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Martel732 wrote:

 eskimo wrote:
Bolters are far from rubbish, people just be greedy for easy wins. I'm so happy my new army i've chosen to build (BA) is getting listed as "mid lvl army at best".

I wish this were true. But it's not. After suffering through 2nd ed, I recognize useless weaponry when I see it.

It is rather useless.
Marines are often used to babysit one or two special weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a combination. 3+ doesn't hold up like it used to AND tac marines have no offensive punch. They're bad on both ends.

mm tbh the only thing stopping me from fielding scouts instead at every turn is the fact that they cant take as many weapon options and they cant take a dedicated transport in my army

 HillyKarma wrote:
I seriously think bolters just need to have rending at no extra cost. I think it's kind of dumb when my infantry can't even put up a fight in most shooting matches.

You can't add rending to all bolters though, it would make some units completely out of hand. 5 point rending acolytes?

As a rule for all MARINES, sure, but you can't put it on the bolter. Call it "precision marksmanship" or something.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 eskimo wrote:
Bolters are far from rubbish, people just be greedy for easy wins. I'm so happy my new army i've chosen to build (BA) is getting listed as "mid lvl army at best".

I wish this were true. But it's not. After suffering through 2nd ed, I recognize useless weaponry when I see it.

It is rather useless.
Marines are often used to babysit one or two special weapons.

Pretty much.
Granted Grey Hunters back in the day could get podded near an objective in cover and yell "come at me bro", but in general this is true.

Cover should go back to BS modifiers to make that 3+ save worth it

Bolters need special rules, or marines do. Or both

 Carnage43 wrote:

 HillyKarma wrote:
I seriously think bolters just need to have rending at no extra cost. I think it's kind of dumb when my infantry can't even put up a fight in most shooting matches.

You can't add rending to all bolters though, it would make some units completely out of hand. 5 point rending acolytes?

As a rule for all MARINES, sure, but you can't put it on the bolter. Call it "precision marksmanship" or something.

i think the solution is not to add rending but to give marines rellentless or change bolters to salvo 2/3 storm bolters to 3/5. HB also 3/5 but 5 str ap4.

 eskimo wrote:
Bolters are far from rubbish, people just be greedy for easy wins. I'm so happy my new army i've chosen to build (BA) is getting listed as "mid lvl army at best".

BA has a lot more going for it than an army using the Vanilla SM codex

 Xenomancers wrote:
They have had that exact weapon profile since I started playing over 10 years ago. It was pretty bad then in 4th-ish. It's probably even worse now. It would be a great weapon for guardsman but on a marine it's an absolute waste of 14 points.

Agreed. Bolters aren't that bad. They're actually pretty great at shredding 5+ or lower armored troops (Most Guardsmen, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos Cultists). As a Daemon/Guard player, I can attest to that. The problem is that basic marines are a bit too expensive for the current metagame. That means less bodies on the tabletop, making them pack less punch and be easier to kill. They should either drop them a couple points, or give power armour a 5+ invul save.

 HillyKarma wrote:

 eskimo wrote:
Bolters are far from rubbish, people just be greedy for easy wins. I'm so happy my new army i've chosen to build (BA) is getting listed as "mid lvl army at best".

BA has a lot more going for it than an army using the Vanilla SM codex

Not really.

 HillyKarma wrote:

 eskimo wrote:
Bolters are far from rubbish, people just be greedy for easy wins. I'm so happy my new army i've chosen to build (BA) is getting listed as "mid lvl army at best".

BA has a lot more going for it than an army using the Vanilla SM codex

BA wants to charge- would have to fire bolt pistols to do that. That means less shots. ehhh. Rapid fire is a pretty dumb mechanic unless you are a trench fighter like a guardsman or a fire warrior.

Or relentless.

Man it makes no sense really.

Listening to the audio book for unremembered empire and apparently 10 doods with boltguns can nearly take out a primarch. and these things hitting a basicily 2+ armor save will T5+ are able to nearly put girlyman down.

From a fluff standpoint it should be shred and rending since the things are mini frag missiles shot out of a heavy machine gun.

 fallinq wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They have had that exact weapon profile since I started playing over 10 years ago. It was pretty bad then in 4th-ish. It's probably even worse now. It would be a great weapon for guardsman but on a marine it's an absolute waste of 14 points.

