities that grant extra attacks.
I find Storm Bolter overrated tbh unless it'sa back-up weapon on a melee character. Storm Bolter caps out at 4 Dos, while a dedicated ranged char will get way more on average.

Da Butcha wrote:
Just my personal experience:

Deathwatch is GREAT in getting a game started. You don't faff around with 'you meet in a tavern'. You have missions. Those missions have parameters and goals. You execute them and they pick you up. Next mission.

Seriously, it's that easy. It's GREAT if you want action, because it focuses naturally on the action. I'll argue to my dying breath that you can roleplay even in combat, so I don't think that it's roll-play or roleplay. It makes it very easy for the GM to start up a new adventure, and end the old one. There's none of this "I visit with my girlfriend", "I check in on my old father.", "I go shopping for a hat," stuff which normal humans would normally do, so should probably do in a RPG too.

On the other hand, you are all playing Deathwatch Marines. It does really give you a fairly narrow group of archetypes to experiment with. You can't have the Han Solo, the Luke Skywalker, and the C3P0. All Deathwatch Marines are going to be loyal marines that do a fairly good job of representing their Chapter, or you are roleplaying wrong. The Chapters don't send screwups and loose cannons to the Deathwatch. These are serious vows of service. It can mean that your roleplaying is a bit bland. There's not really any "I'm just in it for the loot" or "Tagalong characters" or 'reluctant heroes'. You aren't just marines, you are exemplary marines.

Those 'exemplary marines' are the biggest problem I have in the game. It is still locked into this 'leveling up/advancement' mindset. Despite the fact that you are freaking awesome compared to a normal human, you still start as playing what feels like a pretty inexperienced Marine (instead of one of their veterans) and quickly gain experience and improvements. I really feel like Deathwatch Marines should already be insanely bad-ass, and really only have an opportunity to slowly develop and build the unique skills offered by the Deathwatch. However, this would make the game even more impenetrable by new players, as they'd be handed even more complex characters with even more convoluted sets of abilities. Still, it bugs the hell out of me that your Deathwatch Marine might not be all that great of a shot, or not terribly impressive in combat, or be a Librarian with just a few psychic powers.

Off the back of that...and a lot of what you other guys are chipping in with I just gone and bought a copy not ten minutes ago. Let's see how it plays
Thanks again

Backfire wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I didn't say they needed to brace it, did I? I'm referring to full-auto being a full-action, thus you can't move and fire with it in the same turn.

I'm aware of what the suspensor does- is that standard equipment for Devastator Marines? How does that effect my point in any way, shape or form?

It is available at Rank 2 to everyone. It costs 25 Req, which is not much if you go by 'default' Req recommendations and allows you to move & fire, thus negating any downsides of a Heavy weapon.

Anyway, Stalker Bolters and Storm bolters with special ammo & Fire selectors (Hellfire, Kraken & Metal storm combo lets you deal with almost anything) are so crazy powerful that heavy weapons are seldom even necessary. Hordes can be dangerous for Marines as they can't be dodged or parried, but they have to be truly huge. Devastators and Assault marines thin the Hordes down at stupendous rate.

Who cares. Both pulse rifles and rail rifles have 50 meters more range than a Storm Bolter, and a Stalker pattern bolter can kill a whopping one person per turn. Ooooooh, so scary.

You'll have a maximum of around 5 storm-bolters or 5 stalker-pattern bolters in a group, assuming everyone played the same class and took the same weapons. As a GM I can casually throw 30 pulse rifles and 10 rail rifles at a Deathwatch squad, even more than that if I felt inclined. I can throw an infinite number of pulse rifles and rail rifles at a squad if I desired, though that wouldn't be necessary.

Hordes are overrated and I don't really get why people use them. Why bother using a horde when I can instead just have two Fire Warrior squads, a broadside and a Pathfinder squad? The Broadside sits back with its 500 meter range gun in cover and the Fire Warriors sit back ~100 meters in cover, and they're all hitting on 75's because of the Pathfinders' markerlights (the Broadside's hitting on 95 because of twin-linked).

With the Broadside alone putting an average of 39 wounds on a Marine after TB damage reduction, that's vastly more than most Deathwatch squads can handle, unless they play extremely smart. And if they're playing extremely smart and they survive the battle, then isn't that the point of the game?

 Black Lantern wrote:
Off the back of that...and a lot of what you other guys are chipping in with I just gone and bought a copy not ten minutes ago. Let's see how it plays
Thanks again

Good luck. I think you and the other players will have a great time.

Play an Alpha Legion infiltrator. Put melta bombs in their helmets.

I've ordered the Dark Heresy 2nd edition, not got it yet though. Played loads of D&D and some WoD, but I don't think Deathwatch is any more difficult to RP, you just don't have quite the same range.

I've played all of the 1.0 FFG 40k systems.

Dark Heresy - it's good to give the shivers on players. It's quite dramatic and mysterious. But the mechanics, as already said in this thread, did not age well. They launched DH 2.0 to try a new perspective.
IN DH 1.0, you can play as Sisters!

Rogue Trader - this one is the best to show the real 40k; it's atmosphere, the relations of the Imperium and the other civilizations. It gives you some kind of freedom that neither DH or DW give. But the mechanics are so different inside the own book (players and ships) that confuse more than explain. I woudl'nt recommend it to a beginner in 40k RPG.

Deathwatch - it's for you that like less QQ and more pew pew. You can try to add roleplay motivation, but you need to be creative with your missions - or the players will become shoot-this-melee-that and move on. Ah, the squad mode stuff is a bit confusing and I always forgot to use it.

