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Zsolt wrote:
Also if I'm right, chapter tactics can only be used once. So that's a one shot tank hunter. Don't forget that Pask is in a squadron, so he's shooting the tank closest to him, so you can take a "cheap" LR to give some more HP to Pask. Also squadron mates can shoot through each other as if they weren't there.

Pask is the best HQ choice, because he can effectively wreck everything (that is within 24", sadly).

Edit: If you have AP1/2 with ignore cover, it doesn't matter how good is that bolstered ruin or when does he get it. Btw you get ruin cover save just for standing in them, even you are shot at by a unit that is also in the same ruin with nothing in between the two of you.

Edit2: if the techmarine and the gun forms a unit, when shooting at it it uses the most numerous T in the unit, and the higher one if there's a tie. So the techmarine will have T7 while the gun lives. All models will use their own armor save though.

Only some chapter tactics are limited to once per game (ultramarines doctrines, ravenguards stealth on first turn). The rest work the whole game.

 vipoid wrote:


A model in ruins *always* receives the cover save - regardless of whether or not it's actually obscured.

Didn't they get rid of area terrain in favor of true los?

 koooaei wrote:

Didn't they get rid of area terrain in favor of true los?

Ruins are an exception for some reason. I have no idea why.

I'd add Primaris psykers are awesome (Prescience granted, possibly ignore cover psy (so you can have a different order on that unit, like tank hunter + ignore cover psy), they are just not the cheapest sources of warp charges (the initial one, the upgrade is pretty cheap). So I wouldn't drop both of them, but maybe replace one for a CCS with astropath.

They increase the LD of the unit, making your orders more effective (add vox caster to the blob & the ccs too). Full lascannon blobs with prescience and ignore cover (either psy or orders) are pretty awesome. So are autocannon blobs (eats waveserpents for breakfast).

get some forgeworld artillary carridges, 75 points, barrage, tough 7 str 9 ap 3, will mince 90% of his army and can pick out characters, and be ordered to ignore cover.

every good guard player has a few lascannons too... order the lascannons to ignore cover, insta gib the tech marine or kill the gun.

I forget the name of the new 65 pt mortar tank guard got,

with 2-3 of those, you can force a lot of wounds and they are great for lots of other opponents


vendettas/valkyries with a special weapons squad with melta can move up the feild fast enough to engage the thunderfire cannon.

OK, here is my issue, a lot to do with your list. You have quite a few wasted points. His list is ok, but nothing special.
First and most importantly, you have no ability to get anywhere. Invest in a Scion platoon. Command squad with plasma guns, a scion squad with two plasma, two scion squads with two meltas. Deepstrike these guys in to take out his important stuff or at least take the heat off your main line.

Secondly, get rid of the snipers in the PCS. In the absence of transport either give them grenade launchers or flamers as an anti drop pod team. Flamers are highly underrated as a mass wound causer when used in numbers.

Get rid of the lascannons in the squads. Never put a heavy weapon in a squad that should be moving after the first turn. Give them melta or flamers.

You need more bodies. Figure out what you can cut to do this, my vote is the Manticore. I haven't looked, you get conscripts right? There's your cheap meat shield. Remember to space them out, 2 inch coherency, use it. If he only has one drop pod then you only need them for the first turn anyway.

Once you eliminate the melta squad and one or two of his big heavy shooters, the rest of your army can clean up. He wont have the fire power to eliminate you.

Col. Dash wrote:
OK, here is my issue, a lot to do with your list. You have quite a few wasted points. His list is ok, but nothing special.
First and most importantly, you have no ability to get anywhere. Invest in a Scion platoon. Command squad with plasma guns, a scion squad with two plasma, two scion squads with two meltas. Deepstrike these guys in to take out his important stuff or at least take the heat off your main line.

Secondly, get rid of the snipers in the PCS. In the absence of transport either give them grenade launchers or flamers as an anti drop pod team. Flamers are highly underrated as a mass wound causer when used in numbers.

Get rid of the lascannons in the squads. Never put a heavy weapon in a squad that should be moving after the first turn. Give them melta or flamers.

You need more bodies. Figure out what you can cut to do this, my vote is the Manticore. I haven't looked, you get conscripts right? There's your cheap meat shield. Remember to space them out, 2 inch coherency, use it. If he only has one drop pod then you only need them for the first turn anyway.

Once you eliminate the melta squad and one or two of his big heavy shooters, the rest of your army can clean up. He wont have the fire power to eliminate you.

Haev weapon blobs are pretty valid, they just do better with prescience support.

In a list where that is the purpose I would tend to agree, but in his list they are acting like bubble wrap and he should probably only have two squads on each vehicle to prevent the melta bonus I think. After that they need to be moving up field to take terrain features and capture objectives, while the tanks and scions hammer things.

If I were the OP I would drop the Sentinels, the LR Exterminator, the melta bombs, the snipers and the Manticore.

I would then add two Infantry squads with Lascannons, a CCS, give both those units a Vox, and ally in Coteaz to get a better chance at seizing, and scaring him from dropping his pod down too close to Coteaz (who will of course be close to Pask)

Lascannons with Fire on my target!, especially if prescienced, should take out his Thunderfire pretty easily provided it is within LOS.

I'm surprised that no one has asked this yet, but what fortification does your opponent bring to your games? also, keep on mind that Bolster Defences cannot buff a purchased structure (P. 92 SM Codex, in Bolster Defences's desctiption).

