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My calculations were wrong though, the WK get 3.57 on a charge+shooting, and 3.36 on a seneschal, with 1.83 in CC.

Not a big difference, but still.


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Now for scenarios...

Given 3 WK and 2 IK.

If 1IK gets to charge 1WK, it will deal 4.16HP that turn and have a 67% chance of instant killing the WK, losing 1.8HP in return.

If 1WK gets to charge 1IK, it will deal 3.57HP that turn, losing 2HP in return and taking a 67% chance to be instakilled.

When an IK dies, it has a 33% chance to have its attackers under the D portion of the blast because a hit was rolled, 60+% for a WK in close combat even with scatter.

You can't charge an IK with a single WK because he will obliterate you.

But if you charge that IK with two WK, it's almost guaranteed that one WK will be hit at D strength, and very likely that both will be.

On a roll of 6, that WK is gone. On a roll of not one, that WK loses 2HP.

In most cases, charging an IK with 2WK will - when you do kill it before it retaliates - make you lose 2HP on each WK and one third of the time you will lose one of them on top of that. Another third of the time one of them will be untouched.

And then sometimes it retaliates, killing a WK 2/3rds of the time, still exploding next turn in your face.

But that is a moot scenario. First of all only a pure Knight army will ever have more then one.

Your also not counting the fact that the WK is faster then the imperial knight and will always deliver at least 2 str 10 in to an unshielded part of it.

Makumba wrote:
But that is a moot scenario. First of all only a pure Knight army will ever have more then one.
Your also not counting the fact that the WK is faster then the imperial knight and will always deliver at least 2 str 10 in to an unshielded part of it.

1. Why would it never have more than one ?
2. It's not faster per se. Good luck making it unshielded every turn, I'll be watching.

Another Morgoth "eldar are crap just because I say so" thread. Tired of crapping on Wave Serpents eh?

But lets have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl8zkmaO-7c

Wraithknight, a substantially cheaper unit, whooped that Knights ass. Of course dice rolls can go either way, and the knight could win but in two scenarios the WK won and they didn't have to act out those alternate scenarios, Wraiths can hang back pinging away with AP2 shots until they get those explode results. The knight can't do the same, they can strip one wound off per turn.

The WK kills it. Figuratively and literally.

are you asking, IK vs WK?

Im an imperial player. with IK. I've played a list against Eldar and Wks and the Wraith knight destroyed my IK before I could charge.

IK does have a 4++ but thats a 50% chance of success off the start.

IK does have 2 STR8 hits but I believe that only hits the WK on 4s due to the Wks toughness.

also, being blast. I can't tell you how many times that stupid cannon misses. it did that day. both shots sailed far right.

I don't know elder very well but i remember the guy had me down to 2 HPs by the time i was in charge distance.

the WK can also jump around like crazy.

for the points. I think WK is a solid choice.

Also its worth bearing in mind the standard loadout is 375p vs 240p

So its doubly crazy to think in engagements you've got a good chance of the WK winning.

A fair points comparison is 2 IK vs 3 WK as I believe was pointed out earlier on. 3 WK can lay down a god awful amount of fire and I'd say good chance 2 of them can get a charge on a single knight with dual HoW attacks and then striking above initiative value of the knight.

Since i actually have real tabletop experience of knights vs wraithknights I'll tell you the truth.

WK's beat IK's on the table assuming the players are of equal skill.

This is what happens in a game:

WK shooting dings 2 to 4 HP off a IK. IK shooting takes 1 to 2 wounds off WK. WK charges and finish's off IK or IK charges and WK finish's it off (the initiative 5 is huge). Explosion might kill off WK (might).

Assuming the explosion does kill the WK, WK just won the fight since its cheaper.



I will admit IK's are better OVERALL units when faced with many armies (not tau though), but the WK beats it 1v1.

On paper, their shooting per model (not per point) is equivalent when shooting at each other.

However, in most cases, the 2 large blasts ordnance are far more versatile and useful.

Against WS spam I don't think I'd prioritize the WK, I'd prioritize number of targets under the large blast marker.

Having also some tabletop experience of that, I can attest to the IK's clear superiority in most cases, and its ability to pull ahead vs WK.

Here's a little summary of the data I got on this.


CC CC shooting shoot+charge CC per 100 points shooting per 100 points shoot+charge per 100 points WK vs IK 1,83 0,61 3,56 0,7625 0,254166667 1,483333333 WK vs IK:S 1,83 0,44 3,36 0,7625 0,183333333 1,4 IK vs WK 4,37 0,67 6,66 1,165333333 0,178666667 1,776 IK:S vs WK 5,83 0,83 8,6 1,554666667 0,221333333 2,293333333

That's just the raw power advantage.

