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"Hidden power fist" gets far more attention than it deserves.

They are still just marines in defense, a pack of 5 is easy to wipe out before the fist gets to swing, if they even reached CC.
A bigger pack is getting awfully expensive.

And in any case your hidden fist need some method to get anywhere.

As for extra specials, so can plague marines, who are even more expensive, but come with a slew of special stuff. and are OS if you got a nurgle lord (a fair chance you do, they are pretty good)



Also, as stated before-cypher changes the game with them, haivng infiltrate and ATSKNF actually makes a meaningful bonus to them. still not great min you-but they have a purpose.

 BoomWolf wrote:
"Hidden power fist" gets far more attention than it deserves.

They are still just marines in defense, a pack of 5 is easy to wipe out before the fist gets to swing, if they even reached CC.
A bigger pack is getting awfully expensive.

Hidden power fist is a hidden power fist. You don't want your sarge dead before striking with a fist. And you still need means of dealing with armor and high toughness / 2+. It's not omnipotent but it's definitely better than a non-hidden powerfist.
A squad of 10 unmarked chosen is 20 pts more expensive than a squad of 10 khornate marines that don't have a hidden fist, bolters and get the same ammount of attacks only on the first round of combat and ld9 only on a champ. You're paying just 12.5% for this perks.

20 pts being 12.5% of the base cost for 10 models is NOT 'awfully expensive'.

Plague marines are great as msu, nothing new here. But let's look at the points.
Chaos space marines: 75 pt base. 1 special, 1 combi max. Ld9 only on a champ. Bolter or 2 ccw - not both. Obsec.
Chosen: 90 pt base. as many specials as you want. Ld9 on everyone. Both bolter and ccw.
Plague marines: 120 pt base - 2 specials, 1 combi max but you most likely won't need more. Fearless. Come stock with poisoned daggers, def nades, t5 and FNP.

I do think that plague marines are better overall than chosen for this role if you have extra points to spare. But as a retinue in a landraider - firstly, they're coming to be much more expensive this way and have less attacks and no hidden fists. Though, they're undoubtfully more durable. It's fine and a fare exchange but the main killer here is that they're marked.

It is when your baseline unit for comparison is too expensive to begin with.

Yes, the upgrade from khorne marines to chosen is not very expensive, but khorne marines to begin with are poor marines.
(also, you lose OS, but lets put that aside)

updated the previous post

If you are using a land raider, isn't it just better to get a bunch of termis and be done with it though?

When you compare base stats, you less than 60% increase the PPM (18 to 31) for over double the durability (3+ to 2+/5++), improve everyone to combie bolters (slight improvement in shooting. though per cost its probably worse off) and get power weapons all around.

And the hidden power fist is 7 points, not 25. while the non-fist guys still pack themselves some power weapons of choice (axes are nearly as good, swords and maces never hurt having)

No specials, but you can get combies to your heart desire, and cheaper per combie.
28 points for a combie chosen, 36 for a combie termie. 8 point upgrade to a termi armor is a no-brainer.


I'd take 3 termies with a hidden fist over 5 chosen with a hidden fist any day, and the termies would cost less. (102 to 115)

Termies can't sweep. They're significantly less choppy vs hordes and comparably choppy vs everything else other than 2+ if you take axes. But generally the HQ will deal with 2+ himself.
Termies have awesome models to my taste, however, and i like them to go deepstriking in a small unit with combi-plazma somewhere on the flank or in the backfield or try to bolster the important point on the front.

So, i think that power armored guyz are better for chaos landraiders.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If you are using a land raider, isn't it just better to get a bunch of termis and be done with it though?

That's really the choice you need to make. You can take a bunch of terminators with their awesome armor saves, or you can take a bunch of Chosen with their awesome weapons. They both cost about the same, one kills more things, one lasts longer in most games. So decide.

In 6th edition, a squad of Chosen with MoS, IoE and 5 flamers was no joke. I know the rules for overwatch have changed a bit, but it used to be the squad you could not charge and that would beat just about anything in cc.

Isn't the point of this thread to point out how you can use Chosen effectively?