Some other suggestions:

Pask and his loadout seem appropriate for taking on marines, the 24" is a bit of a danger zone.

I like the Sentinels with Plasma cannons, they are inexpensive and good against marines (BS 3 with templates helps as well).

I suggest not using lascannons in BS3 squads, only with Veterans, use autocannons if you feel you need a heavy weapon with reach.
I assume you will put a priest with the conscripts right? Makes for a good speedbump.
Yes, the sniper rifles are rather useless in the command squad, pick some good weapons to greet either drop pod (plasma or melta, consider heavy flamer).

Consider 3 Wyverns, some redundancy and a buckload of hits (covers more table space too!), remove the Manticore.
They are cheap and he would be hard-pressed to make-up his points killing those.

What role do you want the Exterminator to play? I tend to like the long range sniping, I would suggest remove the sponsons and change hull gun to lascannon (still BS3 but matches range). I tend to use that configuration in case of flyers. A plain-old Leman Russ Battletank with HB on hull I would prefer for marine killing in this case.

My two cents.

 Melior wrote:
I really hope someone can help me with this, because i am close to burning all my Miniatures. I do not have a problem loosing a game, but loosing EVERY game, and realising this during the first two rounds, gets really frustrating. So please, if anyone has suggestions...it might save this hobby for me.

PM me an easy to read list both for you and the opponent. I will use your army and do a battle report to see if i can figure out how to use it. There is a DEEP pool of excellent generals here and I can find one familiar with your usual foe who can play his list.

Deployment is so often the place where peoples armies fail. So tell me what your worst case scenario is for mission, terrain and so on and is and I will handicap myself in those ways as best i can emulate it. Perhaps seeing someone else play your list could help.

Also how you like to deploy would help.

 Jancoran wrote:
Also how you like to deploy would help.

frankly, it sounds like he likes to castle up. It only bites him in the behind because of the use of drop melta and thunderfire cannon.
a couple ideas:
play with reserves. Don't start everything on the table. one of the best ways to pull the teeth of a Drop Pod assault is to refuse to place any juicy targets.
play with inquisitors. servo skulls and Coteaz can be a thorn in your opponent's side.
play with assassins; a Callidus can mess with your opponent endlessly.

fair enuf but I can do a video battle report using his stuff and stick it on my Blog. It'll be a good way for him to visually see and hear advice when hes not in the thick of it himself.

I've often thought of doing experimets like this on my blog but haven't had an excuse but I'd be willing to make this my first "play someone elses army to give them advice instead of spewing rhetoric on Dakka" type thing.

=)

@ Jancoran: Playing his list

That sounds like an interesting idea, if you have the models. I would be interested in what you thought of playing someone else's list. And if you did a battle report, even better.

I prefer photo/text battle reports myself though.

I think this idea of your's may have merit. The basic info required would be a rough idea of a table set up, a good description of the challenges faced (i.e. backfield tech-marine in bolstered ruins with thunderfire cannon, poor LOS lanes),the army list, and if possible the opponents army list.

I think your idea may deserve it's own thread! After reading the tactics forum for quite some time it would be a rather refreshing approach over the tired old MathHammer tactica.

//edit below//

My bad earlier on the majority toughness for units. Been several weeks now working 6&6 watches, so I don't think I am really awake anymore LOL. I still stick by my opinion that overall the Plasma Scions are a better option than Melta Scions though, regardless of a slightly less chance to wound. If you scatter just right you get rapid fire, scatter outside 12" and you at least get single fire. And if you take him out, then you have more reach in the opponents back field.

You will note on my blog that i did just this for someone. Go look. In his case, I was illustrating how to play an army I have built FOR him, so he could see and not just read how I played it. but you will see the idea in action. and it is a videro battle report.

Tau vs. Eldar and Tau vs. Necrons. Check it out.

Batrep link

And also:

Oh no! ELDAR!!!

SpookyRuben wrote:
I still stick by my opinion that overall the Plasma Scions are a better option than Melta Scions though, regardless of a slightly less chance to wound.

Oh, I don't dispute that. Getting twice as many shots more than compensates for only wounding on 4s (compared to 2s for meltas).

 vipoid wrote:

SpookyRuben wrote:
I still stick by my opinion that overall the Plasma Scions are a better option than Melta Scions though, regardless of a slightly less chance to wound.

Oh, I don't dispute that. Getting twice as many shots more than compensates for only wounding on 4s (compared to 2s for meltas).

Meltas wound on 3-s. s8 vs t7

 koooaei wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

SpookyRuben wrote:
I still stick by my opinion that overall the Plasma Scions are a better option than Melta Scions though, regardless of a slightly less chance to wound.

Oh, I don't dispute that. Getting twice as many shots more than compensates for only wounding on 4s (compared to 2s for meltas).

Meltas wound on 3-s. s8 vs t7

So it does.

MEMO: Engage brain before posting.

Optimally you want both. Make a squad plasma, and anothe melta. He does have a Land raider on the board too the melta guys can kill before it flames blobs. Plasma squads and command squad can go after centurions.

A Vindicare Assassin may be helpful for taking out the thunderfire cannon?

It can pick out the tech marine and ignore the cover?

pastperfect wrote:
A Vindicare Assassin may be helpful for taking out the thunderfire cannon?

It can pick out the tech marine and ignore the cover?

And this too =)

We've completely forgotten bout assassins.

Ally CSM to get Baledrake to roast the tfc...lolz I cant believe I am suggesting this. You should try the assassin first then the drake.