On top of that, the IK can kill invisibles, ignores poison, instant death, immobilized, ... everything but explodes which it still treats as 1+1D3 HP in the worst case.

And its shooting is clearly better, 2 S8AP3 Ordnance large blasts will do a lot against just about any army.

An IK can kill two WK in close combat if it gets the drop on them.



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Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Another Morgoth "eldar are crap just because I say so" thread. Tired of crapping on Wave Serpents eh?

But lets have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl8zkmaO-7c

Wraithknight, a substantially cheaper unit, whooped that Knights ass. Of course dice rolls can go either way, and the knight could win but in two scenarios the WK won and they didn't have to act out those alternate scenarios, Wraiths can hang back pinging away with AP2 shots until they get those explode results. The knight can't do the same, they can strip one wound off per turn.

The WK kills it. Figuratively and literally.

Sure, in a match where both stay at range, there are no objectives and the WK gets a 4+ cover save, and neither of them have better targets, then the WK is better !

How are you calculating a 67% chance of instakilling? That sounds a bit high to me, a rough guess and I'm closer to 50% (assuming 2 stomps and 3 attacks with the D weapon).

But yeah, obviously the IK will out do a WK in CC... it has a CC str D weapon... it's basically designed to kill other big things in CC. It's also significantly more expensive.

3 WK vs 2 IK, I picture 2 to 3 shooting phases before the IK get in to CC range, so a good chance 1 IK is already dead and a WK is probably almost dead. Lets say the IK catches a WK in CC and kills it, the WK should do on average 2HP of damage (well 1.777, but you can't do 0.777 of a HP so I'm rounding up to 2).

You're left with 2 WK and 1 IK that's down to 4HP. At this point the WK can just keep shooting the IK or charge it, on the charge the WK will kill the IK before it gets to strike.

Then it just comes down to whether the destruction of the IK causes the 2 WK's to die as well. Or the WK just continue to move away from the IK shooting it until it's dead. Because there are 2 of them, I'm guessing the IK will be dead long before it catches both the WK's.

If the WK are unlucky and both IK's are still alive when they get to close combat range, a WK could charge the almost dead IK and kill it before it strikes and hope to get lucky with the catastrophic damage.

But regardless of what happens, it's all pretty irrelevant, outside of "what if" scenarios, you aren't going to see such a simplistic match-up in actual games anyway.


EDIT: Sorry, made an error in my calculation, after 3 rounds of shooting both IK are still probably alive but 1 is almost dead, so you'd have to suicide a WK to finish it off. The battle would probably be closer than what I initially guessed, but the numbers and movement advantage of the WK I still put it in favour of the WK depending on how many turns they can avoid combat.

S8 AP3 is useless against vehicles due to the lack of being able to explode it.

Morgoth you are constantly reaching and stretching to prove the Eldar codex bad with such hopelessly biased opinions, why?

But I mean at least you aren't spamming the Necron thread with how bad Waveserpents supposedly are so this is a marginal improvement.

Also - the wraithknight is marginally faster - or to be more exact, doesn't lose speed when forced to manouvre through terrain.

This is a bigger deal than you'd think once big-base stuff comes out to play.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Morgoth you are constantly reaching and stretching to prove the Eldar codex bad with such hopelessly biased opinions, why?

But I mean at least you aren't spamming the Necron thread with how bad Waveserpents supposedly are so this is a marginal improvement.

Well at least in this case it's a fair comparison, although is incessant trashing of the WK isn't helping his goodwill any.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Morgoth you are constantly reaching and stretching to prove the Eldar codex bad with such hopelessly biased opinions, why?

But I mean at least you aren't spamming the Necron thread with how bad Waveserpents supposedly are so this is a marginal improvement.

Well at least in this case it's a fair comparison, although is incessant trashing of the WK isn't helping his goodwill any.

What is really odd is that the idea that a 375p unit having somewhat marginally more utility compared to a 240p unit seems to shock him and he wants to crow it from on high.

The fact that the WK has a chance shows that really it is probably a bit to powerful.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Morgoth you are constantly reaching and stretching to prove the Eldar codex bad with such hopelessly biased opinions, why?

But I mean at least you aren't spamming the Necron thread with how bad Waveserpents supposedly are so this is a marginal improvement.

Well at least in this case it's a fair comparison, although is incessant trashing of the WK isn't helping his goodwill any.

