Am I being a cop out?

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**Runic**

The strategy of a Dropdread isn´t based on it´s effectiveness in combat, or its stats and it isn´t working alone ( or if it is, you´re doing something wrong. )

It is to:

-Force your opponents hand.
-Cause confusion to his plans.
-Be another target that can´t be ignored, while not being so expensive you´d actually care that it dies.
-Give you a potential Linebreaker with the pod itself, if the opponent doesn´t want that he also has to destroy the pod.

One must realize removing a Drop Pod and a Dreadnought does take some effort, and it´s just one tenth of your army if even that. One should never look at a things performance in a vacuum of stats... but what other things it does for you in battle, and what it does to your opponent.

A dropdread is one of the best psychological wrenches to throw in your enemys plan. I´ve yet to see mine perform poorly - it always demands multiple units attention to kill ( especially if the enemy wants the pod too ) and all those shots are off from the rest of your army. Occasionally he just pods in, and busts a vehicle with the multimelta outright. Sometimes I hide him behind the pod, granting cover. And the next turn I charge something - unless the enemy moves away - great, his potential Heavy weapons are now firing snapshots/camping firebase is now scattered/defensive formation broken/battleplan straight up dismantled.

At that point the Dreadnought has already earned back his points, he is still in your opponents back, and so is the pod, which again, gives Linebreaker unless dealt with if you position it well. And if they are both dealt with they drew off all those shots away from the rest of your army - the most potential ones ( unless your whole army is Dreadnoughts... ) You are basically making your opponent direct fire at something you don´t even care about, but which can still potentially cause reasonable damage to an enemy unit and the opponents game.

-If the opponent doesn´t do anything to him, you have potential Linebreaker and freedom to melee/multimelta/flamer his units away.
-If he does direct fire to him ( never seen this -not- happen ) it´s just a Dreadnought, and all that damage is spared from your more important units. If you´re lucky he might soak up more damage than he should, and be a real pain. If you´re unlucky he blows up, instantly, sure. Have seen this happen once out of my 32 or so 7th ed games.

Sure, sometimes he might get blown up instantly with a single shot. Sometimes he blows something up with a single shot. Sometimes your Imperial Knight battlecannons your own HQ to death, stuff happens. You can ofcourse use other things than a Dreadnought ( 5x Sternguard with Combi-Meltas cause more damage on arrival, but dies way easier and so on. ) I find the Dreadnought on average is the best nuisance as it doesn´t die as easily ( unless for some reason one wants to pod him next to enemy AT every game. ) Since the OA dataslate came out I´ve been giving him a Callidus Assassin and a Drop Pod with a 10man melta+combimelta tactical for company on turn 1. That´s something to deal with, and it´s far from the "worst" you could do.

**jreilly89**

Jancoran wrote:
Theres no kill like overkill. Id rather auto glance, pen on 2's a couple times a round CONSISTENTLY on my Dark eldar/ Tau enemy than...not?

Like I say, Im trying to find minor ways you can modify the PLAN and not wholesale chuck the list. the list CAN do its job butyou need to give a Respectful nod to the opponent. He's playing to win too and your plan for when things go sideways needs to be at least 75% as good as the one where it all goes to plan. Just saying!

Right on. If you want I can list what I have currently and see if you can give me a good general idea for a list? If not from this, then a good idea what to buy next.

Librarian/Ezekiel

Chapter Master/Azrael

25 or so Marines, 1x Plasma, 1x Flamer, 1x Heavy Bolter, 4x ML, 1X Lascannon, 1x Plasma Cannon

6 Bikers, 1 Plasma, 1 Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

3x Land Speeders, 2x Heavy Bolters, 2x Assault Cannons, 1x Multi Melta, 1x Heavy Flamer

1 Razorback, 2 Whirlwinds

1 Godhammer LR, 1 LR Crusader

15 Deathwing Termies, 2x Assault Cannons, 3x Lightning Claws, 2x TH/SS

**Skinnereal**

Swapping codexes is the easiest way to see where the problems might be.
Is it the costs of the DA models?
or, the unit choices and load-outs?,
It could be that DA codex doesn't have the variety or choices you really want to run, and can proxy with what you have.
Or, just having a different set of chapter tactics rules is enough to make the difference.

