Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
End times is just a different way of playing the game. Its not replacing WFB altogether so you ain't exactly being forced to use it. Its hardly going to "destroy" fantasy.

This!

I love when people see something big coming out and think it's the the end of gaming as we know it. I for one am excited by the plethora of new fantasy models that are supposed to be coming out, as it is my mind is BLOWN by how awesome the Nagash and Arkhan models are. Not a big fan of Manfred (who looks like a mutant) or Neferatas head though.

I agree, 8th edition has its holes (glares at magic phase) but untill 9th edition comes out there is not much we can say thats negative, End Times is similar to Storm of whatever it was. We'll buy some models barely play the campaign setting and move on.

Well, clearly the people who think a rules expansion will ruin the game are just roleplaying "the End Times!" DOOOOOOM!

 FenrisianStuart21 wrote:

Also, @lobbywatson, you're wrong on in that non-daemon summoning lists are not competitive. One of our team members runs an IG/SW summoning list and it's brutal. When you have access to a bunch of dirt cheap Psykers that don't take up a force org slot, who cares if they die turning into Bloodthirster. Look out for the results of BeakyCon in Oct. He might just win it.

Can you tell me why there have been none in the top 16 at BAO or Nova? Also they were all but non existent at ATC.
Back on target/subject now.

Isn't this just going to be like 40K where you play crrrrazy unbound lists and knights appeared ? So, no panic.

But I play nids. I'm now conditioned for abuse.

You want to blow 1,000 points on lords in a 2k game? Knock yourself out. I've got enough skaven slaves and warp lighting cannons to drown you out.

Serioulsy though. I'm not super worried about the changes. Can that end with some armies having super powerful character combos? Sure, absolutely. Thankfully, 8th seems to have compensated already with things like Steadfast and step up. Those super characters cost, so more points on a few models is less points on the models you need to support them.

 TanKoL wrote:

@Purifier, that's why I don't mind 50% Lords / Heroes with my Skavens, if they have less troops, my rat darts / killy toys will have a field day with their pricey characters

Like I said, I don't think 50% heroes is enough to make it herohammer just yet. But depending on what changes come when 9th comes, this one change could be devastating to us.
I'm not so much saying that End of Times ruined the game, but with the 40k debacle fresh in my mind I'm being cautiously pessimistic about the future.

Meh, we'll look into it once 9th has settled. We're not going to change anything with the introduction of End Times just now. You can't field Nagash anyway (2400 points limit) and the change to 50% Lords / Heroes (if to be applied to all armies and not just End Times armies) does not seem to improve the game at first sight, so we'll leave it out for now. If anything, it makes the game worse by potentially improving magic. Then again, if someone wants to spend 1000+ points on characters...hm. I wouldn't do so.

Completely undecided on Lore of Undeath. Personally, I might think about using it for Goblins. Little Waaagh is nothing you'd miss and with the additional PD you get as a NG, you get higher chances at successfully casting.

You don't realistically get to pick and choose. It explicitly states that the 50% Lords and 50% Heroes is an update to the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You don't realistically get to pick and choose. It explicitly states that the 50% Lords and 50% Heroes is an update to the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer.

Actually they realistically do get to choose as this is a campaign supplement and not an Errata to the BRB...

 Kanluwen wrote:
You don't realistically get to pick and choose. It explicitly states that the 50% Lords and 50% Heroes is an update to the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer.

a) TOs make the rules for tournaments. If a TO decides to handle it differently than you want it to work out, then do not attend.

b) Until there's a FAQ for the book, it's not clear whether the new rules work for all armies in the entire game or just for games played with End Times rules.

 quickfuze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You don't realistically get to pick and choose. It explicitly states that the 50% Lords and 50% Heroes is an update to the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer.

Actually they realistically do get to choose as this is a campaign supplement and not an Errata to the BRB...

Then Lore of Undeath is "a campaign supplement" and unusable outside of the campaign.

You can't have it both ways. And really, this "campaign supplement" thing is getting a bit bizarre. Nowhere does it say that "These rules are in effect for the campaign and the campaign alone".
As I keep pointing out to you but it seems to continually be something you either have missed or refuse to acknowledge.

Warhammer:Nagash Vol. II page 21 wrote:
CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army.

