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A techpriest will have good armor, good-ish toughess and some pretty good melee power. My friend has a Heavy Weapon -> Sentry guy who miss only on 95+ while firing full auto, the enemy can't really dodge his shot thanks to some ability I forgot. He's using a multilaser and basically either do 5 times 2d10+10 Pen 2 (he's got an ability to bump that, as well, I think) on the same target, or split fire to kill up to 5 targets everyturn. He rarely runs out of ammo because of the multilaser capacity.

Personally I had a Krieg Stormtrooper (suprise suprise) who managed to be as tough as an Ork nob while still being to snipe everything he could see (and with about 70 awareness, there was no hiding from him)

Probably not much of a match fpr a DW marine...

I completely understand, OP. I would also demand you start with a wheelbarrow for your massive testicles.

Now, you have one MASSIVE advantage. Your size (no pun intended). You can actually walk around without arousing any suspicion. You can also get ahold of some carapace armour and a melta, put some skill points in ballistic skill, and barbecue the oversized astronauts. Just remember to stay behind the big fellas.

I read through those books a little for similer reason. The only part I didnt like was each guardsman having a "buddy". Of course, the GM could negate you having to have one but that would 'weaken" your character cionsiderably. Maybe they would give you something extra to make up for it?

A few that came to mind when I was considering it were the Commissar. Why, well, just for coolness sake (of course, we were playing Rogue Trader instead of deathwatch). The idea of the gung ho smarty pants stick in the mud getting upset every time his boots got dirty...
Maybe the ogryn (they are in the guard book... could also be fun.
Of course, I was always looking for the role play aspects before the power play aspects. Something I would find out about how the GM approaches the game before making up my mind.

Oh, and OP, ask if you can play an Alpha Legion infiltrator and plant meltabombs in the dumb spehss mureeens backpacks! Hydra dominatus!

 ChazSexington wrote:
Oh, and OP, ask if you can play an Alpha Legion infiltrator and plant meltabombs in the dumb spehss mureeens backpacks! Hydra dominatus!

Someone doesn't like Astartes.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Oh, and OP, ask if you can play an Alpha Legion infiltrator and plant meltabombs in the dumb spehss mureeens backpacks! Hydra dominatus!

Someone doesn't like Astartes.

Hey, just brainstorming!

Or just say that you've been sent by the Inquisition to find an Alpha Legion operative who has infiltrated their group (it's actually you) and watch chaos (no pun intended) and paranoia ensue. See exactly how long those SMs can stay awake for. For science!

I can name more Sue-y IG, Lynata. Straken (Strong as a DK), Harker (biceps-crushed a ravener), Marbo...

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can name more Sue-y IG. Straken, Harker, Marbo...

I can name 1000 and they all live on Macragge

It's like saying assault cannons are goddamn mary sue guns who should get on lasguns' level, otherwise they are stupid.

OPness is just their job!

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's like saying assault cannons are goddamn mary sue guns who should get on lasguns' level, otherwise they are stupid.

OPness is just their job!

Hahah, true, but at least Imperial Guard don't need power armour, genetic enhancement, and penis pills, unlike the spehsss mureens! Standard issue wet cardboard armour, flashlight and wheelbarrow!

BlaxicanX wrote:though, considering that you by admission don't read much BL, one is left to wonder why you feel so confident in criticizing it

Because there's an actual reason that I don't read much BL. It's not like I "boycotted" it from day 1 - I just don't know why I should keep buying that stuff if I don't like it, hoping for a miracle with every purchase.

Perhaps you'd say that Black Library's portrayal of Marines has changed over the past years, but considering the things I pick up on dakka's background forum (where, surprise, about half the threads on page 1 are about Marines) that does not seem to be the case.

(sidenote: I will keep recommending to buy the short story anthologies, however, as well as the graphic novels - from my experience, for some reason they offer a lot more variety than the standard "bolter porn". and the mere existence of this term already speaks volumes on the topic)

Really, it's not like I joined the franchise and immediately, randomly picked out Space Marines as a faction to bash. My very first minis were SM. It's just that I've read things, and said things have informed and partially changed my opinion on certain subjects. Hell, I still don't dislike the idea of Marines (I played Deathwatch, I played the Space Marine videogame, watched the Ultramarines movie, ...) - just how it is executed in the majority of products, which to me feels like a waste of potential with negative repercussions both for them as well as the rest of the IP. And even worse than the execution is how a segment of the fans immediately jump on to it, propagating that stuff as if it were some sort of gospel.

