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Probably because it's impossible to enforce such laws and there are bigger things to worry about.
When customs sees a 5 by 5 by 5 box filled with plasic and it's marked as "Toys $15,-" then nobody is going to care.
Especially not if the next case contains a thousand fake brand-sunglasses that are going to be sold on the street.

Perhaps GW will train dogs to sniff out recasts and donate them to each airport.
Until then they can probably never stop recasting.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
They are in other countries, countries where it is very difficult to just walk up and say "hey they are stealing our copyright".

This is exactly true. Most of the recasts that are made are from Russia or China, and China especially doesn't give a about copyright in other countries. These sites do eventually get shut down, however.

EDIT: And I'm not sure how allowed talk about recasters in on Dakka. I'm sure the talk about it is fine, but any links to recasters is prohibited.

They aren't "officially" supported. of course, not the " " around " officially wink wink nudge nudge..
Links are definately a no no and a thread was closed a few days ago because the name of a site was used (giving the names of the sites could be construed as advertising for them). But the thread was closed because of it but the name of the site was not removed. of course in order to keep up the pretense, I'm sure now someone will make the obligatory statement of not condoning it un-officially either in order to maintain appearances. No one will be fooled of course. lol
Most gaming sites just forbids all public discussion of them. My suggestion for the OP is if your interested, your best bet is to use PM to talk to those in the know here who could give you more information.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.

Recasts are unofficial counterfeits, and are either sold as the originals, or as recasts.
Knockoffs are dodgy, and are treated by the law as such.
Around here, that gets treated as 'receiving stolen goods'.

There's a big thick line between recasting for personal use, and selling recasts.

Recasts aren't stolen, there's a big thick line between infringing on someone's IP (a civil law) and stealing something (a criminal one.) As recasts aren't stolen, I can't see how a prosecution for receiving stolen goods could be made to stick?


EDIT
Out of curiosity, I had a quick google, and this is what Wiki says about handling stolen goods (receiving is an outdated term and has been replaced by a new law)

Handling stolen goods is the name of a statutory offence in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. It takes place after a theft or other dishonest acquisition is completed and may be committed by a fence or other person who helps the thief to realise the value of the stolen goods. It replaces the offence of receiving stolen goods under section 33 of the Larceny Act 1916.

So I guess "dishonest acquisition" may possibly fit, but I have always assumed that the originals are acquired by legitimate means, and it would also be difficult to argue that buying a recast somehow aids the realisation of the value of stolen goods when no theft has, in fact, taken place.

One for the legal minds out there, if they're reading.

END EDIT

Let's make a distinction here, any laws that are broken in the sale or supply of recast miniatures are minor ones, in the grand scheme (I know, technically any law is as valid as another in terms of whether one should adhere to it or not, but in reality law enforcement agencies are much more interested in murder or drug smuggling than illegal parking or downloading mp3s without permission) and realistically a fine for a purchaser of such would be the absolute worst case they could expect - they're not getting clapped in irons and put in the stocks or sent to prison for years.

If one wishes to make a moral, rather than legal, argument out of it, then things are a lot less clear cut.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Out of curiosity, I had a quick google, and this is what Wiki says about handling stolen goods (receiving is an outdated term and has been replaced by a new law)

Handling stolen goods is the name of a statutory offence in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. It takes place after a theft or other dishonest acquisition is completed and may be committed by a fence or other person who helps the thief to realise the value of the stolen goods. It replaces the offence of receiving stolen goods under section 33 of the Larceny Act 1916.

So I guess "dishonest acquisition" may possibly fit, but I have always assumed that the originals are acquired by legitimate means, and it would also be difficult to argue that buying a recast somehow aids the realisation of the value of stolen goods when no theft has, in fact, taken place.

One for the legal minds out there, if they're reading.

It would not fit for two reasons.

The acquisition is qualified as dishonest, and the target of that acquisition is the stolen goods.

It's perfectly honest to buy something from a chinese merchant, and I doubt you're ever buying stolen goods. Since nothing has ever been stolen that would be tricky at best.

In russia it is only illegal to make recasts and sell them as GW products. It is 100% legal to sell them as what they are recasts. Same with China. Heck when my dad was in HK last year and wanted to buy stuff he couldn't get from an official sony store there, the clerks there pointed him to where he can buy the stuff they don't have. Both store were almost door to door. And no one seemed to have problems with it.

Is chapterhouse a recaster? I had no idea that there were a lot of recasters out there.

