Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Seriously, did the 7th Edition Necron Codex come out???

(if not, I'd recommend an edit to the subject of the thread)

No, it's just talking about the codex in light of 7th edition.

Skoffs as always great post. I liked figuring what's what in the codex for myself(partially because I think I know best, common warhammer trait) but this guide would have helped a lot when I started. That being said I only have a couple things to add.

If you aren't playing forgeworld and you want to have a bit of fun try fielding 2 doomsday archs on a skysheild(3 won't physically fit) and then make a list that protects those two cannons with bubble wrap and maybe some anti assault in the form of wraiths or scarabs. They never have to jink as they already have a 4++ and they are relatively safe from assualt up on the skyshield. Kinda a fun list but by no means tournament class.

If forgeworld is allowed and you take sentry pylons with the focussed death ray be wary of who you are playing. I have had games with no issues but I have also had games where the opposing player try's to argue about the way it fires. It's a basic vs advanced issue but what isn't clear is what shooting phase rules it obeys and which ones it doesn't. The main two being do you have to pick a target(another unit you are primarily shooting at) and do you have to be in line of sight to pick the point where the line begins and ends. This has been hotly debated and without a FAQ nobody really know what the intent of all powerful gw staff are. Just be careful going to tournaments and you should be fine. Fantastic unit as long as you can fire it the way RaW says it fires because it allows you to stop the line before 3d6 you can effectively fire into melee combat with a s10 ap1 double hit weapon. Which is crazy good. And you can pick three different points to fire a unit at. Again if play RaW then they are an A+ for me but when they get bogged down in debate the game becomes not fun.

Only major disagreement I have with OP is with the Triarch Stalker. After oh so many games with Necrons, a Triarch Stalker w/ TL HGC (just 1 mind you), has been my consistent MVP in any game that doesn't involve a Transcendent C'Tan.

I don't bring it if I am going TL Tesla Destructor-heavy, so that's the reason I'd wouldn't give it an S.

But with TL HGC, I'd give it a solid A, personally (in the Melta Configuration, I wouldn't even use it)

I might proxy my Tomb Stalker as a Triarch Stalker at some point to try out the gimmick. They're both Stalkers after all, basically simmilarish proportions when based.

But anyhow the Skyshield for Invulnerable Saves reminds me of something: The Tesseract Ark. Mine's a converted Ghost Ark with only two sets of ribs, a prow in the top slot and Annie Barge guns for the sidearms.

Heavy Skimmer, AV 12 with Quantum Shields, 4 hp, 5++ invulnerable. Costs as much as a Land Raider, but when you shoot three plasma blasts 48 inches with no getting hot along with two other fire modes and two tesla cannons for backup, totally worth it.

I'd give it a solid A. Long range heavy offence with point defences and lasting durability. 1 in 3 chance of detonating very violently on a Weapon Destroyed though: The main gun contains a trapped singularity from a black hole and breaching that containment ain't good.

Not gonna lie - I got excited and thought this meant that there was going to be a seventh edition codex soon....oh well haha soon enough. As long as wraiths keep rocking I'll be happy.

 Akar wrote:
In all honestly this thread should never have been made and shouldn't exist for any army. (Personal Belief, but really? What ever happened to letting players just buying what they think is good, and learning for themselves?)

That said, you've done an amazing job putting it together. So here goes.
HQ:
Nemesor Zahndrekh Should probably add in here that he's the best HQ for players just learning how to play Necrons, which seems to be one of the points you're aiming at with this thread. Yes, this is my opinion, and while I don't field him often anymore, I'd put him on the table LONG before I consider taking a D-Lord or a CCB Lord.

CCB Lord: 'A' but should be a 'B'. (On foot still an A+) For reasons already posted, but there are better places for the points. I'm in the camp that he's only so good because of the minority of players exploiting rules. I don't think any Necron player will expect him to remain this way. Definately not an auto-include even in his current state. He's just too easy to deal with.

Destroyer Lord: 'B' at best because no Court option. With Wraiths, he might go up, but still remains at a 'B' because in a competitive environment, they're still fairly reasonable to deal with and fluctuate greatly depending on the Meta. I don't run them anymore because they stopped making their points back. They're good, but not 'S' good.

TRANSPORT
CCB: Again, a 'B'.

Ghost Ark: Only an 'S' in Warrior heavy armies with Warriors both in and out of the GA. Only a 'C' if you're just going to bring it with some Warriors inside and run Immortal Heavy. Overall, should just be a 'B'.

Night Scythe: 'A++' if you had such a rating. That said, they aren't vital.

TROOPS
Warriors:The BEST unit in the whole codex. Don't assume that Warriors are any more vulnerable to assault than any other shooting unit in the game. Yes, this is one of the weakest aspects of the unit, but it is by no means a flaw. Things that take them out in assault probably take out most things in an assault.

ELITES:
Deathmarks: solid 'A' / 'B+', even with the Despairtek. Only because you have to also sink points into the Accompanying Night Scythe, and you might get lucky to get a return on the points needed to do that in a competitive environment.

Triarch Stalkers: Vary too greatly depending on A) How many guns you're bringing and B) How many points the game is which directly affects point A. Should probably just add 'For infantry heavy armies'

Flayed Ones: C on their own. Compared side by side with Warriors, they're not good at all. Like Warriors they get better with support. BEST unit in the Codex to put a 'D-Lord', and match made by Orikan if you bring them with Zahndrekh. Even goes up to a 'B+' when you put a D-Lord in the unit with Zahdrekh. Yes it's pricey, but not when compared to the points people sink into a D-Lord/Wraithstar or Scarab farm. It's right on par, and should be graded as such. Even having said that. Do NOT recommend it for new players, it's something that Necron players should look at after they've gotten comfortable with the army, in particular how RP works.

FAST ATTACK:
Wraiths: Should be a solid 'B', moving into a 'B+' with the D-Lord. As above in the D-Lord, they're good, just not enough to warrant that high of a rating. Necron players will do just fine w/o them, but they're still a good unit while newer players figure out the rest of the army. I only see problems when Necron players become dependent on them. The reward is awesome when your opponent doesn't know what to do when they're not on the table.

Canoptek Scarabs: Should be on par with Wraiths and Flayed Ones. They were good in 5th because of their Jet Bike move. While less mobile, you're right on the money with what they do.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Annihilation Barge: This rating changes based on the size of the game. 'S' @ 500 pts. 'A' 500-1000, 'B' 100-1500, 'C+' 1500+. Quantum Shielding at lower points makes them great choices, at higher points, they're just like any other tank that you'd see. Recommend taking 2 at most on any list at any points level.

Doomsday Ark: Should probably be a 'C'. All your points are valid, but they are the only weapon we have in the Codex that fires over 36". Really only handy knowledge if you know you're going to be playing a Hammer and Anvil mission in advance, and still sits behind the Night/Doomscythe because they have the mobility to make up for their range. Yes, newer players should probably avoid this until the new Dex, but it's at least on par with the Monolith.

-----
Like you, I don't have much of an opinion on FW units, because I refuse to play with/against them for various personal beliefs, but glad they're included for sake of thoroughness.

While I'm under the impression that Necrons are one of the codex that won't benefit from any kind of allies, having other players opinions on which armies work well with Necrons for new player consideration would be a good thing to add to your project. Especially for consideration in a competitive environment.

I disagree with a lot of this. Except for Nemesor, as he's a pretty cool guy.

How would a Foot Overlord get an A+ compared to the CCB version getting a B? There's less mobility AND durability on that end, not to mention the additional killing power the CCB brings. There's no exploitation on rules or anything, simply put.

Destroyer Lords also get such a high ranking not only because of the killing power, but for the price they do it at. 160 points (Weave + MSS) is literally a steal for everything he does, and is at least cheaper than the CCB (I personally use both in a competitive list).

You also underestimate the Ghost Ark as a scoring unit; you don't need a bunch of Warriors and then trying to use the repair rule. If you have an Overlord anywhere, 205 points gets you what is essentially a AV13 vehicle that strips on average 4 Hull Points a turn that also happens to be Objective Secured.

Wrong on the Deathmarks, simply because Night Scythes are an implied purchase. I've done the Veil squad before, and quite frankly you might as well just spend the additional 70 points for an awesome weapon that's also hard to shoot down.