We can bash them and the whole codex for that matter:
Chaos stinks. Wave serpent spam for the win.

Or, we can figure out ways to use chosen as the OP asked.

Just sayn.

 techsoldaten wrote:
In 6th edition, a squad of Chosen with MoS, IoE and 5 flamers was no joke. I know the rules for overwatch have changed a bit, but it used to be the squad you could not charge and that would beat just about anything in cc.

Interesting setup, and it comes out quite cheap (similar in price to an SM vanguard squad). Multitemplate attacks are underrated, as all the hits stack - it's what makes things like Thunderfire Cannons so good. Ork players who use burnas know what I'm talking about - with 5 templates, and proper positioning of the Chosen so that you can boost the maximum range of casualties, you can probably land more hits on the opponent's squad than they have actual models.

One super nice thing about chosen is that they don't lose their extra melee weapon when they take a special weapon - they will never have fewer than 3 attacks in close combat, out-stripping every other type of power armor marine. And while T4 3+ armor isn't very good against shooting, it's quite durable in close combat. So that flamer or plasma squadron can sit out in the open and shoot, and then just dare the opponent to attack them. Against melee horde armies, this really plays into their strengths (especially with the brutal overwatch of 5 flamers).

 Green is Best! wrote:
Isn't the point of this thread to point out how you can use Chosen effectively?

We can bash them and the whole codex for that matter:
Chaos stinks. Wave serpent spam for the win.

Or, we can figure out ways to use chosen as the OP asked.

Just sayn.

What OP asked is if they are any good.
So "No, you got other units in the same codex that does the same job the same way, but better/cheaper" is a valid answer.

Regarding multiple templates-less so in 7th, as you resolve guns one type at a time, and cannot extend over your range, so you can no longer kill outside the gun range.

As for relying on their 3 attacks for counter-assault, one must remember they are still 18PPM before taking guns into account, and are probably in the area of 28 PPM when you do. (28 is melta, plasmas land you in 33)
Any unit that is remotely decent in assault will out-do them by this point. its not "daring them to attack" when they will win it, there is simply a better chance you will hurt them back a bit.
You really are better off getting the guns off havocs for cheaper. you don't get the 3 attacks, but you are cheaper, and a gun squad really cares not for attack-if they CCed you, the points invested intoguns are lost already.
Ironically the havok champ is more expensive than chosen champ though, but even havocs with CCW and MoK, a silly of a setup as you get, are better at absorving the assault, for similar price. (slightly more for minimal squad, slightly less for 5 ablative wound squad, brakes even at champ+7 dudes)

The point is simple, havocs do gun teams better, terminators do beatstick teams better. and both are not considered amazing as it is.
Chosen require either a price brake, or to get something special to call their own in order to be truly worth using, and be worth of the name. just having more attacks nad better LD does not cut it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
Isn't the point of this thread to point out how you can use Chosen effectively?

We can bash them and the whole codex for that matter:
Chaos stinks. Wave serpent spam for the win.

Or, we can figure out ways to use chosen as the OP asked.

Just sayn.

What OP asked is if they are any good.
So "No, you got other units in the same codex that does the same job the same way, but better/cheaper" is a valid answer.

That's a good point. This discussion shouldn't happen in a vacuum: the CSM codex is under-powered, and Chosen have a lot of downsides (mainly cost, fragility, and the lack of transport options). Other units in the codex are more tried-and-true as a platform for carrying special weapons, or as dedicated assault - a very competitive tournament list probably wouldn't touch Chosen. But, to the OP's question: "are they worth it?". In a non-tournament-competitive game, sure, they can carry their weight.

 BoomWolf wrote:

So "No, you got other units in the same codex that does the same job the same way, but better/cheaper" is a valid answer.

I disagree. They're one of the prime options for a landraider retinue. They're doing great within cypher formation. They might have other uses, for example as a small squad in a rhino - but i'm not quite sure if they'd be better than plague marines or basica marines for the points in this case.

