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Wouldn't it then become a case of Basic V Advanced?
Basic being the Shooting Step 3 as listed, Advanced being Multiple Templates rule?

The reason I stated Multiple Templates Rule being Triggered upon the Flamer being selected to fire the rule states "If a unit is fire more then one shot with the Template type,... Once the number of hits from ALL templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal." Flamer, Combi-Flamer, Heavy Flamer, all in the same unit, all firing, all of the Template Type.

RAW requires a break in the normal shooting sequence with the Multiple Template rule, triggering all Template weapons. Intended or not, who knows.

I think, to me, what point more in the "all templates" rather than "grouped per type" is in:

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type,(...)"

It says that the "Unit" is firing more than one Shot. Not that "the weapon group" is firing more than one Shot. To me, the Multiple Template rule would need a different wording specifing that it is covering only the weapon group, and not "all Template shots of the Unit" which is how i'm reading it at the moment.

But i have to agree with Nos that "Basic V Advanced" needs a contradiction, and the Multiple Template rule does not contradict the "Choose your weapon step".

I'd add that RAI was probably to work like Blast weapons, as both usually works in similar ways, and that the grouping still applies... But RaW is very 50/50 at the moment...(for me)

Does this make it illegal not to fire all Template Weapons in a Shooting Sequence?
What happens if one can not be fired?

If it is the "Unit Firing" that triggers this Rule, then the above questions must be considered very carefully.

Added:
I need to remind people that 'Weapon Group" is not Official Game Workshop Terminology, it is just what we have coined to refer to the group of weapons nominated at Step 3. As far as the Rules are concerned, nominating a group of weapons does nothing more then create a number of 'Shots.' This is why I have pondered when the Multiple Template Rule triggers, as it does mention Shots and prior to this point we do not have any permission to generate 'Shots' with a Weapon. Grendel083's Interpertation is very useful however, as it does nothing more then negate the 'Nerf' that mixed-flamer Units would suffer under the 'Weapon Group' system.

There absolutely is a contradiction.

Step 3 in shooting calls for all weapons of the same name to fire at the same time.

Multiple Templates calls for all weapons of the Template Type to fire at the same time.

I'm not sure how there is no contradiction there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Does this make it illegal not to fire all Template Weapons in a Shooting Sequence?
What happens if one can not be fired?

If it is the "Unit Firing" that triggers this Rule, then the above questions must be considered very carefully.

The answer is no to your first question bc there are most definitely cases where some can fire and other can't. For the second Multiple Templates tells you "“resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template.” and Template Weapons tells you "“Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model’s unit). Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.”

edit: Previous sentence proved false by rereading Step 3 says "can fire" and Template Weaponsv have rules on when they can be used, there is no case where an illegality comes into play

CronikCRS,
One of the interesting things about the Shooting Sequence is how we go about not firing Weapons, it is something we don't even consider much but many players do not follow this Rule correctly. This mistake is understandable, as one would think that we nominate which Models will be firing next after we choose which Weapon is going to be fired. It is actually the other way around, naming the 'Weapon Group' automatically selects all Models as 'shooting.' We then choose which Models we do not want to fire, and obviously deselect the ones which can not legally do so, as part of Step 3. After this point any Models still selected can 'fire,' which does nothing more then generate a number of Shots....

So the question should have been worded as:
Can we deselect a Firing Model that is not part of the Weapon Group being fired?
- This is NOT a loaded question, this is a permission based system so....
Does Step 3 allow us to deselect Models that are not yet shooting if it does not specify either way?

Your question doesn't make much sense to me, if we selection a weapon to fire with template, then all of the template weapons become the selected "Weapon Group" moving from there we have rule provided on when and how these types of weapons fire, as i have posted previously, the permission you looking for as far as templates weapons go is:
1) following proper placement of the template, are you touching any friendly model? No.
2) is the model firing the weapon limited to firing snapshots this round? No.

if both answers are no, the weapon fires

CronikCRS,
Consider situations where both the Combi-Flamer and Flamer capable of firing, but one does not want to fire the Combi-Flamer.