Do it, see how it goes, and drop the DA codex altogether if it comes to that.
After a couple of games with non-DA, the penny might drop and you'll kick butt in new and creative ways with your DA.

If DA isn't doing it for you just now, either change DA, or
change army entirely. You can always go back.

**jreilly89**

Skinnereal wrote:
Swapping codexes is the easiest way to see where the problems might be.
Is it the costs of the DA models?
or, the unit choices and load-outs?,
It could be that DA codex doesn't have the variety or choices you really want to run, and can proxy with what you have.
Or, just having a different set of chapter tactics rules is enough to make the difference.

Do it, see how it goes, and drop the DA codex altogether if it comes to that.
After a couple of games with non-DA, the penny might drop and you'll kick butt in new and creative ways with your DA.

If DA isn't doing it for you just now, either change DA, or
change army entirely. You can always go back.

True. I'm waiting to see if I can get a SM codex cheap, but for now I've got some new ways to run a DA army. I might see if I can borrow one of my friend's codex and try out some chapter tactics, things like bolter drill sound really fun

**PhillyT**

Oh no, a fledgling Dark Blood Wolf Marine in the making!

In all honesty, just stick with Dark Angels. With an allied contingent from the main Marine book, there isn't really anything you CAN'T do that the main book does. The Dark Angel list isn't really any less powerful, it just doesn't have access to the cheese Marine lists that are tournament beaters (White Scar bike lists).

**Jancoran**

jreilly89 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Theres no kill like overkill. Id rather auto glance, pen on 2's a couple times a round CONSISTENTLY on my Dark eldar/ Tau enemy than...not?

Like I say, Im trying to find minor ways you can modify the PLAN and not wholesale chuck the list. the list CAN do its job butyou need to give a Respectful nod to the opponent. He's playing to win too and your plan for when things go sideways needs to be at least 75% as good as the one where it all goes to plan. Just saying!

Right on. If you want I can list what I have currently and see if you can give me a good general idea for a list? If not from this, then a good idea what to buy next.

Librarian/Ezekiel

Chapter Master/Azrael

25 or so Marines, 1x Plasma, 1x Flamer, 1x Heavy Bolter, 4x ML, 1X Lascannon, 1x Plasma Cannon

6 Bikers, 1 Plasma, 1 Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

3x Land Speeders, 2x Heavy Bolters, 2x Assault Cannons, 1x Multi Melta, 1x Heavy Flamer

1 Razorback, 2 Whirlwinds

1 Godhammer LR, 1 LR Crusader

15 Deathwing Termies, 2x Assault Cannons, 3x Lightning Claws, 2x TH/SS

Okay that gives me something to work on. When do you need it?

**jreilly89**

Jancoran wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Theres no kill like overkill. Id rather auto glance, pen on 2's a couple times a round CONSISTENTLY on my Dark eldar/ Tau enemy than...not?

Like I say, Im trying to find minor ways you can modify the PLAN and not wholesale chuck the list. the list CAN do its job butyou need to give a Respectful nod to the opponent. He's playing to win too and your plan for when things go sideways needs to be at least 75% as good as the one where it all goes to plan. Just saying!

Right on. If you want I can list what I have currently and see if you can give me a good general idea for a list? If not from this, then a good idea what to buy next.

Librarian/Ezekiel

Chapter Master/Azrael

25 or so Marines, 1x Plasma, 1x Flamer, 1x Heavy Bolter, 4x ML, 1X Lascannon, 1x Plasma Cannon

6 Bikers, 1 Plasma, 1 Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

3x Land Speeders, 2x Heavy Bolters, 2x Assault Cannons, 1x Multi Melta, 1x Heavy Flamer

1 Razorback, 2 Whirlwinds

1 Godhammer LR, 1 LR Crusader

15 Deathwing Termies, 2x Assault Cannons, 3x Lightning Claws, 2x TH/SS

Okay that gives me something to work on. When do you need it?

Not really any time soon. I'd just like some ideas to mull around/some point in the right direction. Also, what do you normally take for HQs?

**Jancoran**

jreilly89 wrote:

Right on. If you want I can list what I have currently and see if you can give me a good general idea for a list? If not from this, then a good idea what to buy next.