The wording is the same as what is used for The Lore of Undeath

Warhammer: Nagash Vol. II page 14 wrote:
INTRODUCTION
This section of Warhammer: Nagash describes a new type of spell and presents a brand new Lore of Magic--the Lore of Undeath--that can be used in your games of Warhammer. Unlike other spells, which can only be used by Wizards who list that spell lore in their special rules, any Wizard can choose to generate spells from the Lore of Undeath.

But honestly, it's really not that difficult. These are the rules now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You don't realistically get to pick and choose. It explicitly states that the 50% Lords and 50% Heroes is an update to the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer.

Actually they realistically do get to choose as this is a campaign supplement and not an Errata to the BRB...

Then Lore of Undeath is "a campaign supplement" and unusable outside of the campaign.

You can't have it both ways. And really, this "campaign supplement" thing is getting a bit bizarre. Nowhere does it say that "These rules are in effect for the campaign and the campaign alone".
As I keep pointing out to you but it seems to continually be something you either have missed or refuse to acknowledge.

Warhammer:Nagash Vol. II page 21 wrote:
CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army.

The wording is the same as what is used for The Lore of Undeath

Warhammer: Nagash Vol. II page 14 wrote:
INTRODUCTION
This section of Warhammer: Nagash describes a new type of spell and presents a brand new Lore of Magic--the Lore of Undeath--that can be used in your games of Warhammer. Unlike other spells, which can only be used by Wizards who list that spell lore in their special rules, any Wizard can choose to generate spells from the Lore of Undeath.

But honestly, it's really not that difficult. These are the rules now.

I love how you get condescending when people don't agree with you...it's so cute.....now lets just agree to disagree and you can continue to try to sell people on your interpretation of the rules (as that is all it is at this point, the same as what I say is my interpretation of the rules). But please quit trying to tell people that your interpretation is the end all be all defacto how its done. Cause at this point there are plenty of people who disagree on that.

Essentially what we now have, are rules for general Necromancy and generic Undead Legions, such as those led by Nagash.

Perhaps in Ninth Edition there will be a generic Necromancer book, a book detailing the Vampires, and a book detailing Mummies.

If it isn't over powered (it doesn't seem to be) there's no great danger in allowing more flexibility. By and large a non Nagash LoU wizard is only going to be able to create relatively small chaff units. Useful but not game breaking.

Now it will be possible for the Bretonnian players to play a Mousillon list or the Empire players to play a Sylvania list.

Now Tzeentch can change life to death and death to life. Now Nurgle can welcome the dead into his embrace. Now Slaanesh can use its talents to make a dead man rise. Now Khorne can use all those skulls and bones and blood productively.

etc.

Just because its "The End Times" doesn't mean its the end of the game.

It was already possible for Bretonnian players to play a Mousillion list and Empire players to play a Sylvania list.

 Purifier wrote:
but with the 40k debacle fresh in my mind I'm being cautiously pessimistic about the future.

I understand why the two summoning abilities keep getting compared, but really they are drastically different mechanics that they're not really comparable.

Dice: There are far fewer static numbers in Fantasy than there are in 40k. Power level represents a chance at another die (and a poor one at that), with the 2d6 winds roll being a far bigger factor than the d6 in 40k.
Buffs: Dispelling an augment is the same as dispelling any other spell. Dispelling anything not targetted at one of your units, might as well not even be an option.
Method: The whole 4+ success mechanic for 40k is odd compared to the simple target number of Fantasy.

Like I said, I can understand the desire to compare the two situations, but they're really nothing alike. Summoning has been a part of WHFB for awhile, if limited to certain armies. It hasn't really broken anything.

GrafWattenburg wrote:
50% on lords/heroes? So you mean I can field more of the unique models I love and spend time on? Great. Do you mean my opponent might be more likely to bring big monsters? Also great as I have 3-4 cannons lined up for them.

Well, just to point out, some of us don't have 1 cannon, much less 3-4....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
but with the 40k debacle fresh in my mind I'm being cautiously pessimistic about the future.

I understand why the two summoning abilities keep getting compared, but really they are drastically different mechanics that they're not really comparable.