The Multiple Template Rule, which is being used to group all Flamers together, occurs during Step 4.
The ability to deselect a Model from Firing occurs during Step 3 and it is debatable if it grants permission to deselect non-named Firing Models.
So how do we deselect the Combi-flamer from firing when the Flamers do, if it is shown that we only have permission to deselect from the Weapon Group?

at this point it's probably relevant to point out that when you fire the 'combi' part ofa combi weapon the weapon 'counts as' whatever type of weapon the combi part is.

in the example being used, if you were to fire a combi-flamer as the flamer part, then for this shooting step the weapon 'is' a flamer and will fire at the same time as any other flamers in the unit.

p176 of the hardback RB.

In the case of Combi-Weapon you have to nominate which profile it is shooting the same way you have to with Special Ammunitions on Sternguard.

Combi-Weapon - " A model armed with a combi-weapon can choose to fire either the boltgun, or the secondary weapon. You cannot fire both in the same turn.(...)"

"The main and secondary weapons of a combi-weapon fire at the same time as all other similarly named weapons in that unit."

Flamer and Combi flamer Fire at the same time, regardless of any interpretation.

Flamer and Heavy flamer (Sternguard for example) will make for better examples for this debate.

 CronikCRS wrote:
In the case of Combi-Weapon you have to nominate which profile it is shooting the same way you have to with Special Ammunitions on Sternguard.

Combi-Weapon - " A model armed with a combi-weapon can choose to fire either the boltgun, or the secondary weapon. You cannot fire both in the same turn.(...)"

nice use of selective quoting from the rulebook, how about we keep reading the whole sentence shall we?

'each combi-weapon has only one secondary weapon. the main and secondary weapons of a combi-weapon fire at the same time as all other similarly names weapons in that unit. for example the 'boltgun' part of a combi-weapon fires at the same time as all other boltguns in the unit.'

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 CronikCRS wrote:
In the case of Combi-Weapon you have to nominate which profile it is shooting the same way you have to with Special Ammunitions on Sternguard.

Combi-Weapon - " A model armed with a combi-weapon can choose to fire either the boltgun, or the secondary weapon. You cannot fire both in the same turn.(...)"

nice use of selective quoting from the rulebook, how about we keep reading the whole sentence shall we?

'each combi-weapon has only one secondary weapon. the main and secondary weapons of a combi-weapon fire at the same time as all other similarly names weapons in that unit. for example the 'boltgun' part of a combi-weapon fires at the same time as all other boltguns in the unit.'

There was no "selective quote" made the question presented was what happens in the case of a Combi-flamer and Flamer firing, the first sentence pretty clearly shows that the shooting player has to choose which profile the weapon uses. Second I added to show that both profiles cant be used at the same time.

The rest of the rule just reinforces what has already been stated, boltguns fire with boltguns and template all fire at the same time when a template weapon is chosen, in the case of a Combi-Flamer a weapon profile must first be chosen before you can fire it.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Multiple Template Rule, which is being used to group all Flamers together, occurs during Step 4.

 grendel083 wrote:
Flamer and Heavy flamer (Sternguard for example) will make for better examples for this debate.

Grendel- I agree since they are clearly two different Template weapons.

Jinx- Since Multiple Templates tells us to fire templates one at a time until hits from all templates have been determined, the rule would have to trigger at Step 3, if it triggered at Step 4 there would be no way for a Heavy Flamer to be able to go off at the same time as a Flamer, which is what Multiple Templates says happens.

If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above...

Not only do the instructions referenced by the 'as described above' specifically trigger during Step 4, if I recall correctly, but the Rule itself also mentions Shots repetitively throughout. Step 3 nominates which weapons are going to be shooting, so it is not possible for there to be shots till after we have resolved this Step. Unless you are resolving the templates before we reach the To Hit step in your interpretation, then we do not yet have shots for it to trigger with.

The question has always been:
Does firing a single Template, within a Unit containing multiple Template Weapons, force all the Template weapons to be Resolved at the same time as the first shot?
If so, how do we nominate a Firing Model to not fire if it is not part of the Weapon Group which is shooting to begin with?

If it's forcing you to fire all template weapons at the same time, then would that not be your weapon group?

Instead of "Boltguns" you instead effectively get "Template Weapons".

In order to fire any weapon it must first be chosen in Step 3, correct?

if you can answer yes to this question then how can you say there is no trigger at this step?

Part of the problem is when you get into the "Steps" your talking about models firing and not the unit.

