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In other words, you can't prove that I'm wrong and so you'll just try to insult me instead. Very mature on your part. Perhaps you should take your own advice and accept thet you can be wrong, because so far you've not proven that you are right.

I'm done with this thread unless somebody can provide some actual evidence to support their claims.  So far I've not seen any.  I've seen no evidence to support that they only meant that you can't move further in the Movement phase.  I've seen no evidence that just because Fleet occurs in the Shooting phase that it can be used when you can NOT move.

An identical situation occurs when a unit regroups at the beginning of the turn.  I believe the rules say something along the lines of the unit may not move, but may only consolidate I think 3".  The unit may shoot and assault, though.  So to help this argument with a precedent, do you allow a unit to fleet the turn that it regroups?

Also, the argument that a unit can fleet if it is ever allowed to shoot is a poor one.  The fleet rules simply state that a unit that has not shot that turn may fleet in the shooting phase.  If you allow wyches to fleet even though the rules say they may not move further than to deploy, then you would have to allow pinned units to fleet as well even though the rules say they may not move.

- Oaka

Pinned units may not shoot.

-Legacy40k

As much as it gauls me to defend Gaz's position, I've got to mention this.

I believe it is commonly accepted that a squad that deepstrikes is not allowed to move, fleet or otherwise, even though said unit may shoot on the turn that they arrive. My gut instinct is that the Wyches should be allowed to fleet after disembarking as well, but by the same token as with deepstriking no additional movement is no additional movement. Assaulting is an exception, as noted in the rules for disembarking from a vehicle.

Posted By kwade on 04/19/2006 10:10 AM
As much as it gauls me to defend Gaz's position, I've got to mention this.

I believe it is commonly accepted that a squad that deepstrikes is not allowed to move, fleet or otherwise, even though said unit may shoot on the turn that they arrive. My gut instinct is that the Wyches should be allowed to fleet after disembarking as well, but by the same token as with deepstriking no additional movement is no additional movement. Assaulting is an exception, as noted in the rules for disembarking from a vehicle.

I see the reasoning.. but there are 2 things.. Firstly,  deepstrike and vehicle disembarking are very different, especially from an open topped vehicle.

2ndly.. How many units can both fleet and deep strike?  lets assume for a minute you can fleet if you deepstrike.. since you can shoot.

Eldar Swooping Hawks, and Dark Eldar Scourges can?  and maybe a few tyrannids? (not too familiar with nids).  Now.. the reason you deepstrike is typically to unload a round of shots into an enemy, typically artillery or a tank that you could not easily get to any other way.  Why would anybody want to deep strike and fleet?  you risk the chance of landing on something and dieing.. just to allow your models to possibly spread out a little bit?  your better off running up the table on the assumption that they don't come in untill turn 3.. and on that turn they fleet so it is not untill turn 4 that they can even be used.

I simply don't see any reason why you would ever want to fleet of foot after deep striking.  Seems to negate the purpose of deep striking entirely.

-Legacy40k

Shooting really has nothing to do with being able to fleet.  Pinned units can't shoot.  Hormagaunts can't shoot.  The only difference is that pinned units are also not allowed to move, and that is why they also can't fleet.  Any restriction on movement also restricts fleet in the exact same aspect.  Assault moves are always mentioned on a case by case basis, so are an exception to a movement restriction.

I feel convinced that fleeting counts as movement.  If it does for castellan minefields, it does for everything else.

- Oaka

Posted By Ghaz on 04/18/2006 11:51 PM

In other words, you can't prove that I'm wrong and so you'll just try to insult me instead. Very mature on your part. Perhaps you should take your own advice and accept thet you can be wrong, because so far you've not proven that you are right.

I'm done with this thread unless somebody can provide some actual evidence to support their claims.  So far I've not seen any.  I've seen no evidence to support that they only meant that you can't move further in the Movement phase.  I've seen no evidence that just because Fleet occurs in the Shooting phase that it can be used when you can NOT move.

But disembarking says that you can't assault, it says nothing about not being able to move. It simply says you disembark 2" and can shoot counting as moving. Fleet says you can move in the shooting phase if you don't fire. I'm in agreement of the fleet after disembarking, although I originally thought they could not.

