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 extremefreak17 wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
One of the best (possibly apocryphal) stories I've ever read about how addicts make their lives miserable -- DE being basically addicted to evil -- concluded with the cocaine addict telling her shrink, almost in shock, "you mean, I don't have to do what I want to do?"

They are not addicted to evil. Their mortal and immortal lives depend on it. Its not that they want to be evil, they require it to survive.

They don't need to however. There is a process where Dark Eldar can undergo a "rebirth" with a spirit-stone to be effectively reborn as a Craftworld Eldar. There is a chance that it could go awry and kill you, but at least one former Incubi was converted and now is a Striking Scorpion on Alaitoc.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Pretty sure there are no fluff stories whatsoever of a Dark Eldar not enjoying the evil things s/he's doing (and by now there's been quite a few stories from a DE's perspective). I could be wrong but... yea. They might have to do it to survive, but they love doing it too.

Again, if they really really didn't like it, there are other options, even if not easy ones. And sometimes, some DE actually DO take those other options too

...actually, that might be one of the reasons you never see any DE that don't enjoy the evil things they do. Any DE that doesn't enjoy the evil things s/he's doing probably already went on to become an exodite/CWE/harlequin or even a corsair (though most DE corsairs are just as bad) in the first place

I mean absolutely no offense when I say this: Have you people actually read the Dark Eldar codex, the fifth ed one?

It has a passage which blatantly states that the Dark Eldar do what they do to survive. Furthermore, it goes on to say they say they do it for fun and purely because they enjoy it - and they may even mostly believe it themselves (ergo an individual may mostly believe that, not that most of them 100% believe it) - but that there's always the faint nagging of slaanesh. That little niggling. And that, because of this, they pursue the goals of sowing terror and misery, of torturing, with a manic fervor that goes slightly beyond mere enjoyment, that's tinged with desperation.

I guess I don't really understand this thread. Every question that's been asked has an answer in the codex. Every "Hey, it's totally cool that you think Dark Eldar are like that, I have that as my head-cannon!"... is exactly what's in the codex. I'm a little baffled.

So in short, yes. Dark Eldar are uncompromisingly evil and cruel and say it's purely because they want to be. Yet they pursue it with a fervor that goes beyond mere pleasure, so to the careful and knowledgeable observer (us and other Eldar) it can be gleaned that their claims are not entirely the truth. They may enjoy it, but they do it to survive - it's kind of like eating food for them. They are, at the bottom of it all, pitiful and miserable creatures, cursed to a life of cruelty in an attempt to extend their own for as long as possible.

It's noteworthy, as an aside, that the whole "Dark Eldar are hilariously evil" thing could have something to do with the fact that 99.999999% of them are Vat-Borne at this point. It's not just possible, but quite probable that this process of reproduction has stripped them of their innate psychic abilities that all Eldar come with and also driven them bonkers. So far as the whole "Why aren't their good DE? Why don't they choose to pursue other means of survival rather than torture" question? Simple. Vat-Borne are raised on a diet of pain whilst they're in the test-tube, so it could easily mean that there really is no other alternative for most Dark Eldar even if they wanted it.. In addition to being bonkers due to that same process.

I also wonder at some of this discussions reference to "good" and "evil". As far as I have seen in this grimdark game universe they have divorced themselves of that binary notion and instead label things as forces of "Order" or "Chaos". Even still they put groups like the orks and dark eldar as forces of chaos vs order even if they are not part of the armies of the "Chaos gods". So in this twisted instance you can have the argument that "your Evil is my Good".

 morganfreeman wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Pretty sure there are no fluff stories whatsoever of a Dark Eldar not enjoying the evil things s/he's doing (and by now there's been quite a few stories from a DE's perspective). I could be wrong but... yea. They might have to do it to survive, but they love doing it too.

Again, if they really really didn't like it, there are other options, even if not easy ones. And sometimes, some DE actually DO take those other options too

...actually, that might be one of the reasons you never see any DE that don't enjoy the evil things they do. Any DE that doesn't enjoy the evil things s/he's doing probably already went on to become an exodite/CWE/harlequin or even a corsair (though most DE corsairs are just as bad) in the first place

I mean absolutely no offense when I say this: Have you people actually read the Dark Eldar codex, the fifth ed one?

It has a passage which blatantly states that the Dark Eldar do what they do to survive. Furthermore, it goes on to say they say they do it for fun and purely because they enjoy it - and they may even mostly believe it themselves (ergo an individual may mostly believe that, not that most of them 100% believe it) - but that there's always the faint nagging of slaanesh. That little niggling. And that, because of this, they pursue the goals of sowing terror and misery, of torturing, with a manic fervor that goes slightly beyond mere enjoyment, that's tinged with desperation.