Agreed. Bolters aren't that bad. They're actually pretty great at shredding 5+ or lower armored troops (Most Guardsmen, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos Cultists). As a Daemon/Guard player, I can attest to that. The problem is that basic marines are a bit too expensive for the current metagame. That means less bodies on the tabletop, making them pack less punch and be easier to kill. They should either drop them a couple points, or give power armour a 5+ invul save.

Power armor 5+ invo term armor 4+ invo. Now we are talking real stuff.

It won't help in this meta, really. I actually lose the majority of my marines to S6/7 shooting that doesn't penetrate the armor. They just get hit with mass wounds and I can't save them all. The prevalence of AP 2 just makes more expensive marine variants like sanguinary guard useless.

 fallinq wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They have had that exact weapon profile since I started playing over 10 years ago. It was pretty bad then in 4th-ish. It's probably even worse now. It would be a great weapon for guardsman but on a marine it's an absolute waste of 14 points.

Agreed. Bolters aren't that bad. They're actually pretty great at shredding 5+ or lower armored troops (Most Guardsmen, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos Cultists). As a Daemon/Guard player, I can attest to that. The problem is that basic marines are a bit too expensive for the current metagame. That means less bodies on the tabletop, making them pack less punch and be easier to kill. They should either drop them a couple points, or give power armour a 5+ invul save.

I actually like there being less marine bodies since they are supposed to be rarer.

Its never going to happen as this system gives way more benifits to large amounts of shots over elite killing shots.

And GW would never want you to not buy MOAR things.

 Desubot wrote:
Man it makes no sense really.

Listening to the audio book for unremembered empire and apparently 10 doods with boltguns can nearly take out a primarch. and these things hitting a basicily 2+ armor save will T5+ are able to nearly put girlyman down.

From a fluff standpoint it should be shred and rending since the things are mini frag missiles shot out of a heavy machine gun.

From a fluff standpoint it should be something like salvo 2/3 rending. This would make storm bolters something like salvo 4/6 rending. Would this break the game? No. People would just start using tac marines and terms.

Maybe not even then. Too many power units can't be effectively engaged by S4 shooting. That's how bad it is. You could double the output of bolt weapons and they still wouldn't cut it.

Martel732 wrote:
It won't help in this meta, really. I actually lose the majority of my marines to S6/7 shooting that doesn't penetrate the armor. They just get hit with mass wounds and I can't save them all. The prevalence of AP 2 just makes more expensive marine variants like sanguinary guard useless.

Well wave serpents are another problem bro lol.

If wave serpents are in the discussion I see no reason why my power armor shouldn't ricochet saved wounds back at the attacker.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Man it makes no sense really.

Listening to the audio book for unremembered empire and apparently 10 doods with boltguns can nearly take out a primarch. and these things hitting a basicily 2+ armor save will T5+ are able to nearly put girlyman down.

From a fluff standpoint it should be shred and rending since the things are mini frag missiles shot out of a heavy machine gun.

From a fluff standpoint it should be something like salvo 2/3 rending. This would make storm bolters something like salvo 4/6 rending. Would this break the game? No. People would just start using tac marines and terms.

If i was making a fluff based tactical game..

It would probably something like that. somewhere where marines are supercharged but cost an obscene amount but have multiple wounds and stuff since they should easily shrug off getting hit by a few flashlights or bullets.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It won't help in this meta, really. I actually lose the majority of my marines to S6/7 shooting that doesn't penetrate the armor. They just get hit with mass wounds and I can't save them all. The prevalence of AP 2 just makes more expensive marine variants like sanguinary guard useless.

Well wave serpents are another problem bro lol.

It's not just wave serpents. IG's go to weapons are S6/7 as well. So are Warp Spiders. So are Tau weapons. The list goes on and on. They just pepper with ROF S 6/7 and it does't matter if your marines have cover or not. It's brilliant list building, but very frustrating.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It won't help in this meta, really. I actually lose the majority of my marines to S6/7 shooting that doesn't penetrate the armor. They just get hit with mass wounds and I can't save them all. The prevalence of AP 2 just makes more expensive marine variants like sanguinary guard useless.

Well wave serpents are another problem bro lol.

It's not just wave serpents. IG's go to weapons are S6/7 as well. So are Warp Spiders. So are Tau weapons. The list goes on and on. They just pepper with ROF S 6/7 and it does't matter if your marines have cover or not. It's brilliant list building, but very frustrating.