Librarian/Ezekiel

Chapter Master/Azrael

25 or so Marines, 1x Plasma, 1x Flamer, 1x Heavy Bolter, 4x ML, 1X Lascannon, 1x Plasma Cannon

6 Bikers, 1 Plasma, 1 Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

3x Land Speeders, 2x Heavy Bolters, 2x Assault Cannons, 1x Multi Melta, 1x Heavy Flamer

1 Razorback, 2 Whirlwinds

1 Godhammer LR, 1 LR Crusader

15 Deathwing Termies, 2x Assault Cannons, 3x Lightning Claws, 2x TH/SS

Okay that gives me something to work on. When do you need it?

**Davor**

First off, try this link if you haven't been here yet. Great place for Dark.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/6-dark-angels/

Lots of great advice there and a lot of people win. So if you like to win try going there and ask your questions. It takes time but yes we can win with Dark Angels.

Second this is your game. No you are not a cop out. Don't let anyone tell you how you need to have fun. If you feel you need to leave and try something else, go ahead and do it. Just be careful you may not win with Space Marines as well. It's not always greener on the other side. (no pun intended)

Third I will give you some words. I am just a faceless smuch, but when ever I see someone like you asking about DA on the B&C DA forum I usually say this and a lot of people like it. This doesn't mean I am correct. It doesn't mean I am wrong.

Fourth go ahead use the SM codex and play so you have fun. Just know you are playing Fallen when not using a DA codex. Nah I am kidding there, just having some good fun with you.

Fifth I don't play no more. But I use to play Tyranids and Dark Angels. In 4th edition I was a DA player. In 5th edition I was a DA player. A lot of people played with the 5th edition SM Codex. When I went to a tourney everyone was telling me to use the 5th edition SM codex and was going to give me their codex to use. I said "thank you but no thank you. I will use my DA codex to the bitter end.

I am stubborn that way. (no pun intended). So while I don't play now, I don't play because nobody plays 40K in my area no more. If they did, I still would be playing DA and Tyranids.

I am a Dark Angel. I am a Dark Angel player. I am Dark Angel because I love the miniatures. I am Dark Angel because I love the fluff and stories. I am Dark Angel because I love that there is more ways to play them. I can be Deathwing. I can be Raven Wing. I can Greenwing. Now with 7th edition I can even be Iron Wing. I can be all of them and mix it up and have multiple different ways of playing.

I am Dark Angel. I don't need to win. I play because I am Dark Angel. I am proud that I am Dark Angel. I can take pride in that I play because I love playing them. I enjoy them. I have fun with them. Others choose to play games where they need to win. We play because we love playing Dark Angel. We love the game. We play to have fun. We don't need to win. We loose. We win. Some loose a lot. Others win a lot. We don't need to win but when we do win, it is so much sweeter.

I am Dark Angel. I get so much enjoyment when I have DA mins in my hands. I love when I convert them. I love that we have multiple paint schemes. We have so much variation we don't be bored, it's never the same thing over and over again.

While I may not win when I use to play, and while I may not win when I start playing again, I don't loose heart. I am Dark Angel and I have fun. So my record is perfect, all losses, I stand fast and don't change.

I am who I am because I am Dark Angel.

That said Dark Angels are not for everyone. For you, you love the minis, you love the fluff. You seem to like everything about Dark Angels. Yes not winning and loosing sucks. Big time. Not everyone can take it. If you need to play another army, go ahead. You can always have Dark Angels and something else. You will see winning is not everything and you will appreciate the Dark Angels even more. If not, then Dark Angels are not for you and there is nothing wrong because of it. There is no need to be shamed. There is no need to be embarrassed. You need to play because you WANT to play. If DA doesn't do it for you then do something that does it for you.

Please go to the Bolter and Chainsword Dark Angel forum and ask for tips there. If anything and you play another army, it is a great place to be as a Dark Angel family.

Good luck and I wish you the best.

**jreilly89**

Jancoran wrote:

The cheapest i can get away with generally or the one that synergizes the best. Lol. I prefer the men to do the fighting and the HQ to be an expendable asset in some way (not that I'd throw them away but I'm not asking a lot of the HQ in most lists).

