Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SaJeel wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

no rule says that. It's a guess, it might be logical guess, but a guess all the same. This was also brought up in the first page of the thread listed above.

Incorrect
"Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power.
Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule,
or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically"
One power, one roll to hit, unless it states otherwise or it has a weapon profile[see the lines before the quoted rule in the BrB,sorry i cant site pg numbers i have the E book version]

The rule you posted doesn't say 1 roll to hit. Nor does any other rule in the book.

col_impact wrote:
Take a look at the actual rules.

I am aware, they've been posted enough times and I wouldn't offer up a post if I wasn't aware of what they say. Can you please stop implying that I don't know what they say, havn't read them or anything else. It's getting beyond rude now, there's no need to keep repeating them.

I am sorry but going directly against the rules is not a tenable solution if we want to play a game where we follow the rules. Skipping the To Hit roll is not justified by the rules.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. It's not an opion that I (or half the community apparently) share.

The thread for discussing rules has been closed. You're offering nothing new here that wasn't brought up there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
First things first, we need to shut down the "Skip the To Hit" solution as having no rules justification and being untenable, or else the thread gets polluted and defocused.

You should know from the last thread this is an argument that can't be shut down. Either solution is opinion.

Skip a stage that cannot be completed by the rules.
or
Invent steps that allow you to complete it.

God In Action,
I can not see how the Results from the To Hit portion of the instructions matter, but before people start misquoting that, allow me to explain:

I'm still on the fence over the whole thing because the Rule as Written are completely ******, honestly the only true answer we can ever give is 'stuffed if we know.'

However, I did take the time to look over a few Focused Witchfire entries and the Formatting used is a large piece of the puzzle for me. That piece informs me that the problem is far more extensive then profiles which lack critical details needed to Resolve them during a Shooting Sequence. What very few people realize, the fact every Power has additional instructions needed to be followed to Resolve them is the other side of the same problem. The vast majority of these additional instructions have no place within the default Shooting Sequence, there is no Step which states 'Resolve Powers now' before the Sequence ends. This wouldn't be much of an issue if we had further instructions telling how to modify the Sequence, but the very fact this thread comes up almost weekly should be indication that we have no such instructions.

That leaves me with just this question:
If the Power can not be Resolved as part of the Shooting Sequence, why would the result of a Step from that sequence change the Resolution?

 grendel083 wrote:

SaJeel wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

no rule says that. It's a guess, it might be logical guess, but a guess all the same. This was also brought up in the first page of the thread listed above.

Incorrect
"Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power.
Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule,
or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically"
One power, one roll to hit, unless it states otherwise or it has a weapon profile[see the lines before the quoted rule in the BrB,sorry i cant site pg numbers i have the E book version]

The rule you posted doesn't say 1 roll to hit. Nor does any other rule in the book.

col_impact wrote:
Take a look at the actual rules.

I am aware, they've been posted enough times and I wouldn't offer up a post if I wasn't aware of what they say. Can you please stop implying that I don't know what they say, havn't read them or anything else. It's getting beyond rude now, there's no need to keep repeating them.

I am sorry but going directly against the rules is not a tenable solution if we want to play a game where we follow the rules. Skipping the To Hit roll is not justified by the rules.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. It's not an opion that I (or half the community apparently) share.

The thread for discussing rules has been closed. You're offering nothing new here that wasn't brought up there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
First things first, we need to shut down the "Skip the To Hit" solution as having no rules justification and being untenable, or else the thread gets polluted and defocused.

You should know from the last thread this is an argument that can't be shut down. Either solution is opinion.

Skip a stage that cannot be completed by the rules.
or
Invent steps that allow you to complete it.

In rules discussions before judges, opinions that are backed by rules win out over opinions that are not backed by rules.

col_impact wrote:
In rules discussions before judges, opinions that are backed by rules win out over opinions that are not backed by rules.

And as you said before, it doesn't work by the rules, correct?

So what are we debating? My house rule is better than your house rule? Seriously?

If you want to debate house rules, then open a thread in Proposed Rules.

(good thing Law doesn't follow a permissive rule set...)