I guess I don't really understand this thread. Every question that's been asked has an answer in the codex. Every "Hey, it's totally cool that you think Dark Eldar are like that, I have that as my head-cannon!"... is exactly what's in the codex. I'm a little baffled.

So in short, yes. Dark Eldar are uncompromisingly evil and cruel and say it's purely because they want to be. Yet they pursue it with a fervor that goes beyond mere pleasure, so to the careful and knowledgeable observer (us and other Eldar) it can be gleaned that their claims are not entirely the truth. They may enjoy it, but they do it to survive - it's kind of like eating food for them. They are, at the bottom of it all, pitiful and miserable creatures, cursed to a life of cruelty in an attempt to extend their own for as long as possible.

It's noteworthy, as an aside, that the whole "Dark Eldar are hilariously evil" thing could have something to do with the fact that 99.999999% of them are Vat-Borne at this point. It's not just possible, but quite probable that this process of reproduction has stripped them of their innate psychic abilities that all Eldar come with and also driven them bonkers. So far as the whole "Why aren't their good DE? Why don't they choose to pursue other means of survival rather than torture" question? Simple. Vat-Borne are raised on a diet of pain whilst they're in the test-tube, so it could easily mean that there really is no other alternative for most Dark Eldar even if they wanted it.. In addition to being bonkers due to that same process.

I never said they did it PURELY because they enjoyed it. Yes, they DO need to do it to survive. However, they also enjoy it.

Bear in mind the post I was replying to specifically said they don't want to be evil. That's wrong.

They BOTH want to be evil AND need to be. Those few that don't want to be evil instead go on to (or attempt to) become harlequins, CWE, exodites, and corsairs (or die in the attempt).

The option to live a not-as-evil life IS there (even if risky and difficult). And some DE DO take it. The ones that don't... well, don't, and continue on their evil ways.

 Zakiriel wrote:
I also wonder at some of this discussions reference to "good" and "evil". As far as I have seen in this grimdark game universe they have divorced themselves of that binary notion and instead label things as forces of "Order" or "Chaos". Even still they put groups like the orks and dark eldar as forces of chaos vs order even if they are not part of the armies of the "Chaos gods". So in this twisted instance you can have the argument that "your Evil is my Good".

The codex outright says the Dark Eldar are the most evil faction.

The Rogue Trader RPG also says it. (Well, more specifically, it disclaims that (paraphrase) "to simply say the Dark Eldar are evil while the CWE are good is a gross oversimplification that isn't entirely accurate, yet there is still some truth to it".).

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Hold on a sec it can be up to debate whether or not CWE are as evil as DE.

Now DE are mass torturing sadists no doubt about it but...

-CWE INTENTIONALLY caused Armageddon.
-CWE have caused more human deaths in the long run than DE ever could (Armageddon casualties alone is enough to make the DE shudder.)
-Randomly destroy and slaughter frontier worlds, cuz theyz wuz there first.

I feel like CWE might not enjoy killing, but have definitely killed more people.

How was armaggedon evil? Mankind and the eldar are enemies who don't trust each other and constantly backstab each other. Honestly turning Ghazgull on Armageddon to hurt his enemies and watch them destroy each other was a brilliant tactical move on eldrads part. There was nothing evil about it, eldar lives were in danger and so eldrad sent orks at the imperium instead.
And they don't randomly destroy frontier worlds, they attack imperials settling their worlds which can involve mankind attempting to exterminate an exodite population already on world. Some worlds are also attacked because of chaos influence or a need to starve tyranids. Eldar aren't random, they always have a reason for what they do. Some can be evil but that doesn't make the entire race evil,much less as evil as their twisted kin.

Armageddon is broiling he'll hole where millions die each day and is slowly building up the super waaaaaagh that might destroy the whole galaxy.

Causing that is pretty damn evil

In the end, all Eldar view themselves as the only real people. All other races are treated like animals. Maybe amusing or useful animals, but still not as people deserving of the same level of respect or attention. Eldar who for whatever reason are sympathetic to other races could be viewed as animal lovers or activists. They are sympathetic and nice to animals, who are still not people, and if push came to shove, would still side with people (i.e. Eldar) albeit perhaps with some regret. Think of how for example animals are euthanized if they have already hurt people. Most animal lovers would still accept that as a regrettable but necessary move. The Eldar causing such events for other races, in order to preserve their own, could be likened to how today animals are culled in order to prevent the spread of disease. From the perspective of the animals, it is horrific and evil. From the perspective of the humans, it may be a regrettable, unfortunate, cruel but still necessary act.