What is really odd is that the idea that a 375p unit having somewhat marginally more utility compared to a 240p unit seems to shock him and he wants to crow it from on high.

The fact that the WK has a chance shows that really it is probably a bit to powerful.

I would disagree with that, just because it has a chance doesn't mean it's too powerful. AFAIK, wraithknights are supposed to be kind of like the GK dreadknights - they shoot and punch other large models. It helps if they're good at it, I imagine!

I will say though, this thread has been very weird. It does seem morgoth is trying to prove how crappy WKs are, which is especially odd after the wave serpent thread.

Of course an Imperial Knight is better. It has the broken mechanics of super-heavy walkers and destroyer weapons attached to it.

It's better than literally everything that doesn't have those rules.

Mumblez kinda agreed. Its just it seems a bit good to me but that is a personal opinion. I'd still run them and not feel bad about it particularly.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Of course an Imperial Knight is better. It has the broken mechanics of super-heavy walkers and destroyer weapons attached to it.

It's better than literally everything that doesn't have those rules.

Its only overpowered when you can take 2-3 of them. I've faced them enough times that 1 isn't particularly troubling. The Ion shield bothers me but the D Weapon is only in CC/stomp and on a 6 so its not a big deal at all. Ability to put 2-5 down on a board makes it just silly that is a balance issue not a unit issue.

*Sigh* Another morgoth "eldar are actually weak compared to the competition" thread. Trololol.

To my knowledge, there is nothing outside of ForgeWorld that can reliably drop an IK without breaking a sweat.

Fire dragons. There you go. Easy. (notice this unit is eldar btw).
Regarding more balanced units, sure, not many units can bring down an IK with ease. And that is the way it should be. At around the 400 point mark there really shouldn't be a simple way to kill them.

Is the IK better than a wraithknight? Yeah sure. It costs more than 50% more, what do you expect?

Is one more overpowered for its points cost than the other? Imo I would say no. Both are quite competitive for their points.

Of course nothing reliable about this example (and I've never had it happen lol) but the nightmare scenario for someone fielding an Imperial Knight is two las cannon shots that both pen and both explode causing maximum hull points.

Two Jokaero at 70p just blew up your imperial knight.

Trololololol.

You could also night scythe a lord +5 stormteks behind a knight and glance it to death. 20 haywire shots will kill just about any vehicle.

Hmm I never thought about running it like that. It would have to be an overlord?

Means giving up a CCB or a destroyer lord so probably not worth it. Probably overkill too. I'd assume that 99% of the time 2 stormteks and 5-10 Necrons are going to get it done. Perhaps not against an IK but you can't build just for them. Thoughts? Do you run this?

I'm new to Necrons so that is food for thought.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Is one more overpowered for its points cost than the other? Imo I would say no. Both are quite competitive for their points.

Which is true in terms of raw power, since most things that die from an IK would also die from a WK (strength D is still absurd when hitting another IK, WK or Land Raider though).

That's until you start considering all of the advantages the SHW gets over an MC, like immune to everything but explodes, for which it still doesn't take too much damage (3 on average), deadly explosion that can deter a lot of possible assaults, stomps that ignore invisibility (at least on a roll of 6, 2-5 is still up in the air), immunity to stomp, ability to deny invulnerable saves, etc.

You missed that video then where the Wraithknight kicked the IK ass repeatedly?

And for the points I can get nearly 2 WraithKnights which is so much better it doesn't bear thinking about.

There is also the possibility of two shotting an IK, virtually no shooting attacks can do that and no normal shooting at all, its taking off those horribly hard to shift wounds or nothing. Making a mockery of devestator squads (IK can't).

Basically the IK is good - but its not better. No one is buying your stupid "Eldar are rubbish" rants Morgoth, and every point you've come up with has been countered.

Yes its good, its 375p it damn well should be. Both the IK and the WK are damn good probably on a point per point basis as good as each other and better than a bunch of other things in the game.

Explain to the fascinated crowd what this obsession with, against all logic/reason/argument/persuasion/basic common sense you attempt to downplay the Eldar in almost every thread?

morgoth wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Is one more overpowered for its points cost than the other? Imo I would say no. Both are quite competitive for their points.

Which is true in terms of raw power, since most things that die from an IK would also die from a WK (strength D is still absurd when hitting another IK, WK or Land Raider though).

That's until you start considering all of the advantages the SHW gets over an MC, like immune to everything but explodes, for which it still doesn't take too much damage (3 on average), deadly explosion that can deter a lot of possible assaults, stomps that ignore invisibility (at least on a roll of 6, 2-5 is still up in the air), immunity to stomp, ability to deny invulnerable saves, etc.