Flayed Ones are NOT the best squad to throw a Destroyer Lord in because they hamper his mobility (He's got a Jump Pack remember?), have durability issues (two wounds with a 3++ is REALLY good), and have less combat ability overall. 220-230 points for a Wraith squad (so 1-2 Whip Coils in a full squad) allows you to strike first in combat with S6 (ID T3 dudes) rending attacks, not including the bonus off HoW the additional attack for charging. Sure you could get mileage out of an Orb on the Destroyer Lord when with Flayed Ones, but that's about it. That's not a matter of being an experienced player, that's just common sense.

You're so off about the Annibarge it's ridiculous. They're good at ANY game size because they're 90 points. You get 12 super Autocannon shots on a durable body for just 270 points. That's so low that you can spend other points elsewhere. Giving it a "C" at higher levels is simply irrational.

Being able to fire over 36" isn't a good argument for the Doomsday Ark. That alone doesn't give it a higher rating. You have to entirely focus on building around them whereas similar vehicles, like the Vindicator, have more splashability WHILE being cheaper.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree with a lot of this. Except for Nemesor, as he's a pretty cool guy.

I feel as if you feel attacked or something along those lines. I'm glad you've found success with those units, but I haven't. Skoffs asked for some experienced thoughts / opinions so I gave my two bits.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How would a Foot Overlord get an A+ compared to the CCB version getting a B? There's less mobility AND durability on that end, not to mention the additional killing power the CCB brings. There's no exploitation on rules or anything, simply put.

I've been playing Necrons since they were just a CA list in a random White Dwarf and have stuck with them from 3rd all the way till now. My tendencies lean toward the Necron Army working together as a well oiled machine, and as such all of the HQ's (and RC's), are viewed first with what they bring to an existing unit. and not the other way around. For this reason the Overlord stays at an A+, because in this 'form' he remains the most flexible for virtually whatever element you choose to focus on in the Necron Codex.

The CCB just doesn't have it. He also doesn't do anything for the army, that Wraiths/Scarabs will do better for cheaper. He's too many points for his 'Killing Power' and once in combat he becomes significantly easier to kill. Outside of combat he's too easy to deal with if he's not flat out ignored. There have been plenty of discussions on the rules surrounding what is considered and exploit or not. You can find those on the relevant threads w/o bringing it here, or PM me if you feel you must. I do think that Necron players do stretch rules that apply to the CCB which is part of their popularity, but I also feel that this is the minority of Necron Players that do this, despite their popularity. If it we're so 'simply put' then there wouldn't have been any debate on it at all, so it remains as it is. Especially, since we're on the shortlist for a new Dex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Destroyer Lords also get such a high ranking not only because of the killing power, but for the price they do it at. 160 points (Weave + MSS) is literally a steal for everything he does, and is at least cheaper than the CCB (I personally use both in a competitive list).

As above, it's what they do for the other units in the codex. He doesn't have any 'Killing Power' that isn't even matched by at least one other unit in every single codex out there. He can't survive on his own, and while it's popular to put him with Wraiths, but even they don't have the staying power to support him for very long. Glad you've had success with them, but I'd rather spend the points on something more effective. I AM rebuilding mine (having given my earlier one to a Necron Player just starting out), but he won't see table time until the new Dex anyways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You also underestimate the Ghost Ark as a scoring unit; you don't need a bunch of Warriors and then trying to use the repair rule. If you have an Overlord anywhere, 205 points gets you what is essentially a AV13 vehicle that strips on average 4 Hull Points a turn that also happens to be Objective Secured.

I'll admit that my experience with GA's is probably the most limited out of all the units since the 2 I have are the most recent additions to my Necron Force and have only seen a handful of games. I feel more comfortable with them than I do with AB's, and it didn't take me long to see how great they are, and how vulnerable they are as well. 4 HP's are nice and 'Jink' makes it pretty survivable. It's still however Open-topped, so anything that manages to score a Penetrating hit on it usually makes those 4HP's seem like a joke. It's size makes it fairly easy to assault where the QS is useless if it's still up. The ability to repair lost Necrons outside of it really needs to be put to use. No you don't need to have a unit outside, but the unit inside isn't going to benefit from it as much. So yes, I leave it as an 'S' with Warrior based armies, because players who favor that strategy will be able to get the most out of everything that it has to offer. It remains at a 'B' because something that I've found fun and fairly effective is to load a unit of Lanceteks in on T1. With just 2 Lanceteks, that gives you a pretty good 'Tank' equivalent that Necrons want. We get a 'Twin' main gun with 4 HPs that can Jink. Rapid Firing Small arms Sponsons that have permission to shoot at different targets and can do something to any AV in the game. While not great, all of this for under 200 pts is something that most armies would kill for. Only reason I don't do it, is that Flamers can now get at the Crypteks inside.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wrong on the Deathmarks, simply because Night Scythes are an implied purchase. I've done the Veil squad before, and quite frankly you might as well just spend the additional 70 points for an awesome weapon that's also hard to shoot down.

No they're not. I've seen DM's fielded outside of NS more than in. I'm also aware of how DnD squad is popular, and I gave it a go, but I've never been satisfied with them as they don't make their points back before dying. If anything, they cause such a threat to draw an irrational amount of firepower for a turn, but that's the extent of it. With how resilient Necrons are, we're better off killing things before they kill us instead of the 'trading queens' tactic.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Flayed Ones are NOT the best squad to throw a Destroyer Lord in because they hamper his mobility (He's got a Jump Pack remember?), have durability issues (two wounds with a 3++ is REALLY good), and have less combat ability overall. 220-230 points for a Wraith squad (so 1-2 Whip Coils in a full squad) allows you to strike first in combat with S6 (ID T3 dudes) rending attacks, not including the bonus off HoW the additional attack for charging. Sure you could get mileage out of an Orb on the Destroyer Lord when with Flayed Ones, but that's about it. That's not a matter of being an experienced player, that's just common sense.

You're still looking at what the FO's are doing for the DLord? And no, the only reason isn't for the Orb. Other than maybe Warriors, no other unit in the entire codex will benefit as much from 'Preferred Enemy' as FO's. THAT's why they're the best place for him. Out of the 2 ways to even get an Orb into the unit, the DLord is the better option because they won't remove their ability to Deep Strike, or his mobility will allow him to join the unit on Turn 1 if they choose to infiltrate.

For the rest of it to be true, you'd have to be operating under the assumption that Necrons are slack in CC, they're not, they're just slow. This is something most Necron players buy into, and it's something that most opponents perceive as weakness which wins me more games than lost. You again insist that 2W with a 3i save is good, but I see it all the time in other armies and they don't hold up. True that they're not T6, but the DLord will not survive long on his own.

As for his mobility, here is my experience. I ran him often when the current codex came out, and I did what most players do now. Wraiths and a DLord. Then editions changed, then Whip Coils got nerfed, then Wraiths got FAQ'd to strike at I1 when assaulting through cover. This really makes Whip Coils not worth the points on the turn you charge since you're paying all those points to now strike at the same time as the 1-3 models you actually make base contact with on the turn you charge. They only got worse when Casualty removal got changed to nearest model, it now became easier to get around and shoot the models with the Whip Coils an/or get around the DLord in the unit to kill the Wraiths with small arms fire. Reducing the effectiveness of the unit altogether. In the end, it usually ended up being just the DLord and 1-2 Wraiths. Not enough to impact or kill any thing decent, and challenges hurt more because it forced attacks onto the Wraiths.

So I started looking at what else his 'Mobility' was good for. He's REALLY useful hopping between Warrior units giving them Preferred Enemy to the blobs of Warriors and adding in the punch to whatever the strongest threat to the Necron line was. The other thing that happened as a result of this was that Wraiths got shot less, and I also noticed that Wraiths still did work w/o the DLord being in there. I didn't use them as aggressively as with the DLord in there, but they were much more effective dealing with units that I couldn't finish off with shooting before they got to my line, than head on at the biggest threat in the enemy army. This worked out better for me and my playstyle, and not saying that it's better, but that I've had more successes than losses than running the Wraithstar.