But in the end it is merely a matter of taste/preferences. Some people love OTT, others like it more gritty. It's as simple as that!

ChazSexington wrote:Now, you have one MASSIVE advantage. Your size (no pun intended). You can actually walk around without arousing any suspicion.

I would doubt that this advantage would come up a lot in a Deathwatch game, though. The game's standard mission parameters could easily be adjusted by a clever GM, but even if you do that, you'd still end up with what is effectively two independent parties all playing their own game, and that tends to suck. And once the Marines accompany this inconspicuous Guardsman, their mere presence would negate this potential advantage.

This is a problem plagueing Black Crusade campaigns as well, which is why a lot of GMs recommend against mixed parties - even in that game, which is supposedly designed to support them. What do you think would happen when mixing Deathwatch, where Marines are even stronger, with Only War, where Humans are even weaker?

Not saying it's impossible, of course. But I have serious doubts that it'd be fun, unless you enjoy playing a mook who feels like the 5th wheel and the weakest link in the chain.

EVIL INC wrote:I read through those books a little for similer reason. The only part I didnt like was each guardsman having a "buddy".

Really? I liked that idea - it was a clever way to "inflate" the party size and bring it up to platoon strength, something I'd almost consider a basic requirement for a Guard campaign. Plus, these NPC Comrades serve to (a) reinforce the idea of a gritty, brutal war (by dying easily and essentially catching bullets meant for you and (b) function as a replacement character once your character gets killed .. which can happen very fast in OW (my record is 3 minutes after the drop, Starship Troopers-style).

EVIL INC wrote:A few that came to mind when I was considering it were the Commissar. [...]

Not your track of thought, but your suggestion triggered another idea I could suggest here. Playing a sergeant who has their own small Horde of NPC Guardsmen! This would solve the issue of firepower, and increase survivability (by providing a number of meatshields, as opposed to the Marines' inherent resistance).
Just a thought, of course - I'm not certain how playable/entertaining this would turn out to be. Probably depends on the group, but I like to think it might have potential.
Might require some houseruling as well, tho ... (I still have some homebrewed squad rules if anyone wants to help playtesting them )

Ashiraya wrote:I can name more Sue-y IG, Lynata. Straken (Strong as a DK), Harker (biceps-crushed a ravener), Marbo...

Funny, I actually don't consider those very "Sue-y" - though this assessment is based merely on there quite simply not being a lot of stories attached to them. They are "one offs", legends of the Guard known solely because of what you read about them.
There's also quite a lot of named Space Marines I do not consider Sue-y for the very same reason. It's the stigma attached to the collective army, based on a certain regularity of over-the-top accounts. For every incident like Harker killing a 'nid with his bare hands, or Straken strangling a CSM Lord, there's thousands upon thousands of nameless Guardsmen dying an inglorious death in another. From what I have seen, the Space Marines simply lack this balanced portrayal.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can name more Sue-y IG. Straken, Harker, Marbo...

I can name 1000 and they all live on Macragge

Not really, Ultramarines have been fine, you want actual mary sue you go to the Space Wolves whose plot armor so hard it's covered in wolf pelts.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Not really, Ultramarines have been fine, you want actual mary sue you go to the Space Wolves whose plot armor so hard it's covered in wolf pelts.

^ This right here.

An under-strength garrison repelling millions of Guardsmen invading Fenris in a war that lasted for five years, and their magical fleet of Battle Barges forcing the entire Segmentum Pacificus Navy into retreat. And that is just one incident that springs to mind.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can name more Sue-y IG. Straken, Harker, Marbo...

I can name 1000 and they all live on Macragge

Not really, Ultramarines have been fine, you want actual mary sue you go to the Space Wolves whose plot armor so hard it's covered in wolf pelts.