The biggest issue with this discussion is, listening to the comments given, my impression is that the main detractors of chosen are people who have either never used them and just dismiss them out of hand, or have tried them once or twice found they didn't fit and moved on. Anyone who has decided to play around with chosen and decided to find out how they fit with your army will find they bring a lot to the table. They really add a lot of flexibility to your army and the biggest thing to remember is not to arm them acording to your needs, arm them acording to the point value you're playing.

Last sunday I played an 8000/side game (regular game, just big points on a 8x4 table with d3 terrain pieces per 2x2 square.
In that game, part of the 150 marines and mixed in amongst the bikes, helbrutes, fiends and vindicators were

3x landraiders w/dozerblade, dirge caster
Carrying 8x chosen w/Mok, IoW, 2xmelta, 2x power fist, 1xpower sword, champ w/combi-melta, powersword
-ML3 biomancy sorcerer w/force axe, spell familiar, term armour

The only think I will change the next time I use them is to definately give them VoLW, just to take the edge off of a bad roll. 1 of the three squads rolled so abysmally poorly that in another 30 games, odds are they'd never roll that bad again (they litterally killed 1 marine with 2+ armour), the other rolled pretty bad and still crushed a similarly matched DC squad and moved out with the sorcerer, champ and all 3 power weapons still standing (and that was rolling bad to hit/wound), and the only one to roll average was pitted against 5 or 6 hammernators, Gabriel Seth and Corbulo. They crushed, and I mean crushed them.

Because this was the first time I'd armed them exactly like this, I chose not to fire the 3 melta blasts first before I charged. I wanted to see exactly what they could do in close combat.

Most other times I've used them, they're the escort to a lord and the squad has no mark, 3xmelta and 2 power swords or 5 flamers and removes hordes literraly by the dozens. They drive up in a rhino along with 20 other marines in rhinos. I get so comfortable with their killing power that the lord either charges a small squad on his own or joins up with a weaker csm squad to charge something and the chosen take out a different target.

What I really dislike is people calling the chaos codex weak or underpowered. I love playing my chaos marines and while they are definately things I wish were different about the codex, I love figuring out how to make the units I want to take work with my army and playstyle. I've never played a "netlist" or a boring list yet and I've never at the end of a game felt that I only lost because of my codex.

The CSM are a labour of love and the only way to figure out what chosen are good for is to try them out in a lot of different ways and use them to augment your army, instead of as the focal point. Even in that 8000 point list the chosen were supposed to be the hammer driving the last few nails in as most of the rest of the list was short ranged, high volume mobile shooting oriented. Oh, and a list with that many Chaos Marines without any "highly competative" units was on my short list of games that come to mind as the most fun I've ever had playing a single game.

++ for some play testing Chosen love! Really enjoying all the thoughts and ideas you lot have put into this thread.

My buddy and I are recreating the Dark Vengeance & Expansion kits in a battle of epic fisticuffs sometime over the holiday break. He's running DA with the Unrelenting Hunt dataslate formation, I'm running CSM with Kranon's Hellguard formation.
1200pts, using only the models in those three boxes as represented , but we're allowed to equip them as we please within the pts limit.
Yep, I realize he's got a decent advantage.
But it's so fluffy!

So I've got 7 Chosen to play with (6 Chosen + Aspiring Champion), and trying to figure out how to kit them led me here. Likely going to stuff them in the Land Raider with the Lord, DS the Termies.

I'm looking at Draznicht as the Champ, with his Maul and Preferred Enemy for Plasma and CC win.
2 Melta, 2 Plasma Gun, Fist. But I'm torn on the whole melta/plasma gun thing.

Plasma Guns mean Rapid Fire, which means they won't be able to assault from the LR. But Melta guns have less Dakka, less range. And mix'n'match seems like the worst of both worlds.
What to do?
Got a couple flamers, another fist, two axes.

My favorite way to run them has been 6 in a rhino with 5 plasma guns and draznicht taking a combi-plasma. I usually fill another rhino alongside them with thousand sons. If I get infiltrate, I put them in reserves to outflank or get them in an optimal position on the board to disembark and rapid fire a tasty target (I've killed more than a few dreadknights, riptides, and flying tyrants with 12 PE plasma shots). I find the AP2 unit is well supported by the AP3 unit in either deployment mode as well.