Then I started playing Zahndrekh, and Flayed Ones. Zahndrekh just makes them even better. They're going to DS and come in on your opponents turn which means they can charge on your turn. Yes, Im AWARE that they're going to get shot to hell, but its something your opponent can't ignore. If they're going to charge, Zahndrekh will grant them 'Furious Charge'. 80 S5 Attacks is not something any army can ignore. Yes, I know that some will die to shooting and others will go down before they swing. Like Warriors they're tougher than players on both side of the table give them credit for. Add in the DLord with the Orb, and Preferred Enemy everything, and I've had impressive results with them, even when whittled down to 10-12 man units before they charge.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're so off about the Annibarge it's ridiculous. They're good at ANY game size because they're 90 points. You get 12 super Autocannon shots on a durable body for just 270 points. That's so low that you can spend other points elsewhere. Giving it a "C" at higher levels is simply irrational.

Glad you've had luck with them, and it seems to match the general feelings on them. I stand by what I said based on my experience with them. @ the 500 pt mark they're just unbelievably good. Look at any low points list and you'll see the comment '.. but you won't make very many friends' fully supports this, and rightly so, since dealing with AV13 at this low points is difficult for most armies. As the points go higher, you start to see a mix of roles on the opposite side of the table, so they become less scary. Once you're into the 1800 pt range, they're treated just like any other tank, with your opponent dealing with them like any other tank for a points level of it's game.

For me, I've NEVER had a game where they've done anything remotely impressive. I've had far too many games where I wish I'd taken something else that actually did something. Don't get me wrong they're a deal at 90 pts, but what they actually do has left me underwhelmed. In games where I don't run them, I've never had a moment where I wished I'd had them. My Necrons are shelved at the moment, mainly because I'm having way too much fun with my Orks. Most of my lists still have them on there, because I've been encouraged by fellow Necron players to keep giving them a try, so they sit there for P/U games. And I'll admit that I'm still not the most experienced with them. I'm not sure if I'm shooting the right targets, or supposed to be using them as a support to the infantry or what. Each game I try something different, but just not seeing it. Right now, I just feel like I'm playing with a Handicap to make it fair for my opponents.

As they are, for 90 pts, I'll agree that every Necron player should have one on virtually every list. 2 should be taken at 1000 pts, but this is just a rough number because under that, I'll agree that they're too good, and the game does need to be fun for my opponent. At 3, which seems to be quite popular for quite a few peeps, there are better places to spend the points for the cost of 2nd and 3rd of them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Being able to fire over 36" isn't a good argument for the Doomsday Ark. That alone doesn't give it a higher rating. You have to entirely focus on building around them whereas similar vehicles, like the Vindicator, have more splashability WHILE being cheaper.

Out of all the HS choices, I'll agree that this one should be the least used at this time. If you're a footslogging Cron army, and yes there are quite a few of them out there, having that range is enough to move it up over Doomscythes and put it on par with Monoliths. Hammer and Anvil Missions are the bane of of Necrons. Most events don't have them, whether this is because of the practicality of the 'Line of Tables' setup common at events, or that a majority of the community still doesn't like this setup is irrelevant. We don't have many options available to us to close this gap and no one likes being shot at for 3 turns. Most newer Necron players won't even look at the Heavy Support section, since it has the least to offer when compared to the options available in the other sections. Hopefully they'll have an idea of what to buy when they get to this point, or have just magenetized their Nightscythes to try out the Doomscythe. But fair enough.

 jasper76 wrote:
Ummmm....did the 7th Edition Necron Codex come out???

This is an old thread.
Once the new Dex drops, a new thread can be made (NEW Necron codex report card)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:
Not gonna lie - I got excited and thought this meant that there was going to be a seventh edition codex soon....oh well haha soon enough. As long as wraiths keep rocking I'll be happy.

... I take it you're not up to speed on current rumors.
Long story short: new codex due January. Expect nerfs.

 skoffs wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:
Not gonna lie - I got excited and thought this meant that there was going to be a seventh edition codex soon....oh well haha soon enough. As long as wraiths keep rocking I'll be happy.

... I take it you're not up to speed on current rumors.
Long story short: new codex due January. Expect nerfs.

Don't worry about it.

I've seen a lot of pessimism about this in rumor threads, sure, but that's all it is. Pessimism. The codex is already pretty solidly balanced if you play a grab bag of units instead of tournament-spamming the best two or three units... And GW simply don't care about the competitive scene who does that, as they've proven repeatedly.

There'll be a small handful of random nerds and buffs as usual, sure, but expect the ones with a clear pattern to be for promoting a few of the units that don't sell as well.

changemod wrote:I might proxy my Tomb Stalker as a Triarch Stalker at some point to try out the gimmick. They're both Stalkers after all, basically simmilarish proportions when based.

But anyhow the Skyshield for Invulnerable Saves reminds me of something: The Tesseract Ark. Mine's a converted Ghost Ark with only two sets of ribs, a prow in the top slot and Annie Barge guns for the sidearms.

Heavy Skimmer, AV 12 with Quantum Shields, 4 hp, 5++ invulnerable. Costs as much as a Land Raider, but when you shoot three plasma blasts 48 inches with no getting hot along with two other fire modes and two tesla cannons for backup, totally worth it.

I'd give it a solid A. Long range heavy offence with point defences and lasting durability. 1 in 3 chance of detonating very violently on a Weapon Destroyed though: The main gun contains a trapped singularity from a black hole and breaching that containment ain't good.

I really want to try a Tesseract Ark. I want to actually buy it because I loooove the model, and any kitbash I do wouldn't be nearly as good. It seems like it would be very strong, but the price is a little off putting.

Just wanna chime in on this discussion a bit:

 Akar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How would a Foot Overlord get an A+ compared to the CCB version getting a B? There's less mobility AND durability on that end, not to mention the additional killing power the CCB brings. There's no exploitation on rules or anything, simply put.

I've been playing Necrons since they were just a CA list in a random White Dwarf and have stuck with them from 3rd all the way till now. My tendencies lean toward the Necron Army working together as a well oiled machine, and as such all of the HQ's (and RC's), are viewed first with what they bring to an existing unit. and not the other way around. For this reason the Overlord stays at an A+, because in this 'form' he remains the most flexible for virtually whatever element you choose to focus on in the Necron Codex.

The CCB just doesn't have it. He also doesn't do anything for the army, that Wraiths/Scarabs will do better for cheaper. He's too many points for his 'Killing Power' and once in combat he becomes significantly easier to kill. Outside of combat he's too easy to deal with if he's not flat out ignored. There have been plenty of discussions on the rules surrounding what is considered and exploit or not. You can find those on the relevant threads w/o bringing it here, or PM me if you feel you must. I do think that Necron players do stretch rules that apply to the CCB which is part of their popularity, but I also feel that this is the minority of Necron Players that do this, despite their popularity. If it we're so 'simply put' then there wouldn't have been any debate on it at all, so it remains as it is. Especially, since we're on the shortlist for a new Dex.

I agree with Akar here. The CCB Lord just hasn't wowed me at all. Ok yes, it never dies to shooting unless they focus every gun they have on it. That's nice. But... what else does it do? It doesn't shoot that well, a moderate gun with 2 shots isn't worth all those points. Maybe if you went Gauss underslung with a Staff of Light and make it a shooting platform, but even then it's kinda iffy.

In Assault, what "additional killing power" does the Barge bring? D6 Hammer of Wrath attacks and Sweep Attacks? Sure, hitting Invisible units is nice, and occasionally you'll kill a couple units with those S6 AP- attacks, but it's not as much killing power as you'd expect for an 80 point upgrade. There's almost nothing you want to charge - he'll get tarpitted by blobs, anything with Meltabombs or Powerfists will just kill the vehicle, MCs will just kill the vehicle, heck, even Tau can take EMP bombs, etc. The only thing you actually want to Assault are small squad sizes that don't have any vehicle killing power in Close Combat. So...he's a ~225+ points Devestator squad killer. That's nothing special.

I mean sure, MSS is good, but it only works ~50% of the time on most things you want it to work on, and now it sucks because of the base contact rule for challenges changing.

The only thing that the CCB does is make the Overlord near impossible to kill to shooting and gives him a lot of mobility. I personally haven't felt like he's truly contributed to winning any games for me. Maybe it makes it harder for them to get Slay the Warlord, I guess.

 Akar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Destroyer Lords also get such a high ranking not only because of the killing power, but for the price they do it at. 160 points (Weave + MSS) is literally a steal for everything he does, and is at least cheaper than the CCB (I personally use both in a competitive list).