JinxDragon wrote:
God In Action,
I can not see how the Results from the To Hit portion of the instructions matter.
Before people start misquoting that, allow me to explain.

I'm still on the fence over the whole thing because the Rule as Written are completely ******, the only true answer we can ever give is 'stuffed if we know.' However, I did take the time to look over a few Focused Witchfire entries and the Formatting used is a large piece of the puzzle for me. The problem isn't just the lack of details in a few Powers that many focus on, all the additional instructions also create problem for the concept that we Resolve the power within the Shooting Sequence itself.

Even the better written Powers will require us to do something like a Toughness test or some sort of Leadership test before we get to the 'Wounds' that tend to be generated. There is no step within the Shooting Sequence that allows such to occur, so we have to either modify the existing sequence or come to the conclusion that the power is Resolved separate to the Sequence itself. This wouldn't be much of an issue if we had further instructions telling us what to do in these situations, but the very fact this thread comes up almost weekly should be indication that we have no such instructions.

That leaves me with just this question:
If the Power can not be Resolved as part of the Shooting Sequence, why would the result of one step from that sequence change the Resolution?

The power can be resolved as part of the Shooting Sequence. All it needs is "Instead of a To Wound roll ..." and then everything falls completely into place. Witchfire resolves. Shooting sequence works. RAI to resolve as witchfire supported. No buffs granted.

col_impact wrote:
The power can be resolved as part of the Shooting Sequence. All it needs is "Instead of a To Wound roll ..." and then everything falls completely into place. Witchfire resolves. Shooting sequence works. RAI to resolve as witchfire supported. No buffs granted.

Except you still havn't covered the number of dice need to roll to hit with the change.
I'm guessing you propose 1 as part of this house rule?

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The power can be resolved as part of the Shooting Sequence. All it needs is "Instead of a To Wound roll ..." and then everything falls completely into place. Witchfire resolves. Shooting sequence works. RAI to resolve as witchfire supported. No buffs granted.

Except you still havn't covered the number of dice need to roll to hit with the change.
I'm guessing you propose 1 as part of this house rule?

No, we look to the rules. The rules provide justification for using one when the number of shots is not stated.

col_impact wrote:


SaJeel - I appreciate that you have a more polished argument and we should address it. First things first, we need to shut down the "Skip the To Hit" solution as having no rules justification and being untenable, or else the thread gets polluted and defocused.

Meanwhile, SaJeel, clarify what you do in your solution on successful To Hit rolls.

Thanks and i yes simply saying that you "skip the to hit" doesn't make any sense.
I am saying however the psychic power is ressolved prior to the Hit roll being made,
so nothing really happens on the successful or unsuccessful to hit roll
Quoting my first post

I start at the psychic sequence,
Select my psyker> I declare my target> >take the psy test>>deny witch[power goes off]>Ressolve power>
Power is focused witchfire, the target must take a leadership test
so i enter the shooting sequence
Nominate my psyker to shoot>choose my target>
(at this point i return to the psy power as i have my target)> Target must take a leadership test
And then i finish resolving the power and then exit the sequence.

I realize there is probably some hole in this logic and thats why i posted it up so you guys can find it =D.
My first post goes into greater detail outlining every sequence rule in the psychic and shooting phase,
along with the case where my proposition runs into trouble.
Col_Impact, im sorry i can't specifically answer your question =S, i hope you can see why im having trouble with it,

col_impact wrote:
No, we look to the rules. The rules provide justification for using one when the number of shots is not stated.

Yet neither of those give an answer.
We don't know how many shots there are, as there is no profile.

So again, are you proposing 1?

The number of shots is one, because it is one psychic attack the rules clearly state that, and I already clarified that in a previous post, One psy ability=one to hit roll unless otherwise stated

SaJeel wrote:
The number of shots is one, because it is one psychic attack the rules clearly state that, and I already clarified that in a previous post, One psy ability=one to hit roll unless otherwise stated

Sorry, I know you said it earlier, but again no rule actual says that. Anywhere.
Feel free to try and find it, I'm afraid it doesn't exist.