Grendel083,
Actually no, as the Multiple Template Rule does not mention anything about 'Weapon Groups' how can it change what the notated weapon during Step 3 actual was?

Your interpretation grants permission to resolve the other Templates independent of the 'Weapon Group,' so it does not need to address or alter what group of weapons was nominated to fire. Again, this is likely due to the fact that 'Weapon Group' is something of our invention and not Game Workshop, they simply state the nominated weapons shoot and then refer to shots during Step 4. As the Rules telling us to select which Models are not shooting is part of Step 3, does it apply to Weapons which are granted permission to fire through alternative Rules?

I must be missing something, or maybe it's just late and I'm too tired, but I don't see any difference in the outcome either way. As long as you keep track of how many hits are twin-linked, how are the results going to be any different if you do your templates first, last, all together, or one at a time? You're still getting the same number of hits, right?

Because in the current rules, you completely resolve a weapon groupin a unit before moving on to the next.

For example, you fire your bolters, kill 8 enemy.
You then fire your meltaguns, killing one more.
And now your Flamer is out of range, because the closest models are all dead.

 troa wrote:
Does it say "when firing multiple identical template weapons"? Or does it say "when firing template weapons"?

There's your answer.

But what gives you permission to fire multiple weapon types at the same time? Nothing. The rule says when you are firing multiple templates. It doesn't say you can ignore the bit where you fire weapon groups one at a time. In fact, you don't even have permission to decide which other template weapons are being fired before you resolve this attack. At step one, how many template weapons are being fired... who knows?

If you follow the rule, but fire them in groups instead, you end up with the normal sequence. Nothing changed, rules done nothing.
However, the rule calls out all templates, not groups of templates.

Not true. If this rule didn't exist, you could argue that you should use a single template then multiply the number of hits by the number of flamers in the squad or other crazy things like that. (Normal weapons don't require you to determine how many enemy models are in LoS of each of your models in your squad, you can kill anyone that's in LoS of any of the shooters.) If the rule asked you to resolve the templates one at a time, that would screw over units with lots of similarly named templates.

Mavnas wrote:
Not true. If this rule didn't exist, you could argue that you should use a single template then multiply the number of hits by the number of flamers in the squad or other crazy things like that.

Not at all. The normal rules for firing a Flamer require you to place the template touchnig the base of the firing model.

To multiply the hits breaks this rule. Just as you roll to hit for each firing gun, you place the template for each firing template, it's the only way to do it for multiple templates and not break any rules.

Trot is quite correct, if it means groups then the rule does exactly nothing. You're left with normal sequence that you should be following anyway. And the rule makes no mention of groups.

I would say the combi is up to you, since you don't have to fire it at all. I tend to fire my plasmas first, and then, if no one blew up their hands yet, maybe I'll fire the combi plasma. Rolling 6 plasma shots at once tends to leave me with a dead sergeant every time...

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I would say the combi is up to you, since you don't have to fire it at all. I tend to fire my plasmas first, and then, if no one blew up their hands yet, maybe I'll fire the combi plasma. Rolling 6 plasma shots at once tends to leave me with a dead sergeant every time...

But the plasma part of the Combi is fired at the same time as other plasma guns. It's the same group.
Firing it in a seperate group doesn't follow the rules.

Yes, but you are allowed to roll them separate grendal since one model is a character and must be differentiated.

I usually just roll different color dice, but not everyone does that.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yes, but you are allowed to roll them separate grendal since one model is a character and must be differentiated.

I usually just roll different color dice, but not everyone does that.

But you cannot fire the other plasma, see how they do, then decide to fire the sarges combi plasma, as the weapon group "plasma gun" has had its chance

Sometimes i wish gw had a programmist writing up their rules for a sequence and running the program to see results. Than it'd be much easier to find out all the logical bugs in there before the release.

 BlackTalos wrote:
"If a weapon can fire in more than one mode, or can fire more than one type of ammo, select a weapon mode/ammo type – treat weapons firing different modes/ammo types as differently named weapons."

For the Combi-weapon part, does no one think the above applies?

Fire the "Flamer mode" of the Combi = / = "Standard" Flamer

Or do Combi-weapons not fire "in more than one mode"?

So when firing a combi-plas as a Plasmagun should it not go in the Plasmagun pool?

I think that the rulebook states that combi-weapons go into the separate pool with non-combi-weapons as they have different profiles (name).