Snoog,

the problem is that there IS a statement that you are not able to move.

I think the argument hinges around this quote from pg 62.

"If the vehicles has already moved, the passengers move only far enough to deploy and cannot disembark at all if the vehicle moved more than 12" Once the models have desembarked, the vehicle may not move any further or make any turns."
-emphasis mine

If fleet is movement, then would it not violate "the passengers move only far enough to deploy"?

I'm not trying to get into the argument. I just wanted to refresh everyone's memory of the above quote.

I'm going to have to back Ghaz up on this one too.  After re-reading everything, that's what the rules actually say.  You can play with a house rule that allows it, or discuss it with your opponent before a game, but other than that you can't fleet out of a transport that's moved.  I'd like to see it the other way, but it's not in the cards for now.

Hmm... Since when does deployment equate to fleeting or movement for that matter?

The rules for Disembarking describe how the models my be deployed. If the vehicle moved more than 12", the models (passengers) may not deploy out of the vehicle. If the vehicle moved less then or equal to 12", the models may only deploy out of the vehicle. If the vehicle didn't move, the models may deploy out of the vehicle and make their normal movement. The rules are pretty clear as to what is PERMITTED when model disembark. The rules do not place any furhter restriction on movement, so models that are permitted to move otherwise may do so. Fleeting models may fleet after deployment. The rules allow the models to do so and place no further restrictions.

Posted By blue loki on 04/20/2006 8:15 AM
Snoog,

the problem is that there IS a statement that you are not able to move.

I think the argument hinges around this quote from pg 62.

"If the vehicles has already moved, the passengers move only far enough to deploy and cannot disembark at all if the vehicle moved more than 12" Once the models have desembarked, the vehicle may not move any further or make any turns."
-emphasis mine

If fleet is movement, then would it not violate "the passengers move only far enough to deploy"?

I'm not trying to get into the argument. I just wanted to refresh everyone's memory of the above quote.

But that quote only applies to the movement phase, when the models disembark, as it says they may only move far enough to deploy. As it says the vehicle may not move any further, and later the closed top vehicles restrict charging, but it says nothing to restrict your normal option of fleeting instead of shooting. Asince you are allowed to shoot, and it does not restrict any further you would still be able to fleet.

Again if this was in context it would be apparent that it is in contrast to a vehicle that had not moved yet, where the models could move their full move distance in the movement phase that they disembarked.

Two points:

1) Where do you see that the rule only applies to the movement phase? Nowhere is such a distinction made in the rules (I've got the page open right here in front of me).

2) The second bullet item under the Disembarking rules actually hurts your cause more than it helps it. It states that "If the vehicle has not yet moved then the passengers may move as normal after disembarking... ".

Nobody ever said it wasn't a razor thin argument, but RAW seems to go against the fleeting after disembarking.

Now, on a personal note, even after this if someone were to fleet with their Wyches after getting out of a Raider I wouldn't even bat an eye. It's such a commonly accepted interpretation, and such a razor thin argument, that it wouldn't be worth it to me to be TFG. I seriously doubt that the extra d6" of movement would be a gamebreaker, so I'd roll with the punches and let the Raiders fall where they may.

Kev

Technically, according to RAW, anything getting out of a vehicle that moved can never, ever move again in the game, period.

I don't know anyone who plays this way though.

Posted" by="" skyth="" on="" 04/20/2006="" 8:13="" pm="">
Technically, according to RAW, anything getting out of a vehicle that moved can never, ever move again in the game, period.

I don't know anyone who plays this way though.

Except to assault, but then only if the vehicle is open-topped.  Other than that though you're stuck there forever.

IRT kwade

1. ) "A vehicle that begins the Movement phase can disembark before or after the vehicle has moved."  -EDIT, crap I just caught that I *female dog*ered this sentence. It should be like "A unit that starts the Movement phase in a vehicle can disembark before or after the vehicle has moved." but I don't have my book infront of me. I think this is pretty clear that it is talking about the movement phase. The reason it points out later that when firing they count as moved is just to reinforce that the disembarking is moving.