One shot means on To Hit roll. We don't know how many shots, as there's no profile.
One shot because it's one psychic attack really isn't a rule.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
No, we look to the rules. The rules provide justification for using one when the number of shots is not stated.

Yet neither of those give an answer.
We don't know how many shots there are, as there is no profile.

So again, are you proposing 1?

I quoted rules that indicate one is the unstated default.





Do you have rules to indicate otherwise?

Here we go

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Alright so lets run through this with psy shriek, Ok so first, it is a shooting attack, it doesn't have a profile similar to a ranged weapon. It can see a target. It must roll to hit. It is one power so it must roll one time. So that makes one roll to hit when i try to manifest the power, but... and here is the big butt, with my solution that doesnt even matter, because you never reach the roll to hit, the power resolves before that

SaJeel wrote:

 God In Action wrote:
But it's quite obvious that changing Psychic Overload to be an automatic hit is interpreting a rule with a clear advantage gained. The inclusion of a To Hit roll in the Witchfire rule very clearly demonstrates the intention of there being a chance to miss. Taking away that chance to miss is very clearly interpreting to gain a benefit. In order to claim that interpreting the power as an automatic hit is not against the intended spirit of the Witchfire rules, you'd need to claim that the entire inclusion of the requirement to roll To Hit was accidental on the authors' part. That is a far larger assumption than the assumption involved in the solution of 1x To Hit roll per manifestation.

If interpreting Psychic Overload as an automatic hit were not to be as a gained advantage, you would need to show that there was no evidence of an intended chance to miss in the rules. Whilst those rules are RAW broken and don't specify what exactly the chance to miss or hit should be, they nonetheless do spell out that there is an undefined chance in there somewhere.

Ok first my interpretation isn't technically an automatic hit, the order of operations has the spell resolve prior to the "to hit roll,"
if you can show me how that interpretation is incorrect please do.

Your second sentence completely ignores my first post, and doesn't really seem to be adding anything other than arguing for arguing sake.

As you have said "The inclusion of a To Hit roll in the Witchfire rule very clearly demonstrates the intention of there being a chance to miss"
I could easily say,"The inclusion of the word Target in the Shriek rule very clearly demonstrates the intention of the being no chance to miss.
Taking away no chance to miss is very learly interpreting the rule to nerf it"
See that kind of statement doesnt really work...=S

" In order to claim that interpreting the power as an automatic hit " I'm not making that claim.

"If interpreting Psychic Overload as an automatic hit were not to be as a gained advantage,
you would need to show that there was no evidence of an intended chance to miss in the rules."

That sentence I don't understand, please rephrase it

Why would the Ld test occur before the To Hit roll? Surely: 1. declare target. 2. take psychic test. 3. deny the witch. 4. To Hit. 5. Ld Test. 6. Resolve wounds.
The method for resolving a Witchfire test places the To Hit roll before the effect of the psychic power. In an unambiguous example- you wouldn't work out the effects of being hit by Smite before you had rolled to see if it hit. Likewise, why would you work out the effects of Psychic Shriek or Overload before rolling to see if it hit?

The second sentence about the intention of there being a chance to miss: I am arguing that the emphasis on To Hit rolls in the Witchfire rules is evidence of the intended meaning being that a To Hit roll should always be taken before a psychic power is cast, which would then be failed if the To Hit roll missed.

The word target doesn't have anything to do with automatic hits. An enemy unit is a target of a normal shooting attack, just because that enemy units is the target doesn't make all shots hit automatically, or not need to roll To Hit. So no I don't see that you could just as easily say Target = intention of automatic hit. 'Target' has literally no connection to automatic hits, in either rules or language.

But the most important thing here is, if I've understood correctly, your interpretation is that you do not need to roll To Hit with Psychic Shriek or Overload, because the effect of the psychic power is resolved before the To Hit roll?

col_impact wrote:
I quoted rules that indicate one is the unstated default.

Indicated and unstated. So not RaW? Got it.
Why is it so hard to just say "yes"? You are proposing 1 dice in your house rule.
The last thread would have been 10 pages shorter had you just given a straight answer, why the dodging? There's no trap.