As above, it's what they do for the other units in the codex. He doesn't have any 'Killing Power' that isn't even matched by at least one other unit in every single codex out there. He can't survive on his own, and while it's popular to put him with Wraiths, but even they don't have the staying power to support him for very long. Glad you've had success with them, but I'd rather spend the points on something more effective. I AM rebuilding mine (having given my earlier one to a Necron Player just starting out), but he won't see table time until the new Dex anyways.

Well, obviously if you don't put him in squads he works with he doesn't do anything. That's... a given. Slayer's right, the Destroyer Lord is a fantastic tool in our arsenal. With Wraiths, you give the squad a 2+ save to tank on, MSS, and a Warscythe, which increases their utility and killing power by an absurd amount. And he gives them Preferred Enemy on their 3 Rending attacks. That's good. He does similarly well with Scarabs, though not as effective at killing.

And of course, putting him with Deathmarks is nearly broken. They auto wound a Marked target on 2+. Preferred enemy lets them reroll 1s. Give them a Despairtek and now you have a S8 AP1 template that autowounds on 2s, rerolling. That is insane. And of course, anyone who charges them after their Deep Strike has to deal with MSS and a Warscythe.

 Akar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wrong on the Deathmarks, simply because Night Scythes are an implied purchase. I've done the Veil squad before, and quite frankly you might as well just spend the additional 70 points for an awesome weapon that's also hard to shoot down.

No they're not. I've seen DM's fielded outside of NS more than in. I'm also aware of how DnD squad is popular, and I gave it a go, but I've never been satisfied with them as they don't make their points back before dying. If anything, they cause such a threat to draw an irrational amount of firepower for a turn, but that's the extent of it. With how resilient Necrons are, we're better off killing things before they kill us instead of the 'trading queens' tactic.

Personal experience doesn't invalidate the strength of Night Scythes with DnD squads. Both are coming in from reserves, and it's much better to be able to guarantee where they'll land rather than having to be at the mercy of the Scatter Demon. You only need to lose a single DnD squad to a mishap before you realize how nice it would be to spend 70 points for guaranteed landing and also a very powerful flyer.

You're not supposed to make their points back, for the most part. The point of a DnD squad is to get in, mark something important, and kill it in one round of shooting. See that HQ? AP1 Flamer template wounding on 2s. See that Centurion Squad? AP1 Flamer template wounding on 2s. See those Hive Guard that will turn our vehicles into smoking heaps? You know where this is going. A min squad ia 125 points + Night Scythe. The Scythe will survive and shoot, and 125 points for the ability to basically straight remove a non-vehicle threat from the board is really, really good. And if they survive, they still have really good shooting, even against non-marked targets!

 Akar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Flayed Ones are NOT the best squad to throw a Destroyer Lord in because they hamper his mobility (He's got a Jump Pack remember?), have durability issues (two wounds with a 3++ is REALLY good), and have less combat ability overall. 220-230 points for a Wraith squad (so 1-2 Whip Coils in a full squad) allows you to strike first in combat with S6 (ID T3 dudes) rending attacks, not including the bonus off HoW the additional attack for charging. Sure you could get mileage out of an Orb on the Destroyer Lord when with Flayed Ones, but that's about it. That's not a matter of being an experienced player, that's just common sense.

Then I started playing Zahndrekh, and Flayed Ones. Zahndrekh just makes them even better. They're going to DS and come in on your opponents turn which means they can charge on your turn. Yes, Im AWARE that they're going to get shot to hell, but its something your opponent can't ignore. If they're going to charge, Zahndrekh will grant them 'Furious Charge'. 80 S5 Attacks is not something any army can ignore. Yes, I know that some will die to shooting and others will go down before they swing. Like Warriors they're tougher than players on both side of the table give them credit for. Add in the DLord with the Orb, and Preferred Enemy everything, and I've had impressive results with them, even when whittled down to 10-12 man units before they charge.

I mean, that's an interesting idea, and sure you might get some people off guard that way, but it's not great. If you're Deep Striking a big blob, the chances of mishapping are extremely high. And while it's a good volume of attacks, sure, the number is the only thing that they have going for them. T4 4+ means they're going to lose A LOT, maybe the full squad, to shooting. If you Deep Strike them in front of the unit you want to charge, they may just get counter charged themselves, where they'll die horribly from having no Defensive Grenades or Overwatch. No ignoring terrain or Assault Grenades means they suck even further at charging units in cover. I2 means they're going to take lots of casualties before they even get to go. AP- and no Rending means anything with a Space Marine save or better is going to ignore most of those voluminous attacks. And I2 again means that they're always going to be swept, basically 100% of the time they lose combat.

Other than having 2 more attacks than a Warrior and being able to Deep Strike/Infiltrate, they basically have no redeeming qualities.

 Akar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're so off about the Annibarge it's ridiculous. They're good at ANY game size because they're 90 points. You get 12 super Autocannon shots on a durable body for just 270 points. That's so low that you can spend other points elsewhere. Giving it a "C" at higher levels is simply irrational.

Glad you've had luck with them, and it seems to match the general feelings on them. I stand by what I said based on my experience with them. @ the 500 pt mark they're just unbelievably good. Look at any low points list and you'll see the comment '.. but you won't make very many friends' fully supports this, and rightly so, since dealing with AV13 at this low points is difficult for most armies. As the points go higher, you start to see a mix of roles on the opposite side of the table, so they become less scary. Once you're into the 1800 pt range, they're treated just like any other tank, with your opponent dealing with them like any other tank for a points level of it's game.

For me, I've NEVER had a game where they've done anything remotely impressive. I've had far too many games where I wish I'd taken something else that actually did something. Don't get me wrong they're a deal at 90 pts, but what they actually do has left me underwhelmed. In games where I don't run them, I've never had a moment where I wished I'd had them. My Necrons are shelved at the moment, mainly because I'm having way too much fun with my Orks. Most of my lists still have them on there, because I've been encouraged by fellow Necron players to keep giving them a try, so they sit there for P/U games. And I'll admit that I'm still not the most experienced with them. I'm not sure if I'm shooting the right targets, or supposed to be using them as a support to the infantry or what. Each game I try something different, but just not seeing it. Right now, I just feel like I'm playing with a Handicap to make it fair for my opponents.

As they are, for 90 pts, I'll agree that every Necron player should have one on virtually every list. 2 should be taken at 1000 pts, but this is just a rough number because under that, I'll agree that they're too good, and the game does need to be fun for my opponent. At 3, which seems to be quite popular for quite a few peeps, there are better places to spend the points for the cost of 2nd and 3rd of them.

I really find it hard to believe that you've played many games if you have issues finding use for an AV13 vehicle that shoots 4 times and hits on an average of 5+ times with S7. Does it suck not having AP? Sure, but the number of shots you put out for 90 points is just disgusting. Point it at MCs or AV11/12 vehicles, watch them melt. Don't fire it into blobs, that's wasting it. You're basically paying the price of a few Warriors for an amazing shooting attack that wounds anything that's not an MC on 2s and can hit more times than it shoots. That's insane. It doesn't have the pure, 1 shot 1 kill power of a Doomsday Ark or a Doom Scythe, but it's much, much cheaper and more durable, since it can Jink at basically all times and still retains stupid amount of firepower thanks to Tesla on 6s.

Requizen wrote:
Personal experience doesn't invalidate the strength of Night Scythes with DnD squads. Both are coming in from reserves, and it's much better to be able to guarantee where they'll land rather than having to be at the mercy of the Scatter Demon. You only need to lose a single DnD squad to a mishap before you realize how nice it would be to spend 70 points for guaranteed landing and also a very powerful flyer.

You're not supposed to make their points back, for the most part. The point of a DnD squad is to get in, mark something important, and kill it in one round of shooting. See that HQ? AP1 Flamer template wounding on 2s. See that Centurion Squad? AP1 Flamer template wounding on 2s. See those Hive Guard that will turn our vehicles into smoking heaps? You know where this is going. A min squad ia 125 points + Night Scythe. The Scythe will survive and shoot, and 125 points for the ability to basically straight remove a non-vehicle threat from the board is really, really good. And if they survive, they still have really good shooting, even against non-marked targets!