In terms of survivability, I find they get a few turns of shooting off when you're careful with limiting threats in their radius. Also, I tend to find my maulerfiends are the first priorities for opponents and then it's often my 3 man units of bikers with meltas that get targeted next. Having numerous units aggressively in your opponents deployment with nasty weapons makes them work far better as opponents can't deal with all of them at once. The chosen are often the ones getting several rounds of shooting in.

Regarding LC vs power sword. The lightning claw is almost always better, especially for models with multiple attacks. The shred doubles wound chances for all attacks that the model has while the sword only gives +1 attack (with pistol).

 lessthanjeff wrote:
My favorite way to run them has been 6 in a rhino with 5 plasma guns and draznicht taking a combi-plasma. I usually fill another rhino alongside them with thousand sons. If I get infiltrate, I put them in reserves to outflank or get them in an optimal position on the board to disembark and rapid fire a tasty target (I've killed more than a few dreadknights, riptides, and flying tyrants with 12 PE plasma shots). I find the AP2 unit is well supported by the AP3 unit in either deployment mode as well.

In terms of survivability, I find they get a few turns of shooting off when you're careful with limiting threats in their radius. Also, I tend to find my maulerfiends are the first priorities for opponents and then it's often my 3 man units of bikers with meltas that get targeted next. Having numerous units aggressively in your opponents deployment with nasty weapons makes them work far better as opponents can't deal with all of them at once. The chosen are often the ones getting several rounds of shooting in.

Too bad you can't get draznicht via chyper chosen though

Yeah, I don't tend to run mine with Cypher if that was the impression I gave. I often run Ahriman though and have him in the rhino with the thousand sons (spamming several psychic screams out of the rhino's fire points) which gives the infiltrate warlord trait or I hope to roll the other one in the main rulebook.

Note, however, that To infiltrate ahriman + 1000 sons, you need to give infiltrate both to the squad and to ahriman. That's taking up 2 out of d3 allready. But you need to spend just 1 out of d3 to outflank. However, outflankers run into an issue of arriving late and on a wrong flank.

I played a second 8000 point with MoS and 4 powerswords 2 melta and combi melta instead of MoK and 1 powersword and 2 powerfistst. Epic. Just Epic. Next time I'm dropping another mleta for another powersword or fist. I used 4 plas+combiplas and powersword in Rhinos on 3 squads and 3 of the powersword/melta squads in landraiders. They went along with 30 noisemarines w/blastmasters and sonic blasters and assorted longrange firepower and HQ's. After using chosen in so many games recently, I'm going to try to work at least a squad into all my lists from now on regardless of points.

 koooaei wrote:
Note, however, that To infiltrate ahriman + 1000 sons, you need to give infiltrate both to the squad and to ahriman. That's taking up 2 out of d3 allready. But you need to spend just 1 out of d3 to outflank. However, outflankers run into an issue of arriving late and on a wrong flank.

Is that the case? I know that the rule specifies independent characters without infiltrate cannot join units with infiltrate during deployment, but it doesn't say that the other way around for characters with infiltrate joining units without it. I took that to mean that they did want an independent character to be able to share his rule with the unit he joins just not the other way around.

RAW it doesn't work cause you technically don't join a character before deployment. Thus a unit doesn't get infiltrate provided by a character even if he was able to share it. So, can't infiltrate. Forcing you to give infiltrato for both the squad and indep to make it work.

 King Pariah wrote:
Surprised no one mentioned using Crimson Slaughter.

It really only helps out one unit of chosen by making them Draznicht's Ravagers (for an additional 10 points) which gives them PE as long as the Chosen Champion doesn't die. Deck out the squad with Plasma is what I've found gives me more bang for my buck.

This.

Preferred Enemy for 10pts is a steal.
IIRC you can still get Huron or Ahriman in Crimson Slaughter.
Infiltrating Plasma Death Squad Chosen in a Rhino with Preferred Enemy has got to count for something!

Flat-out a rhino afterwards to block los to them. Get another turn of shooting.