I think Calgar would've done that alone. He did pretty much tell his fellow UMs when an Ork horde was attacking "I've got this!" and proceeded to beat the living daylights out of them for a day on his own. And let's not even start on the Tyranid stuff...

Either way, this thread isn't about Ultram-, I mean, Mary Sues.

 Lynata wrote:

This is a problem plagueing Black Crusade campaigns as well, which is why a lot of GMs recommend against mixed parties - even in that game, which is supposedly designed to support them. What do you think would happen when mixing Deathwatch, where Marines are even stronger, with Only War, where Humans are even weaker?

Not saying it's impossible, of course. But I have serious doubts that it'd be fun, unless you enjoy playing a mook who feels like the 5th wheel and the weakest link in the chain.

I agree there are problems, but we're trying to figure out how to make it work, if possible. It's not like Deathwatch Marines wouldn't elicit some suspicion if they were trying to infiltrate/locate a local gang, which is one of the guardsman's strengths. Being able to actually gather intel is something the Deathwatch Marines can't do to the same extend without arousing suspicion.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can name more Sue-y IG, Lynata. Straken (Strong as a DK), Harker (biceps-crushed a ravener), Marbo...

This is why we can't have nice things. As soon as the Guard does something nice its Suey.

. It's not like Deathwatch Marines wouldn't elicit some suspicion if they were trying to infiltrate/locate a local gang, which is one of the guardsman's strengths. Being able to actually gather intel is something the Deathwatch Marines can't do to the same extend without arousing suspicion.

Though, to be fair, that is entirely *not* what the Death Watch is for. The Death Watch are Xeno hunters. They are the heavy-hitters the Ordo Xenos calls upon when, after years of their mundane-mortal servants doing the painstaking investigations and research required to uncover the plot to trade Xenos artifacts and cross-breed genegineered specimens with the humans of an Agri-World, all under the direction of a traitorous Rogue Trader... *that* is when the Death Watch is called in to bring the hammer down on the Xenos.

All the stuff leading up to that point is a job for the Inquisition (and the RPG Dark Heresy). DW Marines are not supposed to be infiltrating human gangs. They have absolutely no need to. If they need to learn something about this gang's activities, they would be better off kicking down the front door, killing everyone there and then eating their brains. The omophagae will give them the data they need.

I thinks we've gotten a lil off track here...
The thing I didnt like about the buddy system was it seemed to detract from the role playing aspect (that might actually fit in with a bunch of marines around though). I'f I'm playing a guardsman and hafta divide my "attention" between two different characters. This because I'd have a hard time just playing it as a meatshield without it's own personality. The disposable nature of it would also be an issue for me always having to bring in a new one. Imagine the ridicule of the marines "Yeah, Ol Bob has to change his underwear. Bring in Joe#8".. Dunnoe, likely its just me.

I like the idea of each player building a "character tree" so they always have spare characters on a par with the rest of the group and maintain a variety of characters they can draw from for different missions. Does your Gm go in for this? I used to allow players to keep four and one died, a replacement was made. This could allow you to have a few different options and just phase out the ones you end up not liking.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can name more Sue-y IG, Lynata. Straken (Strong as a DK), Harker (biceps-crushed a ravener), Marbo...

This is why we can't have nice things. As soon as the Guard does something nice its Suey.

As soon as Space Marines do anything except die it's Suey too.

You reap what you sow, young man.

I've never said that.

ChazSexington wrote:I agree there are problems, but we're trying to figure out how to make it work, if possible. It's not like Deathwatch Marines wouldn't elicit some suspicion if they were trying to infiltrate/locate a local gang, which is one of the guardsman's strengths. Being able to actually gather intel is something the Deathwatch Marines can't do to the same extend without arousing suspicion.

See, that's the problem discussed in the thread I linked.

If you send that Guardsman in to RP recon/infiltration ... what exactly are your Marine players doing in the meantime?
And once the Marines move in, how exactly will the Guardsman participate?