Run this unit because it does this thing, So I run the unit and it doesn't do that thing, EVER. How does my Experience with them not invalidate them when they never do what I've been told they should do? They've never done enough damage to make my opponent feel like he lost anything he couldn't do without. Never even done enough damage to justify it's cost. I'm fine with it if people want to run it, but every person that I brought it against (that took the time to look at the list pre-game or ask if I was running it), pretty much made sure it didn't do what it was intended to do. It's still a great tactic, but not one that is so good to deserve the rating it was given.

If they aren't supposed to make their points back, then why bother bringing them?

 Akar wrote:
Then I started playing Zahndrekh, and Flayed Ones. Zahndrekh just makes them even better. They're going to DS and come in on your opponents turn which means they can charge on your turn. Yes, Im AWARE that they're going to get shot to hell, but its something your opponent can't ignore. If they're going to charge, Zahndrekh will grant them 'Furious Charge'. 80 S5 Attacks is not something any army can ignore. Yes, I know that some will die to shooting and others will go down before they swing. Like Warriors they're tougher than players on both side of the table give them credit for. Add in the DLord with the Orb, and Preferred Enemy everything, and I've had impressive results with them, even when whittled down to 10-12 man units before they charge.

Requizen wrote:
I mean, that's an interesting idea, and sure you might get some people off guard that way, but it's not great. If you're Deep Striking a big blob, the chances of mishapping are extremely high. And while it's a good volume of attacks, sure, the number is the only thing that they have going for them. T4 4+ means they're going to lose A LOT, maybe the full squad, to shooting. If you Deep Strike them in front of the unit you want to charge, they may just get counter charged themselves, where they'll die horribly from having no Defensive Grenades or Overwatch. No ignoring terrain or Assault Grenades means they suck even further at charging units in cover. I2 means they're going to take lots of casualties before they even get to go. AP- and no Rending means anything with a Space Marine save or better is going to ignore most of those voluminous attacks. And I2 again means that they're always going to be swept, basically 100% of the time they lose combat.

Other than having 2 more attacks than a Warrior and being able to Deep Strike/Infiltrate, they basically have no redeeming qualities.

With Charge ranges being what they are in this and the last edition, you're not going to be putting them where they will mishap often. Yes they MIGHT get counter charged, but it's going to be in a place of YOUR choosing and it's going to force your opponent to choose between them and the rest of your army. This is no different than Wraiths/Scarabs. Wraiths/Scarabs don't have Defensive Grenades or Assault Grenades either and all the units are I2, so failing to see what the point is here. Rending is more than offset by the sheer number of attacks you'll have to return. Again, the assumption that in once in Base contact, they're just not going to do anything back, auto-lose combat, and automatically get swept. The DLord can tank for the FO's, and the enemy will have just as easy a time getting around where the 'Tank' is to get to the meat of the unit, so that's a wash as well.

Requizen wrote:
I really find it hard to believe that you've played many games if you have issues finding use for an AV13 vehicle that shoots 4 times and hits on an average of 5+ times with S7. Does it suck not having AP? Sure, but the number of shots you put out for 90 points is just disgusting. Point it at MCs or AV11/12 vehicles, watch them melt. Don't fire it into blobs, that's wasting it. You're basically paying the price of a few Warriors for an amazing shooting attack that wounds anything that's not an MC on 2s and can hit more times than it shoots. That's insane. It doesn't have the pure, 1 shot 1 kill power of a Doomsday Ark or a Doom Scythe, but it's much, much cheaper and more durable, since it can Jink at basically all times and still retains stupid amount of firepower thanks to Tesla on 6s.

I've done all this. In ALL of these situations, 180 pts worth of Warriors has out performed the 2 AB's everytime. No, I've still not mastered them. Never said I have, but that I'm having trouble seeing that they're good. I AGREE COMPLETELY that for the amount of firepower you get for 90pts is good. I disagree with the damage output that they're doing. Against Rhinos or Wave Serpents for example. The ABs would only get 1 or 2 HP's if I'm lucky. This makes it easier for the Warriors to finish it off, but gotta raise my eyebrows when the Warriors get 3-4 HPs from Glancing hits. They're still on my lists and I'm trying to give them a fair go. Having AP- means that while they'll cause wounds, but the return after saves is greatly diminished. They're not good against MC's or Single Targets because of this. They don't pump out the number of shots to be shot at blobs, and even when I did (because there were no other Targets after being eliminated by the Warriors/Immortals), even Gaunts/Cultists made a save or 2 against them.

What they DO have going for them is their AA power, and the off chance they lightning will jump to a unit. No one relies on the Lightning jumping to another unit, but it's almost always a bonus. As far as anti-air, there is so much more on the ground that needs to be dealt with. The flyers that need to be worried about are the Assault Transports (Stormravens and the SW one), but they don't excel doing much other than being a minor irritation before those flyers deliver their payload. Flying MC's used to be an issue, but now you don't want to shoot them in the off chance they'll get grounded and be able to charge. If a Necron player is concerned about AA, then these are your best choice. I'm actually fine with just using Warriors to down flyers or putting some threat on them.

 Akar wrote:
Run this unit because it does this thing, So I run the unit and it doesn't do that thing, EVER. How does my Experience with them not invalidate them when they never do what I've been told they should do? They've never done enough damage to make my opponent feel like he lost anything he couldn't do without. Never even done enough damage to justify it's cost. I'm fine with it if people want to run it, but every person that I brought it against (that took the time to look at the list pre-game or ask if I was running it), pretty much made sure it didn't do what it was intended to do. It's still a great tactic, but not one that is so good to deserve the rating it was given.

If they aren't supposed to make their points back, then why bother bringing them?

Maybe you aren't targeting the right units then. You can't target blobs with it, you want to target single models or small units that have powerful special rules, weaponry we are scared of, or force multipliers. A good example is a Venomthrope. Venomthrope broods are T4 with 2 wounds and give Shrouded to nearby Nids. The Flame template ignores his cover save and doubles out his Toughness, killing him instantly. Killing a single Venomthrope is only killing 45 points, but you take Shrouded away his army. Same for Malanthropes, though you can't double them out. One Malanthrope is only 85 points, but you're killing a Synapse Creature, taking away Shrouded, and removing their Preferred Enemy(Necrons). That's entirely worth the squad in and of itself.

Killing a Warlord is worth Slay the Warlord and possibly D3 victory points for the card. That's worth a 115 point suicide squad + Night Scythe. It's not just a number in - number out game.

 Akar wrote:

With Charge ranges being what they are in this and the last edition, you're not going to be putting them where they will mishap often. Yes they MIGHT get counter charged, but it's going to be in a place of YOUR choosing and it's going to force your opponent to choose between them and the rest of your army. This is no different than Wraiths/Scarabs. Wraiths/Scarabs don't have Defensive Grenades or Assault Grenades either and all the units are I2, so failing to see what the point is here. Rending is more than offset by the sheer number of attacks you'll have to return. Again, the assumption that in once in Base contact, they're just not going to do anything back, auto-lose combat, and automatically get swept. The DLord can tank for the FO's, and the enemy will have just as easy a time getting around where the 'Tank' is to get to the meat of the unit, so that's a wash as well.

Flayed ones have 3 attacks. They're not fearless, can't ignore/remove armor, only have 1 wound each, and have little to no mobility.
Wraiths have 3 attacks and Rending, a 3++, can move around the field without having to rely on deep strike shenanigans, and can bring Whip Coils to make enemies I1, which is the only way we go first.
Scarabs have 4 Attacks and Entropic Strike. They're also Fearless and so can tarpit way more effectively.

I really hope you can tell the difference. I suppose they also have Reanimation Protocols - but that does nothing if you fall back from combat, which is a very realistic scenario.
Using a DLord's 2+ to "tank" can be done just as well (or better, since you don't have to deep strike) with both Wraiths and Scarabs. In fact, when you put him with Wraiths it's not so much that he's there to tank for the Wraiths, it's more that the Wraiths are there to give him a 3++ that he can't buy.

 Akar wrote:
I've done all this. In ALL of these situations, 180 pts worth of Warriors has out performed the 2 AB's everytime. No, I've still not mastered them. Never said I have, but that I'm having trouble seeing that they're good. I AGREE COMPLETELY that for the amount of firepower you get for 90pts is good. I disagree with the damage output that they're doing. Against Rhinos or Wave Serpents for example. The ABs would only get 1 or 2 HP's if I'm lucky. This makes it easier for the Warriors to finish it off, but gotta raise my eyebrows when the Warriors get 3-4 HPs from Glancing hits. They're still on my lists and I'm trying to give them a fair go. Having AP- means that while they'll cause wounds, but the return after saves is greatly diminished. They're not good against MC's or Single Targets because of this. They don't pump out the number of shots to be shot at blobs, and even when I did (because there were no other Targets after being eliminated by the Warriors/Immortals), even Gaunts/Cultists made a save or 2 against them.