You are just listing things. I could do the same. WK are immune to haywire and melta, have no damage rolls at all, can jump over difficult terrain (this is a big one) and do not have to worry about vehicle facing.
IK is 50% more. It should be more destructive. I don't see the problem. As I've said, they are both competitive for their points.

 zephoid wrote:

Corsair Prince allowing 3 squads of FD to deepstrike in (my default corsair/eldar list).

OT but you can't do this. The Prince let's you deep strike 3 units, but they would have to come from his army-detachement. You can only take one Eldar unit in his army.

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 zephoid wrote:

Corsair Prince allowing 3 squads of FD to deepstrike in (my default corsair/eldar list).

OT but you can't do this. The Prince let's you deep strike 3 units, but they would have to come from his army-detachement. You can only take one Eldar unit in his army.

There is nothing in any eratta, FAQ, or RAW that specifies detachment. It specifically states army, which is the broader term still used to describe a force with multiple detachments.

After this entire thread, it seems to me that the IK and WK are earily close in power-per-point. Surprisingly close.

As for FDs, yeah they are melta guns. Full squad of 10 will probably torch an IK if they get into half melta range. But then so will Combi Sternies. To do so, Sternies can pod. FDs can WWP, but that requires an allied HQ be thrown away with them, and denies them battle focus making them a prime target for blasts (making killing them after they do damage even easier, not that it was hard anyways), or the IK needs to end its movement about 12" away from the rear door of a Serpent carrying them, which seems very unlikely.

Seems about equal to podded combiSternies in the melta-drop role.

Bharring wrote:
After this entire thread, it seems to me that the IK and WK are earily close in power-per-point. Surprisingly close.

As for FDs, yeah they are melta guns. Full squad of 10 will probably torch an IK if they get into half melta range. But then so will Combi Sternies. To do so, Sternies can pod. FDs can WWP, but that requires an allied HQ be thrown away with them, and denies them battle focus making them a prime target for blasts (making killing them after they do damage even easier, not that it was hard anyways), or the IK needs to end its movement about 12" away from the rear door of a Serpent carrying them, which seems very unlikely.

Seems about equal to podded combiSternies in the melta-drop role.

Except it doesn't auto land turn 1 ?

So Morgoth got tired of beating the dead horse that was: "Wave Serpents are trash and I haz proof!!11", so he moves on to defending the WK by saying that a much more expensive super heavy walker is only marginally better therefore; it's balanced and anyone who whines about Eldar are TFG's. Classic Morgoth stuff.

As for FDs, yeah they are melta guns. Full squad of 10 will probably torch an IK if they get into half melta range. But then so will Combi Sternies. To do so, Sternies can pod. FDs can WWP, but that requires an allied HQ be thrown away with them, and denies them battle focus making them a prime target for blasts (making killing them after they do damage even easier, not that it was hard anyways), or the IK needs to end its movement about 12" away from the rear door of a Serpent carrying them, which seems very unlikely.

I think you are underestimating the range of firedragons in a waveserpent. The serpent can move 6 and then rotate, the fire dragons can come out 6, and their guns have a half range of 6, which makes for an 18 inch threat range which isn't that small. They can also run and shoot to gain a few more inches.

When it comes to actually doing damage, FD's are far better than sternguard, and here's why: battlefocus. FD's can run and still shoot in the shooting phase. This will allow a well placed FD squad to bypass the shield of a knight, by running to an unprotected facing. Not always possible, but certainly worth a mention.

Screwed up my numbers, 18" from the back door.

If any part of the vehicle moves more than 6", nobody can bail out. Serpents only have one access point, in their unsheilded av10 rear. So it can't just move 6" then rotate. Usually, the movement is going to be little more than then length of the hull, when dropping guys off.

Basically, the IK has to move towards you, and probably not directly face you. Not the hardest thing to force, but a notable drawback of the plan.

As for battle focus, it does help get into position from on the board, but if you WWP them in, there is a model in the unit without battle focus, so noone in the unit can use it.

FDs are good, but in place of BF, Sternies have t4 s4. Might not mean much to heavy weapons, but FDs die a *lot* faster than Sternies. In place of an actual melta gun, Sternies have combies with Special Ammo. More likely to survive to take another shot (still unlikely), but that next round of shooting has a lot of options. Sometimes 2+ poison is better than Melta.

Once again, those tradeoffs seem about fair to me.


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And there's the shoe t1 vs t2+ arrival thing. For melta drops, earlier is critical.