One solution for this dilemma that seemed fairly popular on the DH forums was that players basically ran two different interconnected campaigns. Everyone would have a normal Human Acolyte in a Dark Heresy game and they'd investigate and uncover stuff - and if they found something they'd whip out their Deathwatch characters and pwn the enemies of mankind as Space Marines.
I have a feeling this compromise of sorts might not really apply here, though, as you'd essentially force different characters on a group that is already fully absorbed in a DW-exclusive campaign, not to mention that you would still have to play a Marine from time to time.

Ashiraya wrote:As soon as Space Marines do anything except die it's Suey too.

Just that this "anything" is not an exception, it dominates their portrayal. Plus, there is a difference between one victory/defeat and another, depending how exactly they occur.

I love the stories about the last battle of Captain Tycho or the Celestial Lions because there the Marines are shown as badass and heroic whilst maintaining mortality instead of coming across like a squad of superheroes saving an entire world with 10 guys. To me, as soon as a character comes across as infallible and/or semi-invincible, they absolutely lose their appeal to me. So that "walking demigods of war" line that some Marine fans like to spout? Instant turn-off. Just not the image I have in my vision of 40k. I like it gritty. More immersion, less fairytales.

And again, this isn't something that came about on day 1. It is the relative constancy of this theme which some people love as Epic, but others dislike as Suey. In fact, one could even make the argument that it has gotten "worse" (depending on your preferences) over the past decade. Mostly, I think, due to the weight of background distribution shifting away from GW studio sources and into third party stuff (how many people are accustomed to White Dwarf fluff as opposed to novels and video games?), but to a lesser degree also a latent shift* in GW's portrayal (more knightly, more heroic, more epic, culminating in dudes like Draigo) as well.

*: not sure if this is due to "new blood" among the studio writers, or if they are reacting to preferences in the fanbase, or a bit of both

tl;dr: when do Space Marines actually die? Examples for this seem to have been getting ever scarcer with every edition - especially since White Dwarf, which I perceived as the most "balanced" source of heroic exploits and dramatic defeats simply because they offered a lot of either, doesn't really do a lot of fluff anymore.

 Lynata wrote:
I love the stories about the last battle of Captain Tycho or the Celestial Lions because there the Marines are shown as badass and heroic whilst maintaining mortality instead of coming across like a squad of superheroes saving an entire world with 10 guys. To me, as soon as a character comes across as infallible and/or semi-invincible, they absolutely lose their appeal to me. So that "walking demigods of war" line that some Marine fans like to spout? Instant turn-off. Just not the image I have in my vision of 40k. I like it gritty. More immersion, less fairytales.
.

It is an unfair argument to make. You assert that immersion and very mighty Marines are mutually exclusive. I question this.

To me, it's fine if they can laugh off lasfire, tank melta & plasma, be 9 feet tall and have T90-caliber rocket assault rifles. 40K doesn't become less grimdark or the Imperium in less of a pinch because they have a million really strong guys, because these guys can't be everywhere and can't hold any real territory alone. The fact that SM can be so strong and the IG so many and the Imperium is still pushed back only makes stuff more grimderp.

You are free to hold your own opinion, but by dismissing the opposition's opinion as 'fairytales', you imply your own opinions are objectively better.

Again, I question this.

The studio fluff positions Power Armor as "effective at stopping up to 85% of attacks from weapons found on the battlefield", or words to that effect.

That does not make SM immune to lasfire.

 Lynata wrote:
[tl;dr: when do Space Marines actually die?

Great might =/= superman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The studio fluff positions Power Armor as "effective at stopping up to 85% of attacks from weapons found on the battlefield", or words to that effect.

That does not make SM immune to lasfire.

And I have plenty of fluff showing the contrary.

Clearly, the 85% number is propaganda.

In the guard roleplay I always load up as a demolition scout.

Camelioline, bullpup lascarbines, jump pack landing chute thing, scouty camo stuff, explosives.

Camelioline is like a -30 to hit if you stay still. Get your stealth up and it gets better as you can simply lay your explosives somewhere (and hopefully live) and simply take cover in the firefight. Load up on grenades.

I have never played with Space Marines in a RolePlay because nobody where I am likes Space Marines either (I am truly thankful for this). But I found myself to be very survivable like that.

The blow up crap and hide guy. For mushy enemies use your highly efficient Lascarbine thats small and light.