What they DO have going for them is their AA power, and the off chance they lightning will jump to a unit. No one relies on the Lightning jumping to another unit, but it's almost always a bonus. As far as anti-air, there is so much more on the ground that needs to be dealt with. The flyers that need to be worried about are the Assault Transports (Stormravens and the SW one), but they don't excel doing much other than being a minor irritation before those flyers deliver their payload. Flying MC's used to be an issue, but now you don't want to shoot them in the off chance they'll get grounded and be able to charge. If a Necron player is concerned about AA, then these are your best choice. I'm actually fine with just using Warriors to down flyers or putting some threat on them.

Mathematically against a Rhino's front armor AV11:

Two Annihilation Barges(hitting on 3s, rerolling, 3 hits on 6s, glancing on 4s, penning on 5+)
Hit 11 times
1.8 glances, 3.6 pens
No saves = 5.4 hull points on average

14 Warriors (182 points)(hitting on 3s, Glancing on 6s)
Outside of Rapid Fire Range:
Hit 9.33 times
1.5 Glances

inside of Rapid Fire Range:
Hit 18.66 times
3.1 Glances


I'll skip the math, but against AV12, two Annihilation Barges are getting 1.8 glances and 1.8 pens, which is still more than rapid firing Warriors. Against MCs, assuming T6 for Tyranids, where Barges wound on 3s and Warriors wound on 6s, 2 barges are getting 7.33 wounds and Warriors are getting 1.5 wounds (3.1 in Rapid Fire range). There is no situation where Warriors statistically outclass a Barges in shooting, except maybe against T3 models with 5+ saves with no cover. So yeah, against Termagants and Hormagaunts, go nuts. Against AV13 in Rapid Fire range, they do more glances than an Annihilation Barge, and they can glance AV14 as well, so that's nice. But in the situations you talked about, the math tells a different story than you.

Not to metion that the Barge can jump and kill more things with Arc, also has a S6 Assault 2 Tesla gun underneath that I'm not even taking into account (which means more wounds/glances), and is much harder to kill by pretty much anything out there.

Okay. CCBs are great for scoring. Becuase they are very hard to kill by shooting and can move 30" in a turn, including a 12' move that allows you 3 str7 ap 1 armourbane attacks. If your warlord isn't dead at the end of the game and is able to move to contest/score almost any objective on the board on turns 5-7 that is HUGE. Most people try to run them as an assault unit and get tarpitted / die. Thats not the point. Kill wave serpents and sicarans. Get into your opponent's backfield forcing them to do things. Control the board. That's what they are for.

Deathmarks and Despairteks (I run my unit with 2 teks) in a night scythe are amazing. If you aren't finding them great, then you are playing some strange meta or else not plaing them right.

A squad of centurions? The most overused marine unit at the moment (because they are so good) can easily be dismantled with this unit.

A Dreadknight will usually die to this unit in a single round of combat. So will a Wraithknight. A Mark O'Mander and his drones. Farseer on his silly jetbike with his daft wee mantle of the laughing god.

Even if you are forcing your opponent to counter (like putting a huge bubble wrap around his grav cents), then that is huge too. He has reduced his mobility. He has given everything in your army an intervening model cover save, he (or she) has committed scoring units away form other objectives.

Flayed Ones are AWFUL. If you have found a great way of playing them, then well done. But being not fearless or tough, they suffer the same fate as warriors in combat: they lose, then they get swept. When you have had ten swept on the turn they charge by a single 2+ T5 model with a bunch of WS5 attacks (which is what will happen on average) you realise that this is a TERRIBLE tarpit unit. All you are doing by charging your opponent with a unit of FOs is giving them a free consolidation move towards the rest of your army.

Make em fearless GW. Give em Shrouded. Make em troops. Give us a chance to play em.

By the way, all the big tournaments here in the uk run Hammer and Anvil deployment, so be prepared for it.

Kutlakh can make Flayed Ones Fearless, I guess.

He can also make Immortals or other shooty units relentless and fearless of course. And can't deep strike with them.

But hey, there's options for making Flayed Ones semi-viableish if you want them for the fluff at least.

 Akar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree with a lot of this. Except for Nemesor, as he's a pretty cool guy.

I feel as if you feel attacked or something along those lines. I'm glad you've found success with those units, but I haven't. Skoffs asked for some experienced thoughts / opinions so I gave my two bits.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How would a Foot Overlord get an A+ compared to the CCB version getting a B? There's less mobility AND durability on that end, not to mention the additional killing power the CCB brings. There's no exploitation on rules or anything, simply put.

I've been playing Necrons since they were just a CA list in a random White Dwarf and have stuck with them from 3rd all the way till now. My tendencies lean toward the Necron Army working together as a well oiled machine, and as such all of the HQ's (and RC's), are viewed first with what they bring to an existing unit. and not the other way around. For this reason the Overlord stays at an A+, because in this 'form' he remains the most flexible for virtually whatever element you choose to focus on in the Necron Codex.

The CCB just doesn't have it. He also doesn't do anything for the army, that Wraiths/Scarabs will do better for cheaper. He's too many points for his 'Killing Power' and once in combat he becomes significantly easier to kill. Outside of combat he's too easy to deal with if he's not flat out ignored. There have been plenty of discussions on the rules surrounding what is considered and exploit or not. You can find those on the relevant threads w/o bringing it here, or PM me if you feel you must. I do think that Necron players do stretch rules that apply to the CCB which is part of their popularity, but I also feel that this is the minority of Necron Players that do this, despite their popularity. If it we're so 'simply put' then there wouldn't have been any debate on it at all, so it remains as it is. Especially, since we're on the shortlist for a new Dex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Destroyer Lords also get such a high ranking not only because of the killing power, but for the price they do it at. 160 points (Weave + MSS) is literally a steal for everything he does, and is at least cheaper than the CCB (I personally use both in a competitive list).

As above, it's what they do for the other units in the codex. He doesn't have any 'Killing Power' that isn't even matched by at least one other unit in every single codex out there. He can't survive on his own, and while it's popular to put him with Wraiths, but even they don't have the staying power to support him for very long. Glad you've had success with them, but I'd rather spend the points on something more effective. I AM rebuilding mine (having given my earlier one to a Necron Player just starting out), but he won't see table time until the new Dex anyways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You also underestimate the Ghost Ark as a scoring unit; you don't need a bunch of Warriors and then trying to use the repair rule. If you have an Overlord anywhere, 205 points gets you what is essentially a AV13 vehicle that strips on average 4 Hull Points a turn that also happens to be Objective Secured.

I'll admit that my experience with GA's is probably the most limited out of all the units since the 2 I have are the most recent additions to my Necron Force and have only seen a handful of games. I feel more comfortable with them than I do with AB's, and it didn't take me long to see how great they are, and how vulnerable they are as well. 4 HP's are nice and 'Jink' makes it pretty survivable. It's still however Open-topped, so anything that manages to score a Penetrating hit on it usually makes those 4HP's seem like a joke. It's size makes it fairly easy to assault where the QS is useless if it's still up. The ability to repair lost Necrons outside of it really needs to be put to use. No you don't need to have a unit outside, but the unit inside isn't going to benefit from it as much. So yes, I leave it as an 'S' with Warrior based armies, because players who favor that strategy will be able to get the most out of everything that it has to offer. It remains at a 'B' because something that I've found fun and fairly effective is to load a unit of Lanceteks in on T1. With just 2 Lanceteks, that gives you a pretty good 'Tank' equivalent that Necrons want. We get a 'Twin' main gun with 4 HPs that can Jink. Rapid Firing Small arms Sponsons that have permission to shoot at different targets and can do something to any AV in the game. While not great, all of this for under 200 pts is something that most armies would kill for. Only reason I don't do it, is that Flamers can now get at the Crypteks inside.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wrong on the Deathmarks, simply because Night Scythes are an implied purchase. I've done the Veil squad before, and quite frankly you might as well just spend the additional 70 points for an awesome weapon that's also hard to shoot down.