Keep in mind that I approach this from the enemies perspective: What will give them the most fitz. I am not a Dark Angel player but have faced them many many times and from that perspective I can advise. I'm versed on all the armies and tend to test them for about 20 games when they come out. The release schedule has been crazy so I am way behind but I know Dark Angels is playable and it does require really good deployment planning. the reserves in particular since they are such a temptation. =)

Good to know. I definitely havenot messed around with the reserves much, but it is something I am going to consider more. That being said, how does a single drop pod work? Does it come in T1 or roll for reserves T2?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
First off, try this link if you haven't been here yet. Great place for Dark.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/6-dark-angels/

Lots of great advice there and a lot of people win. So if you like to win try going there and ask your questions. It takes time but yes we can win with Dark Angels.

Second this is your game. No you are not a cop out. Don't let anyone tell you how you need to have fun. If you feel you need to leave and try something else, go ahead and do it. Just be careful you may not win with Space Marines as well. It's not always greener on the other side. (no pun intended)

Third I will give you some words. I am just a faceless smuch, but when ever I see someone like you asking about DA on the B&C DA forum I usually say this and a lot of people like it. This doesn't mean I am correct. It doesn't mean I am wrong.

Fourth go ahead use the SM codex and play so you have fun. Just know you are playing Fallen when not using a DA codex. Nah I am kidding there, just having some good fun with you.

Fifth I don't play no more. But I use to play Tyranids and Dark Angels. In 4th edition I was a DA player. In 5th edition I was a DA player. A lot of people played with the 5th edition SM Codex. When I went to a tourney everyone was telling me to use the 5th edition SM codex and was going to give me their codex to use. I said "thank you but no thank you. I will use my DA codex to the bitter end. I am stubborn that way. (no pun intended). So while I don't play now, I don't play because nobody plays 40K in my area no more. If they did, I still would be playing DA and Tyranids.

I am a Dark Angel. I am a Dark Angel player. I am Dark Angel because I love the miniatures. I am Dark Angel because I love the fluff and stories. I am Dark Angel because I love that there is more ways to play them. I can be Deathwing. I can be Raven Wing. I can Greenwing. Now with 7th edition I can even be Iron Wing. I can be all of them and mix it up and have multiple different ways of playing.

I am Dark Angel. I don't need to win. I play because I am Dark Angel. I am proud that I am Dark Angel. I can take pride in that I play because I love playing them. I enjoy them. I have fun with them. Others choose to play games where they need to win. We play because we love playing Dark Angel. We love the game. We play to have fun. We don't need to win. We loose. We win. Some loose a lot. Others win a lot. We don't need to win but when we do win, it is so much sweeter.

I am Dark Angel. I get so much enjoyment when I have DA mins in my hands. I love when I convert them. I love that we have multiple paint schemes. We have so much variation we don't be bored, it's never the same thing over and over again.

While I may not win when I use to play, and while I may not win when I start playing again, I don't loose heart. I am Dark Angel and I have fun. So my record is perfect, all losses, I stand fast and don't change.

I am who I am because I am Dark Angel.

That said Dark Angels are not for everyone. For you, you love the minis, you love the fluff. You seem to like everything about Dark Angels. Yes not winning and loosing sucks. Big time. Not everyone can take it. If you need to play another army, go ahead. You can always have Dark Angels and something else. You will see winning is not everything and you will appreciate the Dark Angels even more. If not, then Dark Angels are not for you and there is nothing wrong because of it. There is no need to be shamed. There is no need to be embarrassed. You need to play because you WANT to play. If DA doesn't do it for you then do something that does it for you.

Please go to the Bolter and Chainsword Dark Angel forum and ask for tips there. If anything and you play another army, it is a great place to be as a Dark Angel family.

Good luck and I wish you the best.

Wow, thank you for the advice. I am a DA player, I will always be, it's just tough to deal with some of the losses sometimes. But I will always be a DA player, I love their lore too much to not be. I've considered getting the SM codex because the chapter tactics do sound like hilarious fun, especially taking an all flamey Salamanders army. But I will always love fielding my various Wings. Thanks for the perspective

**darthdaddy**

The only shame you should feel in loosing if if you don't learn from it. There is no list that can beat all armies you must know your enemies weaknesses and build a list to take advantage of them.

**jreilly89**

True that, Darth