Dice: There are far fewer static numbers in Fantasy than there are in 40k. Power level represents a chance at another die (and a poor one at that), with the 2d6 winds roll being a far bigger factor than the d6 in 40k.
Buffs: Dispelling an augment is the same as dispelling any other spell. Dispelling anything not targetted at one of your units, might as well not even be an option.
Method: The whole 4+ success mechanic for 40k is odd compared to the simple target number of Fantasy.

Like I said, I can understand the desire to compare the two situations, but they're really nothing alike. Summoning has been a part of WHFB for awhile, if limited to certain armies. It hasn't really broken anything.

This guy has it down. The Reason Daemon summoning has been an issue, is because there's no cap to the Warp Charge dice. And the powers are much harder to dispel. As opposed to fantasy. Easier to cast in general, sure. But easier to dispel. Plus, you're not guaranteed any number of power dice in each turn.

Plus, as I've said in other threads, if someone other than Nagash or Arkhan is using the Lore of Undeath, I seriously feel sorry for that player. It's just not worth dedicating a wizard to that Lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
You want to blow 1,000 points on lords in a 2k game? Knock yourself out. I've got enough skaven slaves and warp lighting cannons to drown you out.

Serioulsy though. I'm not super worried about the changes. Can that end with some armies having super powerful character combos? Sure, absolutely. Thankfully, 8th seems to have compensated already with things like Steadfast and step up. Those super characters cost, so more points on a few models is less points on the models you need to support them.

This as well. Sure, I could take a Decked out TK in 1000 points, but I would feel sooo naked without my usual lvl 4 nehekharan priest and Light priests. So, it really won't change much.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
but with the 40k debacle fresh in my mind I'm being cautiously pessimistic about the future.

I understand why the two summoning abilities keep getting compared, but really they are drastically different mechanics that they're not really comparable.

Dice: There are far fewer static numbers in Fantasy than there are in 40k. Power level represents a chance at another die (and a poor one at that), with the 2d6 winds roll being a far bigger factor than the d6 in 40k.
Buffs: Dispelling an augment is the same as dispelling any other spell. Dispelling anything not targetted at one of your units, might as well not even be an option.
Method: The whole 4+ success mechanic for 40k is odd compared to the simple target number of Fantasy.

Like I said, I can understand the desire to compare the two situations, but they're really nothing alike. Summoning has been a part of WHFB for awhile, if limited to certain armies. It hasn't really broken anything.

This guy has it down. The Reason Daemon summoning has been an issue, is because there's no cap to the Warp Charge dice. And the powers are much harder to dispel. As opposed to fantasy. Easier to cast in general, sure. But easier to dispel. Plus, you're not guaranteed any number of power dice in each turn.

Plus, as I've said in other threads, if someone other than Nagash or Arkhan is using the Lore of Undeath, I seriously feel sorry for that player. It's just not worth dedicating a wizard to that Lore.

Sure, but I never complained about the lore of Undeath. I am not talking about a comparison between the two and never was.
What I'm saying is that when The End Times came, I saw the writing on the wall. I see dataslates and ally matrixes in the future. I see Steadfast being removed because removing it would allow for more Big Model sales as the singular models become stronger. I see Super Characters with expensive models and stat lines based more on their money value than points value.

It's like a Vietnam veteran hearing that we're going to go and liberate North Korea and all of a sudden the worst parts of the war flash before his eyes, and he's certain we're all going down that road again. And everyone around him doesn't see it. They all act like it's the best decision ever made, and he sees the exact same smiles on their faces and assurances of a quick victory that he saw before his war. The optimism seems madness to him.

I play Skaven.
Sure, bring your best characters....

how many Warp Lightning and Jezzail shots do you think they can withstand?

 master of ordinance wrote:
I play Skaven.
Sure, bring your best characters....

how many Warp Lightning and Jezzail shots do you think they can withstand?

My Jezzails have *never* managed to kill as much as they cost. Ok, I play mainly against a very fast wood elf army that always takes them out early because they die from nothing and cost a lot, so I usually get one shot. 5 Jezzails shooting at 5+ (the target is always far away) is unimpressive.

And I always tend to guess my range perfectly (I'll say 22" when I need 26 and perfectly roll a 4, every time) and then fizzle my WLC on the "bounce" pretty much every time.