No they're not. I've seen DM's fielded outside of NS more than in. I'm also aware of how DnD squad is popular, and I gave it a go, but I've never been satisfied with them as they don't make their points back before dying. If anything, they cause such a threat to draw an irrational amount of firepower for a turn, but that's the extent of it. With how resilient Necrons are, we're better off killing things before they kill us instead of the 'trading queens' tactic.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Flayed Ones are NOT the best squad to throw a Destroyer Lord in because they hamper his mobility (He's got a Jump Pack remember?), have durability issues (two wounds with a 3++ is REALLY good), and have less combat ability overall. 220-230 points for a Wraith squad (so 1-2 Whip Coils in a full squad) allows you to strike first in combat with S6 (ID T3 dudes) rending attacks, not including the bonus off HoW the additional attack for charging. Sure you could get mileage out of an Orb on the Destroyer Lord when with Flayed Ones, but that's about it. That's not a matter of being an experienced player, that's just common sense.

You're still looking at what the FO's are doing for the DLord? And no, the only reason isn't for the Orb. Other than maybe Warriors, no other unit in the entire codex will benefit as much from 'Preferred Enemy' as FO's. THAT's why they're the best place for him. Out of the 2 ways to even get an Orb into the unit, the DLord is the better option because they won't remove their ability to Deep Strike, or his mobility will allow him to join the unit on Turn 1 if they choose to infiltrate.

For the rest of it to be true, you'd have to be operating under the assumption that Necrons are slack in CC, they're not, they're just slow. This is something most Necron players buy into, and it's something that most opponents perceive as weakness which wins me more games than lost. You again insist that 2W with a 3i save is good, but I see it all the time in other armies and they don't hold up. True that they're not T6, but the DLord will not survive long on his own.

As for his mobility, here is my experience. I ran him often when the current codex came out, and I did what most players do now. Wraiths and a DLord. Then editions changed, then Whip Coils got nerfed, then Wraiths got FAQ'd to strike at I1 when assaulting through cover. This really makes Whip Coils not worth the points on the turn you charge since you're paying all those points to now strike at the same time as the 1-3 models you actually make base contact with on the turn you charge. They only got worse when Casualty removal got changed to nearest model, it now became easier to get around and shoot the models with the Whip Coils an/or get around the DLord in the unit to kill the Wraiths with small arms fire. Reducing the effectiveness of the unit altogether. In the end, it usually ended up being just the DLord and 1-2 Wraiths. Not enough to impact or kill any thing decent, and challenges hurt more because it forced attacks onto the Wraiths.

So I started looking at what else his 'Mobility' was good for. He's REALLY useful hopping between Warrior units giving them Preferred Enemy to the blobs of Warriors and adding in the punch to whatever the strongest threat to the Necron line was. The other thing that happened as a result of this was that Wraiths got shot less, and I also noticed that Wraiths still did work w/o the DLord being in there. I didn't use them as aggressively as with the DLord in there, but they were much more effective dealing with units that I couldn't finish off with shooting before they got to my line, than head on at the biggest threat in the enemy army. This worked out better for me and my playstyle, and not saying that it's better, but that I've had more successes than losses than running the Wraithstar.

Then I started playing Zahndrekh, and Flayed Ones. Zahndrekh just makes them even better. They're going to DS and come in on your opponents turn which means they can charge on your turn. Yes, Im AWARE that they're going to get shot to hell, but its something your opponent can't ignore. If they're going to charge, Zahndrekh will grant them 'Furious Charge'. 80 S5 Attacks is not something any army can ignore. Yes, I know that some will die to shooting and others will go down before they swing. Like Warriors they're tougher than players on both side of the table give them credit for. Add in the DLord with the Orb, and Preferred Enemy everything, and I've had impressive results with them, even when whittled down to 10-12 man units before they charge.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're so off about the Annibarge it's ridiculous. They're good at ANY game size because they're 90 points. You get 12 super Autocannon shots on a durable body for just 270 points. That's so low that you can spend other points elsewhere. Giving it a "C" at higher levels is simply irrational.

Glad you've had luck with them, and it seems to match the general feelings on them. I stand by what I said based on my experience with them. @ the 500 pt mark they're just unbelievably good. Look at any low points list and you'll see the comment '.. but you won't make very many friends' fully supports this, and rightly so, since dealing with AV13 at this low points is difficult for most armies. As the points go higher, you start to see a mix of roles on the opposite side of the table, so they become less scary. Once you're into the 1800 pt range, they're treated just like any other tank, with your opponent dealing with them like any other tank for a points level of it's game.

For me, I've NEVER had a game where they've done anything remotely impressive. I've had far too many games where I wish I'd taken something else that actually did something. Don't get me wrong they're a deal at 90 pts, but what they actually do has left me underwhelmed. In games where I don't run them, I've never had a moment where I wished I'd had them. My Necrons are shelved at the moment, mainly because I'm having way too much fun with my Orks. Most of my lists still have them on there, because I've been encouraged by fellow Necron players to keep giving them a try, so they sit there for P/U games. And I'll admit that I'm still not the most experienced with them. I'm not sure if I'm shooting the right targets, or supposed to be using them as a support to the infantry or what. Each game I try something different, but just not seeing it. Right now, I just feel like I'm playing with a Handicap to make it fair for my opponents.

As they are, for 90 pts, I'll agree that every Necron player should have one on virtually every list. 2 should be taken at 1000 pts, but this is just a rough number because under that, I'll agree that they're too good, and the game does need to be fun for my opponent. At 3, which seems to be quite popular for quite a few peeps, there are better places to spend the points for the cost of 2nd and 3rd of them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Being able to fire over 36" isn't a good argument for the Doomsday Ark. That alone doesn't give it a higher rating. You have to entirely focus on building around them whereas similar vehicles, like the Vindicator, have more splashability WHILE being cheaper.

Out of all the HS choices, I'll agree that this one should be the least used at this time. If you're a footslogging Cron army, and yes there are quite a few of them out there, having that range is enough to move it up over Doomscythes and put it on par with Monoliths. Hammer and Anvil Missions are the bane of of Necrons. Most events don't have them, whether this is because of the practicality of the 'Line of Tables' setup common at events, or that a majority of the community still doesn't like this setup is irrelevant. We don't have many options available to us to close this gap and no one likes being shot at for 3 turns. Most newer Necron players won't even look at the Heavy Support section, since it has the least to offer when compared to the options available in the other sections. Hopefully they'll have an idea of what to buy when they get to this point, or have just magenetized their Nightscythes to try out the Doomscythe. But fair enough.

1. You didn't attack me. You really just don't play in an environment where things are pushed to the limit, let alone a tournament. I have.
2. I don't care how long someone has played the army if there are going to be statements like this coming from them. An Overlord on foot simply CANNOT be more flexible because he would be more vulnerable to shooting, and any bodyguard that has any killing power is going to be many times more expensive than the CCB, WITHOUT the mobility to boot.
For killing power, YES Sweeps and the additional HoW are awesome. That's only 80 points compared to a Footlord with a retinue of any kind, and being able to easily reach MSU and cowering vehicles is just plain good. You would think it would be tarpitted and it is therefore bad, yet the Wraithknight and Riptide still see play, and those are in the same boat of low attacks. It's about mobility and picking targets. Don't charge a freaking squad of thirty Gaunts; charge the Warriors babysitting them (though sweeping the Gaunts isn't a bad idea possibly). You also overestimate the killing power of Power Fists (have to hit, then you have to get through the Phase Shifter). Melta Bombs are easily just challenged out (Melta Bombs are unwieldy. PRETTY sure one of those 4 attacks are gonna kill the dude before anything happens).
You also forget that the CCB and Wraiths/Scarabs are not competing against each other in the same slot.
3. Someone else covered why you're wrong on the Destroyer Lord. No need for me to go over this since I feel they did a good job already. Still have to reiterate that 160 points is almost unfair for what he does though.
4. Akar covered the Death and Despair + Nightscythe thing already for me, but this one I'm going to expand on. Night Scythe is already an awesome vehicle, so why not just spend for a guaranteed landing?
There are things called Suicide Squads for a reason. Yeah Chaos Terminators are tough (MoN or MoT), but they make better suicide squads because of the potential points earned compared to points spent. The minimum on a Termicide group is 112 points. This potentially can give you back almost everything you spent depending the target (Company Command Squad, LasPred, Vindicator, etc., are things that are ran that are more points, yet can be dead in one round of shooting), and, as stated by Akar, minimum on the squad is 125 without the Scythe, which is something we would like to purchase anyway. Sure, fluff-wise, Necrons are resilient, and in game we are resilient too. That's a crap reason to write off a great tactic though. That 125 points is gonna hurt TWC, Centurionstars, Devastators, anything in an open-topped Transport, and the like.
The irrational fire is another good reason WHY to bring them. You either make your points back or close to it, and they either have to kill it or let it shoot another unit/claim an objective. Not Objective Secured, but not everything needs that.
5. Once again, Akar tackled this mostly, but I'm going to throw my thoughts on it.
Wraiths have the ability to Deep Strike too, and have a smaller footprint to do it. The Destroyer Lord will also gain nothing from Infiltrate. Nemesor could grant Furious Charge to Wraiths for S7 Rending attacks. After that initial Deep Strike hypothetical situation, the Wraiths have the ability to actually move on to another target quickly. Seriously, there's a lot wrong with this statement on Flayed Ones.
6. Literally anything not AV14 is a good target for the Barge to shoot at. You simply need to prioritize what to shoot at better. Simple as that. There's also the matter of it not sucking because it decided to Jink, unlike the Doomsday Ark or Monolith (which can't, anyway).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You really just don't play in an environment where things are pushed to the limit, let alone a tournament. I have.