Black Crusade - for me, it's the most fun of the bunch. you can do basically everything and deal with the consequences. Being able to roleplay a Thousand Sons Sorcerer was a blast!
The mechanics are quite diverse from the 3 previous books, so you need to pay attention. I rather it than the old level-boxes.

Only War - similar system from BC, but focused on the Imperial Guard. It's way harder than the others; you need to be smart to survive. The requisition system blows (DW's is much more simpler to understand).

So, it depends of your group. If they want to roleplay badass big dudes killing stuff, DW it is (but pure hack'n slash becomes boring fast).
DH if they like investigation and surprises.
RT if they want to explore the galaxy and meet strange stuff (not advisable to beginners)
BC to play in another perspective and be more sandbox-y
OW if they like military chain of command and being just a tiny gear of the Imperium army forces

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Anyway, Stalker Bolters and Storm bolters with special ammo & Fire selectors (Hellfire, Kraken & Metal storm combo lets you deal with almost anything) are so crazy powerful that heavy weapons are seldom even necessary. Hordes can be dangerous for Marines as they can't be dodged or parried, but they have to be truly huge. Devastators and Assault marines thin the Hordes down at stupendous rate.

Who cares. Both pulse rifles and rail rifles have 50 meters more range than a Storm Bolter, and a Stalker pattern bolter can kill a whopping one person per turn. Ooooooh, so scary.

No they don't, Kraken rounds increase range by 50%, and there is no point not using them, unless you fight an enemy against which other rounds are even more effective.
Killing one person per round is pretty scary when that one person is the commander, heavy weapons guy etc.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

You'll have a maximum of around 5 storm-bolters or 5 stalker-pattern bolters in a group, assuming everyone played the same class and took the same weapons. As a GM I can casually throw 30 pulse rifles and 10 rail rifles at a Deathwatch squad, even more than that if I felt inclined. I can throw an infinite number of pulse rifles and rail rifles at a squad if I desired, though that wouldn't be necessary.

Sure, and you could also throw a Void Whale at them and rule that it will swallow the whole planet in one round, no dodge allowed. I fail to see the point of this exercise.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Hordes are overrated and I don't really get why people use them. Why bother using a horde when I can instead just have two Fire Warrior squads, a broadside and a Pathfinder squad? The Broadside sits back with its 500 meter range gun in cover and the Fire Warriors sit back ~100 meters in cover, and they're all hitting on 75's because of the Pathfinders' markerlights (the Broadside's hitting on 95 because of twin-linked).

Hordes are necessary because many enemies simply cannot hurt a Marine at all without the Horde rule. Tau Pulse rifles are exception in that they can (barely) get through Marine TB and armour even with their basic profile. But seriously, are you going to have every fight in the campaign against Tau Hunter Cadre in cover 500 metres out? I have not found big guns that scary against Marines, they fire once per round, and if they hit, they are simply dodged, and the Marines quickly gang up on the heavy weapons guy and kill him.

Necrons are also pretty scary off the top of my head. IIRC even.the basic troops have enough armor to require special ammo (which unlike Rt is not infinite) and Gauss weapons are pretty nasty. I also remember the nastiness of Lychguards (I think) whose weapon options included a pretty huge damage two-handed scythe or a rating 65 shield that could redirect blocked shots.

Chaos should be scary as well. Never fought them but if bolters are awesome and the enemy has them too....

Tyranids are a bit of a joke though.

Also, how are marines dodging everything? You get Dodge +10 and +20 pretty late and there's no Step Aside. You can barely get one 50% dodge per round.

This math discussion is terrible.

I myself always thought, that DW will be much more fun if it'll be played not as "best of the best...", but opposite of it - corrupted top to bottom organization with chapters sending there worst bretchen to get rid of them. So the killing power of characters will matter a little.

LordBlades wrote:
Necrons are also pretty scary off the top of my head. IIRC even.the basic troops have enough armor to require special ammo (which unlike Rt is not infinite) and Gauss weapons are pretty nasty. I also remember the nastiness of Lychguards (I think) whose weapon options included a pretty huge damage two-handed scythe or a rating 65 shield that could redirect blocked shots.

Chaos should be scary as well. Never fought them but if bolters are awesome and the enemy has them too....

Tyranids are a bit of a joke though.

Also, how are marines dodging everything? You get Dodge +10 and +20 pretty late and there's no Step Aside. You can barely get one 50% dodge per round.

Tyranids are terrible? Pfff, a group of Warriors alone, not even led by a Prime could pose a threat for a party. And then you have Trygons, Mawlocs, Lictors, Genestealers....all of which are nasty.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You had to have buffed the Tau's weapons, because most Tau rifles can't even pierce a DW Marine's PA like 40% of the time.

Or your dice rolls were really good and you also granted NPCs a version of Righteous Fury (which I do, calling it Wrath of the Dark Gods).

Neither. I just you know... took the Marines' capabilities into account and and strategized around them, just like the Tau would actually do if they had to fight Marines.

For reals. The problem is you never really know what experience level a GM is, so you have to be honest. With proper storytelling and combat setup you can easily challenge the Space Marines in Deathwatch, but as it is, out of the box and playing the pregenerated scenarios, they're pretty burly. And really, not everyone wants to play a ramped up version of the tabletop game. The biggest contributor to my disinterest in Deathwatch is that there's just really not much for Space Marines to do except kill people, unless you want to wander off the fluff reservation. But I see little reason to play a 40K RPG if you're not actually going to play in the canonical 40K universe. There are far better systems and universes out there.

It is quite fun. I say give it a whirl!