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WG can't get into Falcons. Even if you kill them down to 3 due to the Falcons capacity, it still has a rule preventing them from hopping in.

I haven't fielded a second Serpent since last year, and haven't fielded a WK. I still enjoy Eldar a lot, but my troops die easily once people realize how fragile per cost they are.

Makumba wrote:
Didn't the last heat in UK had 13 placments in top 32 ?Doesn't that kind of a prove that they are better then other armies.

Didn't the last BAO have four Space Marines in the top 5?

I don't see the relevance, though. There's no question that Eldar are god-tier this edition. What's funny, is that there's only two units that make the codex an uphill slog for players to beat (wave serpents, jetbikes), yet people will get crushed by lists that don't even spam those units and then decry the army as being overpowered.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Didn't the last heat in UK had 13 placments in top 32 ?Doesn't that kind of a prove that they are better then other armies.

Didn't the last BAO have four Space Marines in the top 5?

I don't see the relevance, though. There's no question that Eldar are god-tier this edition. What's funny, is that there's only two units that make the codex an uphill slog for players to beat (wave serpents, jetbikes), yet people will get crushed by lists that don't even spam those units and then decry the army as being overpowered.

I still think that without the Wraithknight, Jetbikes, and Wave Serpents, the overall codex is on a much higher power level than every other book. They have a lot of good armor saves, fast units, good BS across the board, access to a lot of twin-linked, good Psychic powers, the toughest MCs in the game, a gak ton of low AP weapons, high initative, good melee units, a lot of flavor across the army, special rules on almost everything, the list goes on. Hence, the WS being OP argument aside, I hate how the entire book is on a whole different level as everyone else is.

Is the Wraithlord really on a whole 'nother level than, say, a DK? T8 is really good, but 3 HP 3+ with no invuln vs 2+/5++ t6 with more wounds and 12" move? 6" vs 12" move is huge.

Their 'good BS across the board' is BS4. The same as most MEQ books.

They pay Marine prices for 4+ on t3 models. Several 3+ t3 models exist, but cost more than most 3+ t4 models.

Their Runes of Fate are good, but so is telepathy. Farseers might be cheaper per WC than Libbys or Sorcs, but they have much lower stats (ID'd by any plasma!). And they have nothing like either Psychic Hood or Spell Familiar.

For heavy weapons:
Lascannon ~= Brightlance
EML ~= ML
StarCannon ~= Plasma Cannon
SL or SC ~= Assault Cannon

Nothing outrageous there.

For foot weapons:
-Shurikat loses to Boltgun and even Lasgun. Heavier fire, but 12" shorter range, on t3 5+
-Avenger Shurikat - better than a boltgun usually, but on a t3 4+ model that costs MEQ prices
-Wraith cannon/scythe - for 30- ppm, 12" range, should be devestating. Deserves its AP.

I5 does help, but at s3t3 non-melee still lose horribly to MEQ per cost, and the melee options, even those designed to kill Marines don't excel at it. Wraith are not i5, and cost a ton.

Good melee units? Scorpions are about equal to ASM. Wraith are similar to Termites. Banshees, Harlies, and Storm Guardians are bad. Shining Spears are 25 ppm, for a1, and only good s/ap on the first round.

There are a lot of special rules. Biggest one is Bladestorm. Without bladestorm, naked Marines beat Avengers in every possible engagement. With it, DAs win at 12-18", but lose everywhere else.

If you think of Eldar as GEQ prices for those rules, yeah, they would be broken. But they pay MEQ prices for GEQ survival, and need their special rules to compare to MEQ.

If you remove the WS, WK, and bikes, I really dont see the problem.