Part of the reason for their views aside from that of culture, is the biological difference between them and others. They move faster, think faster, and have greater memories than humans (as per Path of the Eldar, they have almost eidetic memories). They live much longer and all have psychic potential (the Dark Eldar have theirs blunted and undeveloped but it is still there as per Valedor). So to their eyes, non-Eldar are short-lived, slow, clumsy and slow-witted. It's hard to strike up a relationship as equals with a human, if that human will grow old, become senile and demented, and die in a tenth or less of your own natural lifespan. Turn around, do your Path thing for a few decades, and come back to find the human already dead. Yes life extension treatments are possible in the Imperium for humans but this is for the elite and powerful, and even then they still age or look "plastic"/unnatural (like Inquisitor Kryptman), while an Eldar can live for a thousand years naturally. A single Eldar can live through many generations humans, so their ability to really form any kind of emotional bond or friendship (as equals) with a human may be limited by the differences in viewpoint due to their lifespan. Imagine trying to form a long term relationship with a pet rat.

The Eldar language is described as being very complex with many historical or mythical references, but this is manageable for Eldar because of their memories. Imagine trying to teach anything beyond the very basics to a human who does not have eidetic memory to remember all the references and with a human's short lifespan. While in stories or RPG it is possible to learn the Eldar language, I see it as being the equivalent of being able to grunt out the basics. Functional, but to a native Eldar speaker, it sounds clumsy, with grammatical errors, lacking in any grace or eloquence or with stylistically incorrect choices of words or addressing (3rd ed. Codex says using informal names in formal settings can offend as can using excessive formality in informal situations). At best I see it like young children learning how to speak, and perhaps this might also explain why the Eldar might view them patronizingly.

Redseer wrote:

And they don't randomly destroy frontier worlds

Um... from a human pov, they definitely do. You can say that Eldar Exodites were living there first, but it's been stated in the canon that human settlers often aren't aware that Exodites are living on a planet. The Eldar will often also deliver a deadline to evacuate that is completely impossible for a poor group of colonist farmers to meet, and then wipe them out anyway. Remember, a group of colonists (who may have floated in on a piece of junk ship that's little more than a space raft) do not equal the entire Imperium, with all the military might and xenophobia that implies. Most of the colonists wiped out by CWE probably have no idea what is going on and are scared out of their minds. The Eldar care not, especially the Biel Tan, for whom this is pretty much their whole shtick. Biel Tan are stated to give little to no warning before wiping out colonizers.

Iracundus is right that the Eldar view humans and other races as animals rather than people, and the Biel Tan definitely aren't on the "animal lovers" side of the spectrum. They view humans as pests that need to be exterminated if they get into your house.

I do agree that sending the Orks to Armageddon was morally justified from and Eldar point of view. For them, it wasn't that different from what Inquisitor Kryptmann did sending the Tyranids at the Orks, except that Armageddon isn't a war where the winning side will always be stronger than both sides were going in. If the humans win (best case scenario for the Eldar) the Ork threat is wiped out and the Imperium is significantly worn down. It's even likely that Eldrad did what he did because he foresaw that the humans WOULD win. So Armageddon was a much smarter tactical move than what Kryptmann did.

I'm pretty sure only the very richest Dark Eldar can afford the services of a Haemonculus to bring them back.

For everyone else dead is dead.

FFG depicts Eldar as being fairly big jerks, as it mentions a few instances where entire colonies were killed and dismantled because they happened to land on a (long abandoned) maiden world.

 fallinq wrote:

Redseer wrote:

And they don't randomly destroy frontier worlds

Um... from a human pov, they definitely do.

I'm not speaking for the human pov, I'm speaking for what's actually happening in these attacks. You raise some good points about many times receiving impossible deadlines, but that's not always the case. In th 4th edition codex the eldar forced a settlements surrender and then moved them to a nearby inhabitable moon telling them that there would be no more trouble if the humans leave the maiden world alone. And while Biel Tan is extremely harsh towards the other races that doesn't make it the case for all eldar, look at characters like Illic Nightspear who has befriended a space marine. There are several examples like this in fluff. They're just as veried from good to evil as humans. But honestly were throwing this thread off track so lets save any further arguments for a more appropriate thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol unintentionally screwed up that quote. My apologies on that

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Hold on a sec it can be up to debate whether or not CWE are as evil as DE.

Now DE are mass torturing sadists no doubt about it but...

-CWE INTENTIONALLY caused Armageddon.
-CWE have caused more human deaths in the long run than DE ever could (Armageddon casualties alone is enough to make the DE shudder.)
-Randomly destroy and slaughter frontier worlds, cuz theyz wuz there first.

I feel like CWE might not enjoy killing, but have definitely killed more people.

I am a vegetarian. I still believe in doing animal testing when there is no other choice and it could save human lives. Does that makes me evil? What about all those people that would kill animals not to save lives, but just because they taste better?
That is how CWE see humans: as animals that they would not harm without reasons, but whose lives are negligible over Eldar lives. Cannot blame them, can we? Because we are doing the same and worse with our animals.