GT's / Games Days, Feast of Blades, 2x Adepticons and RTT's in 3 Different countries don't count as an environment where things 'are pushed to the limit', I'd really like to know what you're playing? I'll be honest that I quit the Tourney Scene, playing here and there, after my 2nd AC for reasons that aren't relevant to this thread.

He asked for experience, I have a wealth of it, and yes it happens to be different from the majority of the community here. The lists that are often run here are well designed lists, but they're lists that I don't run anymore because their limits had been pushed, tested, and defeated.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
An Overlord on foot simply CANNOT be more flexible...

The DLord was dying every game. Started with Wraiths, then I found out that Wraiths are awesome without him, so wasted points putting him there. Did the Scarab thing for a while, but then they took away their movement so I just stopped. Jumped him between Warrior squads for the boost to shooting, but Triarch Stalkers worked better (Either is good, but It really just shifted which unit my opponent shot at based on where the DLord was). FO's did really well with him.

Overlord on foot only dies when my opponent commits an INSANE amount of opposition against whatever unit he is with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You also forget that the CCB and Wraiths/Scarabs are not competing against each other in the same slot.

Don't see why this matters, since Im not the only one here who thinks the CCB is on of the most inefficient uses for points in the Dex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Someone else covered why you're wrong on the Destroyer Lord. No need for me to go over this since I feel they did a good job already. Still have to reiterate that 160 points is almost unfair for what he does though.

It's not about right or wrong, he's slightly better than mediocre. Maybe I've misled people unintentionally. I don't hate the DLord, I have no problem putting him on the table, but have gotten to the point where I'd rather field an Overlord. Access to a Royal Court alone makes him better. Now that Necrons have viable lists that aren't as combo dependant, he has moved up. It's not 'unfair' for what you get because you have to give up so much more. Unlike a majority of players, and threads like this, I don't recommend that newer players start with him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wraiths have the ability to Deep Strike too, and have a smaller footprint to do it. The Destroyer Lord will also gain nothing from Infiltrate. Nemesor could grant Furious Charge to Wraiths for S7 Rending attacks. After that initial Deep Strike hypothetical situation, the Wraiths have the ability to actually move on to another target quickly. Seriously, there's a lot wrong with this statement on Flayed Ones.

My Wraith tactics have evolved to the point where they work best as a defensive/counter unit. I don't play them aggressively anymore, and use them to address issues as they come down. I don't run them out anymore, they die too fast. Flayed Ones Deep Striking or Infiltrating allowed me to counter deploy them better than the Wraiths and that more than often made up for their movement.

No the DLord doesn't benefit from Infiltrate (since he would remove it from the unit), but HIS mobility allowed him to join the FO's if I needed him too. I'm aware that Wraiths can move on to other units, but they have to kill or survive whatever they're fighting in the first place. After a few games, they stopped doing that.

Also, I'm not advocating that FO's are the greatest thing ever. They definitely take some getting used to and are very rewarding when they work. They don't deserve a high rating. They do deserve higher than what was given here. I saw a tragedy not too long ago, in that a Necron Player in Aus Top 8'd with a Necron army, and he had Flayed Ones. All anyone could say was 'Why, when he could've had Wraiths?', when they should've said 'Maybe I need too look at them again?'. It's a perspective, not a right or wrong. New Players: Avoid them for now. Experienced Players: Learn to use them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
6. Literally anything not AV14 is a good target for the Barge to shoot at. You simply need to prioritize what to shoot at better. Simple as that.

NOT disagreeing with you here. I'm having difficulty finding out which Targets, other than Flyers, that this thing would be good at? It's mediocre against anything with Armor, It's mediocre against blobs, It's mediocre against medium vehicles. I've never had as much trouble with the ABarges as I have with the other units. I've only had my GA's on the table for a handful of games and I feel better with them than I do the AB's. The AB's are still on the list.

I appreciate Akar's input. A lot of the score behind a unit depends on the meta that unit is played in.

For example, a bargeLord is a lot more valuable in a uber-competitive meta than in a more casual one. The bargeLord is a great unit if you are playing 50% of the time vs Wave Serpent spam but a lot less so if your usual matchup is MSU .

My only disagrement with the OP is the A rank he gave to the forgeworld super heavy pylon, while it used to be awesome for its points, the fact that it is shooting snap shots at any ground based superheavy, due to the skyfire rule, really weakens it as a whole. That is unless it got a newer rules update somewhere.

txrg1208 wrote:
My only disagrement with the OP is the A rank he gave to the forgeworld super heavy pylon, while it used to be awesome for its points, the fact that it is shooting snap shots at any ground based superheavy, due to the skyfire rule, really weakens it as a whole. That is unless it got a newer rules update somewhere.

Yeah, that's infuriating, I converted one right before the edition change and never got to use it properly.

I've been considering deep striking it on to a Skyfire Nexus if I ever manage to talk someone into an Escalation game, but nobody's been biting.

col_impact wrote:
I appreciate Akar's input. A lot of the score behind a unit depends on the meta that unit is played in.

For example, a bargeLord is a lot more valuable in a uber-competitive meta than in a more casual one. The bargeLord is a great unit if you are playing 50% of the time vs Wave Serpent spam but a lot less so if your usual matchup is MSU .

MSU is something the Bargelord excels in killing. Sweep attacks, nice HoW, and then 4 S7 attacks where half will likely hit, topping it off with MSS? Not sure how you came to THAT conclusion, but as far as I'm concerned the CCB excels at killing both things you mentioned.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I appreciate Akar's input. A lot of the score behind a unit depends on the meta that unit is played in.

For example, a bargeLord is a lot more valuable in a uber-competitive meta than in a more casual one. The bargeLord is a great unit if you are playing 50% of the time vs Wave Serpent spam but a lot less so if your usual matchup is MSU .

MSU is something the Bargelord excels in killing. Sweep attacks, nice HoW, and then 4 S7 attacks where half will likely hit, topping it off with MSS? Not sure how you came to THAT conclusion, but as far as I'm concerned the CCB excels at killing both things you mentioned.

All of the bargeLord's power lies in going INTO close combat. Once it is in CC is when its very lackluster. And its not like you can totally avoid eventually being tied up in CC in the MSU matchup. It takes a long time to munch through a MEQ msu with only 1.5 S7 and 1 MSS hit on average when stuck in combat. The MSU player can feed an existing CC with more MSU. The bargeLord has a chance at a "hit and run" only if its actually killed and reanimated, so often its best just to exactly tarpit the bargeLord but not kill.

Have you actually played the match-up? I have. People frequently complain about the bargeLord's damage output. They aren't talking about when it goes one on one with a Wraithknight and MSS can shut off the WK half the turns. They are talking about getting stuck in CC with a bunch of bodies.

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat it, but this is an old thread that some new user necro-posted on to reactivate, so a few of the things are going to be out of date. I'd update the thing, but with the new codex coming in about a month's time, I figured it would be wiser to just wait and do it then, once we know what we're dealing with.