Guardians are also cheap, and have an extremely durable Fast skimmer transport to get them where they need to go (Not talking about how "op" the SH is, this is just the transport aspect of it). A DA costs the same a Marine, sure, and is less survivable. But will kill infantry like no one's business, and can then run away. Starcannon I don't really think is quite the same as a plasma cannon, but if we're comparing, it has 2 shots, weaker S, but no gets hot. A plasma cannon can kill it's own shooter. Scatter Laser is slightly worse than an Assault cannon, sure, but Laserlock. Not even on a WS, but anything that has it (Which, a good amount of things can take them, and they're cheap). How many things can take Assault Cannons? Probably not as many that can take a SL. Also, didn't you say the EML has Pinning? And had a better alternate mode of firing? I'd rather have that than a missile launcher.

And are the Wraithguard with those weapons only 30 PPM? Because I would kill for those. I pay 40 for lower toughness and no guns.

The EML also costs twice as much. A Dire Avenger kills infantry the same as a Space Marine except they need to be closer. They run away D6 which isn't going to help in getting away. You also pay for a 2+ save with AP2 S8 weapons and an invul. Wish I had that on my S4 model with a 12" gun.

pm713 wrote:
The EML also costs twice as much. A Dire Avenger kills infantry the same as a Space Marine except they need to be closer. They run away D6 which isn't going to help in getting away. You also pay for a 2+ save with AP2 S8 weapons and an invul. Wish I had that on my S4 model with a 12" gun.

I don't play space marines. I wish I could have an infantry unit with 2+ saves as well, but alas...

Oh well. Not sure why I thought you played Space Marines sorry about that.

pm713 wrote:
Oh well. Not sure why I thought you played Space Marines sorry about that.

Sall good. I'm a proud Xenos player. I just hope Lychguard get better in the next codex. I want a reason to use them.

Hard to believe that Battle Focus hasn't been mentioned here as one of the reasons why Eldar are so good. An army wide MSM? One of the best abilities out there. And it really mitigates the range disadvantage of shuri-weapons vs. bolters and the like. Stuff like Fire Dragons are incredibly strong because of Battle Focus, and it is a big help even on basic troops like Guardians and DAs.

Asmodas wrote:
Hard to believe that Battle Focus hasn't been mentioned here as one of the reasons why Eldar are so good. An army wide MSM? One of the best abilities out there. And it really mitigates the range disadvantage of shuri-weapons vs. bolters and the like. Stuff like Fire Dragons are incredibly strong because of Battle Focus, and it is a big help even on basic troops like Guardians and DAs.

Yes, it is obnoxious, but I feel it's on par with the fact that they are still only toughness 3. Which is why I feel you can't just compare them to tactical marines as far as who would survive and ppm and the like. Battle Focus is a very good ability, which makes them among the most mobile units in the game.

Eldar are one of the most mobile armies in the game. Second only to Dark Eldar, imo. However, they lack access to many deployment options. For instance, their only deep strikers are Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders. So nothing like podded Sternies, Termies, or Land Speeders in that regard.

Battle focus is a powerful ability, but the range differences are still quite huge. Guardians are only a little more than GEQ prices with a good gun inside 12", but they die to even incidental fire quite quickly.

In your example of using a Serpent to get Guardians in range, the same could be said of using a droppod to get Marines in range. And Pods are cheap enough to get a bunch, whereas Serpents cost more than the GUardian squad inside them. They can beat Marines if they get the first salvo, but they loose heavily to Marines any other way. And the only way to get that is with a Serpent and favorable conditions (have to expose rear armor and/or move into charge range the turn before. And then you're spending over 200 points to kill 4 marines. And if it's a 10-man squad, the remaining 6 then kill 6 Guardians. All this assumes Battle Focus.

As for DAs, the only way DAs can keep between the 12-18" range is to battlefocus away after firing. Otherwise, Marines can walk into 12" range and destroy them in rapid fire range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose what I'm saying is, try out a footdar list?

Well, if the enemy doesn't have the right tools to hurt an Eldar army, its going to be an uphill battle for him.
With hurt against Serpents I mean the Lanchester square law used in WW2.
It basically says if the enemy doubles (2) its tanks, you need to four-fold (2^2) your heavy weapons against them.

Personally, i think that eldar are a good codex the moment you make serpents reasonable.

Wraithknights are so good cause of serpents.