If a To Hit Roll is the intent, then I agree 1 dice would be the obvious number. See, not so hard to say?
It is still house ruling and HIWPI, not RaW however.

grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I quoted rules that indicate one is the unstated default.

Indicated and unstated. So not RaW? Got it.
Why is it so hard to just say "yes"? You are proposing 1 dice in your house rule.
The last thread would have been 10 pages shorter had you just given a straight answer, why the dodging? There's no trap.

If a To Hit Roll is the intent, then I agree 1 dice would be the obvious number. See, not so hard to say?
It is still house ruling and HIWPI, not RaW however.

The RAW is broken and the best solution is indeed to go with the most logical RAI/House rule of 1 die To Hit roll per attempted manifestation. That is a house rule, but so is presuming an automatic hit. I believe that the 1 roll per To Hit is the superior solution, because it matches the spirit of the Witchfire rule whereas an automatic hit does not. p.27 only talks about always rolling To Hit. It never talks about automatic hits.

JinxDragon wrote:God In Action,
I can not see how the Results from the To Hit portion of the instructions matter, but before people start misquoting that, allow me to explain:

I'm still on the fence over the whole thing because the Rule as Written are completely ******, honestly the only true answer we can ever give is 'stuffed if we know.'

However, I did take the time to look over a few Focused Witchfire entries and the Formatting used is a large piece of the puzzle for me. That piece informs me that the problem is far more extensive then profiles which lack critical details needed to Resolve them during a Shooting Sequence. What very few people realize, the fact every Power has additional instructions needed to be followed to Resolve them is the other side of the same problem. The vast majority of these additional instructions have no place within the default Shooting Sequence, there is no Step which states 'Resolve Powers now' before the Sequence ends. This wouldn't be much of an issue if we had further instructions telling how to modify the Sequence, but the very fact this thread comes up almost weekly should be indication that we have no such instructions.

That leaves me with just this question:
If the Power can not be Resolved as part of the Shooting Sequence, why would the result of a Step from that sequence change the Resolution?

Because the shooting sequence is directly prior to the resolution of the psychic power, the To Hit part of the rules for Witchfire is talked about first on p.27. That leads to the conclusion that we're supposed to roll To Hit first. Why are are rolling To Hit? To see if the power misses before being resolved, in which case end sequence. The p.27 rule even goes on to say to resolve To Wound and Wound Allocation based on the results of the To Hit roll. Just because Psychic Shriek lacks a To Wound step, that doesn't mean it lacks a To Hit step. It's exactly as if To Wound has been replaced by taking a Ld Test.

SaJeel wrote:
It is one power so it must roll one time. So that makes one roll to hit when i try to manifest the power

Again, no rule says that.

but... and here is the big butt, with my solution that doesnt even matter, because you never reach the roll to hit, the power resolves before that

This however, I think deserves looking more into.

There is just one stage at this point of the Psychic Sequence (step 5 Resolve the Power). This is normally broken down further to a shooting sequence.
Now it's an assumption that the effect of Psychic shriek is similar damaging effect of a weapon - that it is resolved last, it's the end result of an attack, if you get my meaning.

Food for thought at least.

 grendel083 wrote:

SaJeel wrote:
It is one power so it must roll one time. So that makes one roll to hit when i try to manifest the power

Again, no rule says that.

but... and here is the big butt, with my solution that doesnt even matter, because you never reach the roll to hit, the power resolves before that

This however, I think deserves looking more into.

There is just one stage at this point of the Psychic Sequence (step 5 Resolve the Power). This is normally broken down further to a shooting sequence.
Now it's an assumption that the effect of Psychic shriek is similar damaging effect of a weapon - that it is resolved last, it's the end result of an attack, if you get my meaning.

Food for thought at least.

I think that a good piece of evidence that resolving the effect of the psychic power is the very last step to the sequence is that nothing comes after it. Once you find out if Wounds are received, or a Glance suffered, there is nothing left to do. That shows it is the final step, therefore rolling To Hit comes prior to resolving the psychic power because it's impossible to have multiple final steps.