When I played eldar in 5th war walkers with 2 scatter lazers were my most reliable killers. I know what you mean.

I forgot the war walkers.

Martel732 wrote:
I forgot the war walkers.

Unfortunately, War Walkers can be gunned down by some lucky unlucky defenders in power armor.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I forgot the war walkers.

Unfortunately, War Walkers can be gunned down by some lucky unlucky defenders in power armor.

That is incredibly unlikely before the war walkers have killed them all from 36" out.

Fluff-wise, bolters are Assault 4, S5 AP4. But on the tabletop, GW wants to sell more Marine models, so they came up with this pathetic representation and lower the cost of each Marine.

bibotot wrote:
Fluff-wise, bolters are Assault 4, S5 AP4. But on the tabletop, GW wants to sell more Marine models, so they came up with this pathetic representation and lower the cost of each Marine.

Well I don't understand their formula...40$ tac squads. No chance I buy that box.

Carnage43 wrote:There's nothing really wrong with the bolter itself, but it has no place as a mainstay weapon on a 14+ point model.

For example, Inquisition acolytes with bolters for 5 points are pretty solid.

... on a model that has -1 or -2 to all their stats, and don't have ATSKNF, among other things.

wuestenfux wrote:The imagination that the enemies die in droves when shot by bolter wielding Marines is wrong.

I'd say it's mostly this. Incorrect expectations. People read a HH novel and get it in their heads that a bolter can mow down twenty six guard regiments in 2.6 seconds and then wonder why they're not as good on the table. Or, of course, they're also not that bad when you don't assume that every unit always has a 4+ cover save in every circumstance, and that forcing models to hide in cover isn't sometimes a very bad thing.

As far as over time, bolters have hurt from two main things. The first is that 40k is now about how many monstrous creatures you can cram on a table, and bolters aren't very good against them. Back when basically only tyranid had MCs, that just left light and heavy infantry, and light and heavy vehicles, bolters being able to hurt 3 out of 4 reasonably reliably. They also didn't used to have to deal with fliers. Not really a problems with bolters, but of GW listening to their players when it came to what to add and what balance was.

The other thing as well has been points creep. Even back when they started "sucking" in 3rd ed, it was common to see armies that had much more like 20 dudes and a tank than a 6-foot line of wave serpents. If you adjust for points inflation, then all small arms become a lot better, and bolters even moreso than other small arms. Go play a 500 or 750 point game where your opponent's army isn't 3 riptides and then say that bolters are bad.

As far as specific rules, I can only think of a couple that hurt bolters specifically, such as the change in 5th edition of units giving units behind them a cover save instead of forcing a Ld9 check (which was a tiny bit better), and a vastly more generous vehicle damage table (which, though, have now been replaced with hull points, which arguably make them better).

"Go play a 500 or 750 point game where your opponent's army isn't 3 riptides and then say that bolters are bad. "

They're still bad. You just have fewer targets you'll never hurt.

Martel732 wrote:
"Go play a 500 or 750 point game where your opponent's army isn't 3 riptides and then say that bolters are bad. "

They're still bad. You just have fewer targets you'll never hurt.

Sounds about right to me. At 750 points I'm bringing Fire Warriors and an Ethereal. Pulse rifles make bolters very sad.

I think people need to play as Guardsmen for a whoile and get used to S3 AP - guns for a bit. Because Bolt Guns are a huge improvement.

BUT

On the flip side of the coin, you got necron bolt guns that strip hull points crazy easy, then you have tau buffed bolt guns with super range and then you have assault bolt guns with rending (but less range).

I do feel like they are missing something, but at the same time they dont feel like they are that bad.

I think the real problem lies with Marines not the gun. But the point is, it aint so bad.

 Xenomancers wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Fluff-wise, bolters are Assault 4, S5 AP4. But on the tabletop, GW wants to sell more Marine models, so they came up with this pathetic representation and lower the cost of each Marine.

Well I don't understand their formula...40$ tac squads. No chance I buy that box.

$40 gives you not only 10 models, but tons of other kids to decorate them, along with tons of alternative weapons to arm them such as Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Melta, etc. The Tactical Marines and Sternguards are two most modified units in the game.

You won't, but lots of others will. It's the law of Supply and Demand. Anyway, if Tactical Marines cost 15 points per model with the REAL Bolter, the cost might have been $50.