2) Actually it does help my position because I am saying that it restricts the movement in the Movement phase, speficying that otherwise they get to move as normal supports my side.

I don't get how the other people are getting to the never move again ever point if they read the four paragraphs together.

Posted By kwade on 04/20/2006 7:38 PM

Two points:

1) Where do you see that the rule only applies to the movement phase? Nowhere is such a distinction made in the rules (I've got the page open right here in front of me).

,

And where is it stated the model can no longer move after deployment? I'm currently staring at the passage and I only see restictions to deployment out of the vehicle. Right. Models are permitted to make their normal move if the vehicle hasn't moved. Now, where in the rules is further movement prohibited? Or are you suggesting Fleet is a normal movement.

Everything's tied into that first bullet item on pg 62, the following phrase:

If the vehicle has already moved, the passengers move only far enough to deploy, and cannot disembark at all if the vehicle moved more than 12".

Technically, by a strict reading, the rules don't allow you to move any more during the game.  It should probably say "the passengers may move only far enough to deploy this phase" or "this turn" or something similar, but it doesn't.  That's where they're getting it from.

Of course, nobody plays it that way - this is an example where RAW gets thrown out the window in the name of making the game actually playable.

The reason I say the second bullet item hurts the argument is because it tells us that the models may move as normal after disembarking.  The implication is that in the other case (disembarking after the vehicle moves), models may not move as normal.  We can all agree that this is true, since it tells us how models are allowed to move upon disembarking (only far enough to deploy).

Finally, we must look at fleet to see just what exactly it is.  It's not shooting, it is movement that is done in the place of shooting.  So, if a model is not allowed to move as normal, and is only allowed to move far enough to deploy (and assault if disembarking from an open-topped vehicle), then a model must not be able to fleet (since it is movement and the only movement that is allowed by the rules is the 2" disembarkation move; and an assault move if the vehicle is open-topped).

Though I must reiterate that I wouldn't bat an eye if someone did it because I'd hate to have to go through all this during a game.

By that logic, "infantry may only move 6 inches in the movement phase" in the regular movement area would indicate that they normally could only move 6 inches the entire game.

 

Except that the game gives you a movement phase on each of your turns...

Posted By kwade on 04/21/2006 1:00 PM
Except that the game gives you a movement phase on each of your turns...

That's my point, disembarking happens during the movement phase. Saying that a restriction it gives during that movement phase would restrict it for the rest of the game without specifying the rest of the game like being immobilized does would be pretty stupid wouldn't it? Disembarkment movement restrictions only apply during the one Movement phase, not any other subsequent phase, and therefore would not restrict the model from moving the rest of the game (or even from fleeting in the Shooting phase of the same turn).

Your logic is that since it says "can only move XX" that it means forever. That's slowed. The movement rules don't specify "6 inches each turn" and they don't have to, because they only apply during that singel movement phase.

Again, the rules for disembarking only PERMIT actions, they next deny actions. Models can only disembark if the vehcile moves more than 12", can move normally if the vechile moved up to 12", and can only assault if the vehicle is open-topped.

There is nothing in the rules denying any other movement. Further, as snooggums and others have pointed out, normal disembarking happens during the movement phase. The only rule that extends beyond the movement phase is the denial of assaulting if the vehicle in not open topped.

No one has provided evidence otherwise.

Yes, you would actually be able to fleet, but the furthest distance that any model may move is 2" from the raider.  It says so in the rules.  So if you really want to, you can disembark 1" from the raider and then fleet an extra inch.

- Oaka

Posted By Oaka on 04/23/2006 12:59 PM

Yes, you would actually be able to fleet, but the furthest distance that any model may move is 2" from the raider.  It says so in the rules.  So if you really want to, you can disembark 1" from the raider and then fleet an extra inch.

- Oaka

I don't see why you think a disembark movement distance would carry over to the fleeting in the shooting phase, which is an extension of normal movement distance anyway. The restriction is only for the movement phase of that round, since it does not restrict further movement.