So, because of this, the only way to bypass the To Hit roll is to ignore the instruction to follow that step. The RAW break happens here, because we are then not told explicitly how many To Hit rolls to take per manifestation. The best house rule solution is to presume one To Hit roll.

Grendel083,
Indeed, the previous posts on this matter have been nothing more then 'my House Rule is better then yours' and the last thread on this matter was closed because of it.

The simple truth is:
Whenever a Written Rule is clearly broken, any solution put forth is just as correct as any other solution.

We should feel free to disagree with someone's House Ruled solution, but that disagreement does not need to be more then a single post stating 'I find X to be a better solution.' Should anyone feel the need to continue an argument over which House Rule is better more then a post or two, my advise would be to close the thread down immediately and do something else for a while. Such debates always devolve into an argument along the lines of 'no, I am right... no I am right....' until a moderator locks them down. Very likely that another lock will be forth coming though, doubtful the people who partake in such an argument are going to stop simply because I point out it is a pointless endeavor.

 God In Action wrote:


Why would the Ld test occur before the To Hit roll? Surely: 1. declare target. 2. take psychic test. 3. deny the witch. 4. To Hit. 5. Ld Test. 6. Resolve wounds.
The method for resolving a Witchfire test places the To Hit roll before the effect of the psychic power. In an unambiguous example- you wouldn't work out the effects of being hit by Smite before you had rolled to see if it hit. Likewise, why would you work out the effects of Psychic Shriek or Overload before rolling to see if it hit?

The second sentence about the intention of there being a chance to miss: I am arguing that the emphasis on To Hit rolls in the Witchfire rules is evidence of the intended meaning being that a To Hit roll should always be taken before a psychic power is cast, which would then be failed if the To Hit roll missed.

The word target doesn't have anything to do with automatic hits. An enemy unit is a target of a normal shooting attack, just because that enemy units is the target doesn't make all shots hit automatically, or not need to roll To Hit. So no I don't see that you could just as easily say Target = intention of automatic hit. 'Target' has literally no connection to automatic hits, in either rules or language.

But the most important thing here is, if I've understood correctly, your interpretation is that you do not need to roll To Hit with Psychic Shriek or Overload, because the effect of the psychic power is resolved before the To Hit roll?

I'll start backwards, by addressing you last statement first, and thanks for responding! Yes you have understood me correctly.

Correct the word target has nothing to do with auto hits, infact auto hits don't exist in the game
"Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit,
there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses." And i realize why this idea is so dam hard to swallow at first glance.

Ok im gonna try to break down my interpretation into points so each one can be discussed, and so it'll be easier to say, " i disagree with #3"

1) You can have a targeted unit/model
So by this i simply mean that targeted, is a state, just falling back, hit, and wounded are all states that a unit/model can be in
2) you ressolve affects as soon as possible,
So by this i mean if a rule states "a model hit must take an initative test" the initative test is taken as soon as the model is hit.
3) In the shooting sequence as outlined in the rules step 2 is choose a target, once the target is chosen that unit/model becomes the targeted unit
4) The psychic abilities in question interact with the targeted model, and therefore the ability triggers at step 2 of the shooting sequence
for reference this is the shooting sequence as taken from the BrB

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

SaJeel wrote:
It is one power so it must roll one time. So that makes one roll to hit when i try to manifest the power

Again, no rule says that.

but... and here is the big butt, with my solution that doesnt even matter, because you never reach the roll to hit, the power resolves before that

This however, I think deserves looking more into.

There is just one stage at this point of the Psychic Sequence (step 5 Resolve the Power). This is normally broken down further to a shooting sequence.
Now it's an assumption that the effect of Psychic shriek is similar damaging effect of a weapon - that it is resolved last, it's the end result of an attack, if you get my meaning.

Food for thought at least.

I do indeed get your meaning, and that is the problem, but if a psy ability says "models hit take a initative test test" don't you take the initative test as soon as the models are hit, or do you try to wound them, fail to do soe because the psy power doesnt have strength and then make the model take an ini test

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I quoted rules that indicate one is the unstated default.