Or go storm trooper. My friend does well as storm trooper sometimes.

Other than that, the roleplay doesnt sound very fun if you arent into Space Marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
[tl;dr: when do Space Marines actually die?

Great might =/= superman.

0.o

"Faster than a speeding bullet! More powerful than a locomotive! Able to leap tall buildings In a Single Bound! This amazing stranger from the planet Krypton! The man of steel —(gong ring)— Superman!"

It would seem it does, in fact, make you Superman.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The studio fluff positions Power Armor as "effective at stopping up to 85% of attacks from weapons found on the battlefield", or words to that effect.

That does not make SM immune to lasfire.

And I have plenty of fluff showing the contrary.

Clearly, the 85% number is propaganda.

You're right. Considering it's from their own Codex, the actual chance might be closer to 50%.

Or gee, the SM feat are the propaganda.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
[tl;dr: when do Space Marines actually die?

Great might =/= superman.

0.o

"Faster than a speeding bullet! More powerful than a locomotive! Able to leap tall buildings In a Single Bound! This amazing stranger from the planet Krypton! The man of steel —(gong ring)— Superman!"

It would seem it does, in fact, make you Superman.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The studio fluff positions Power Armor as "effective at stopping up to 85% of attacks from weapons found on the battlefield", or words to that effect.

That does not make SM immune to lasfire.

And I have plenty of fluff showing the contrary.

Clearly, the 85% number is propaganda.

You're right. Considering it's from their own Codex, the actual chance might be closer to 50%.

Not at all. See, if their wargear is portrayed as worse, they seem more heroic for doing the feats they do!

Clearly, the number varies between 99,9999999999% (Las/auto small arms) and 0% (Volcano Cannons and above, as well as a fair few things below)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Or gee, the SM feat are the propaganda.

HERESY! *Blam*

The DW game, of course, posits that the Space Marines are the supermen that fluff often portrays them as. They are, as far as the game is concerned, nearly immune to lasfire (you have like a 1% chance of actually being injured by a standard lasgun) and most other common forms of weapons. They can, basically, withstand Tau plasma carbines and rifles for a significant period of time (while their bolters will tear a Fire Warrior up)... and this is assuming standard stats, not with upgrades/purchases to beef up their already-considerable Toughness.

The Marines in FFG's DW are most *definitely* "Movie Marines", where 5 guys with weapons that only pack 24 shots each somehow kill off a horde of thousands of slavering, fearless aliens.

As other have already said, if you're going to play a normal human in a DW campaign you need to be given a lot of starting XP, and maybe also the Unnatural Toughness (2) trait for free (or at least Power armour). I don't really think the Only war rules support Guardsmen that are very experienced so I would ask the GM to play something from Dark Heresy (an Inquisitor would be perfect...) or Rogue trader. Tech priest might work, but I think the Only war Tech priest is very limited, DH or RT should be better to get on par with Deathwatch marines. Another idea is to play a somewhat boosted guardsman (driver+Sentinel could be fun) but with a gakload of bonus Fate points (10 or so)

The Sergeant+Horde sound like a great idea if you could get the GM on board.

As for Space marines being portrayed as Mary sues, I don't quite get it. I've been reading a lot of Space marine fiction the last year and while a lot of it is really quite bad I wouldn't say they are portrayed as invincible. I'd say most of the stories follow the same template.
1. You get introduced to a squad of marines, one of them being the main character.
2. The squad get thrown into a situation with everything stacked against them.
3. Roughly half of them get wiped out before they even encounter the big bad.
4. The squad encounters the big bad and all of them but the main character are killed.
5. The main character kills the big bad and receives the accolades of his peers.

And if you complain that the main character has plot immunity, maybe you should go read something else, main characters dying in low-budget scifi just doesn't happen. At least not until they've fulfilled their "destiny".

From my point of view I think that there are too many marines that gets killed of in the stories (and a lot of them don't even get their geneseeds recovered). With the rate of attrition pictured in the stories I'm amazed there are any marines left at all...

An Ascended Character from DH (that would be Rank 9+) would probably be statted/geared appropriately to hang with the Death Watch, provided s/he didn't get stupid and try to match the Marine in combat.