Indicated and unstated. So not RaW? Got it.
Why is it so hard to just say "yes"? You are proposing 1 dice in your house rule.
The last thread would have been 10 pages shorter had you just given a straight answer, why the dodging? There's no trap.

If a To Hit Roll is the intent, then I agree 1 dice would be the obvious number. See, not so hard to say?
It is still house ruling and HIWPI, not RaW however.

Huh? There is rules justification for taking one as the unstated default. There is no justification for taking -1, 0, or 1000 or "chocolate"

Some justification trumps no justification.

I will proceed to use rules to justify how I resolve Psychic Shriek and such an approach is better than an approach that does not justify what it does with rules.

SaJeel wrote:

 God In Action wrote:


Why would the Ld test occur before the To Hit roll? Surely: 1. declare target. 2. take psychic test. 3. deny the witch. 4. To Hit. 5. Ld Test. 6. Resolve wounds.
The method for resolving a Witchfire test places the To Hit roll before the effect of the psychic power. In an unambiguous example- you wouldn't work out the effects of being hit by Smite before you had rolled to see if it hit. Likewise, why would you work out the effects of Psychic Shriek or Overload before rolling to see if it hit?

The second sentence about the intention of there being a chance to miss: I am arguing that the emphasis on To Hit rolls in the Witchfire rules is evidence of the intended meaning being that a To Hit roll should always be taken before a psychic power is cast, which would then be failed if the To Hit roll missed.

The word target doesn't have anything to do with automatic hits. An enemy unit is a target of a normal shooting attack, just because that enemy units is the target doesn't make all shots hit automatically, or not need to roll To Hit. So no I don't see that you could just as easily say Target = intention of automatic hit. 'Target' has literally no connection to automatic hits, in either rules or language.

But the most important thing here is, if I've understood correctly, your interpretation is that you do not need to roll To Hit with Psychic Shriek or Overload, because the effect of the psychic power is resolved before the To Hit roll?

I'll start backwards, by addressing you last statement first, and thanks for responding! Yes you have understood me correctly.

Correct the word target has nothing to do with auto hits, infact auto hits don't exist in the game
"Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit,
there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses." And i realize why this idea is so dam hard to swallow at first glance.

Ok im gonna try to break down my interpretation into points so each one can be discussed, and so it'll be easier to say, " i disagree with #3"

1) You can have a targeted unit/model
So by this i simply mean that targeted, is a state, just falling back, hit, and wounded are all states that a unit/model can be in
2) you ressolve affects as soon as possible,
So by this i mean if a rule states "a model hit must take an initative test" the initative test is taken as soon as the model is hit.
3) In the shooting sequence as outlined in the rules step 2 is choose a target, once the target is chosen that unit/model becomes the targeted unit
4) The psychic abilities in question interact with the targeted model, and therefore the ability triggers at step 2 of the shooting sequence
for reference this is the shooting sequence as taken from the BrB

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

SaJeel wrote:
It is one power so it must roll one time. So that makes one roll to hit when i try to manifest the power

Again, no rule says that.

but... and here is the big butt, with my solution that doesnt even matter, because you never reach the roll to hit, the power resolves before that

This however, I think deserves looking more into.

There is just one stage at this point of the Psychic Sequence (step 5 Resolve the Power). This is normally broken down further to a shooting sequence.
Now it's an assumption that the effect of Psychic shriek is similar damaging effect of a weapon - that it is resolved last, it's the end result of an attack, if you get my meaning.

Food for thought at least.

I do indeed get your meaning, and that is the problem, but if a psy ability says "models hit take a initative test test" don't you take the initative test as soon as the models are hit, or do you try to wound them, fail to do soe because the psy power doesnt have strength and then make the model take an ini test

SaJeel - you will find that if you follow your line of thinking that you come up to the To Wound roll on successful hits and you are missing critical info on how to resolve that To Wound roll. You are missing a Str characteristic and don't have permission to skip the To Wound roll. You come to effectively a place you have to house rule permission to skip in order to continue.

By their wording, rolls To Wound also determine WHETHER or IF a hit causes damage so successfully completing the step is required to actually cause damage.

So, to summarise: The rules are a mess. Discuss with your opponent.