If it saves me money, then I wouldn't mind. GW and FW are over priced as it is

Makumba wrote:
In russia it is only illegal to make recasts and sell them as GW products. It is 100% legal to sell them as what they are recasts. Same with China.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. China have agreed to the Berne Convention and subsequently introduced international copyright regulations back in 1992. There's just a complete lack of enforcement.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Is chapterhouse a recaster?

No, CHS is a third party manufacturer making their own original items that are compatible with GW kits, that's a totally different kettle of aquatic animals.

The crux of the legal case was GW decided to (yet again) try and intimidate a small company doing something they didn't like, but wasn't actually wrong, into going away because they didn't want to risk a massive legal bill. CHS secured free legal representation and consequently were able to call GW's bluff.

What then followed was essentially a massive implosion of GW's assertion of ownership. Around three quarters of the original claims never made it to trial, and around three quarters of those that did were found to be in favour of CHS. Of the tiny percentage of the original claims that GW did win on many felt rather arbitrary and smacked of a jury of non-experts making almost random choices.

We'll never know what would have happened if it had got to appeal, but it wouldn't be hard to make a case for those items found in favour of GW originally being overturned.

Even if you're of the opinion that CHS took some liberties with GW's stuff, the fundamental concept of making add-ons for someone else's product is perfectly legitimate and in no way similar to recasting.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Is chapterhouse a recaster? I had no idea that there were a lot of recasters out there.

If it saves me money, then I wouldn't mind. GW and FW are over priced as it is

Chapterhouse is just a small independent miniature producer, with its own sculpts, some of which are based on GW's universe, which is borderline IP infringement but not legally enforceable.

There have always been hundreds of recasters around the world, mostly people recasting for themselves or a few of their friends.

There may not be that many directly accessible recasters though, as Zhanchui is behind most of the Aliexpress / taobao / yoymart ones for example.

The savings are not really linear though, and most recasters have horrible quality compared to GW styrene, implying lots of cleanup and fixing.

For example, most of the GW stuff is about 50% off, but in crappy resin instead of plastic, with lots more work to clean it off.

You're better off buying second hand and cleaning it up, it takes less time, or just buy it new at 20% off and resell some bits and whatnot.

For the FW stuff, a lot of it is really expensive, 50% off the FW price, but it's more priced based on work, i.e. simpler kits with less resin in them will cost proportionally less, making some chinese recasts up to 80% off as in the rare case of the Revenant Titan that FW sells for way too much compared to the kit's production cost.

Overall, I would say that unless you find a really good recaster, it's just not worth the hassle and health hazard if you make more than ten bucks an hour.

I don't know what is the big deal about this recasters.In my job we are pretty aware that whenever we develop some improvement or new product in one year there will be a Chinese version of it. Real companies fight it by providing high quality plus good costumer service and warranty at a competitive cost. What do you think IKEA and ZARA do? They copy designs from other brands and produce them in china with minimal cost, low qualityt materials and bring them here. Why is it much more despicable to buy from a recaster than to buy from IKEA?
GW can continue his legal crusade as long as it wants but the real solution would be adjusting its prices to real value of their product and obviously provide a higher standard of quality. Because I have some failcasts that makes me wonder if GW actually buys from recasters and then sells them to us.

 Azreal13 wrote:
IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.

I hear this all the time and it just ain't true. Patents, copyrights and trademarks are all governed by international treaties which require countries to recognize each other's IP protection.

On paper, China has very strict IP laws.

However they are very slective in enforcement.

For a Chinese local official the biggest item on the scorecard is economic development, so they have little to no incentive to shut down workshops that are pirating clothes, toys, DVDs, car parts, medicine etc. Sometimes someone will make enought noise to trigger a crackdown but generally piracy is seen as a cheap and easy way to make goods people will buy.

And honestly, there are companies that spend GW's annual turn over in a week. If Ford, or Microsoft or Apple can't eliminate piracy of their products there's no way tiny little GW will.

morgoth wrote:

Recast sites are perfectly legal because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.

Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.

First line, untrue. Recasting is illegal in the relevant countries, although as pointed out, the law isn't enforced.

Second line is irrelevant. We're talking here about copyright, not about patents, copyright that was brought into law by hard-working artists, like William Hogarth, who didn't want their work ripped off.

Bizarre that people would want to deny them that, but I am aware some people do, thinking that it is somehow sticking it to the corporations.

Az - copyright violation is not purely civil , it all depends on the degree and the reasons.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Recast sites are perfectly legal because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.

Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.

First line, untrue. Recasting is illegal in the relevant countries, although as pointed out, the law isn't enforced.

Second line is irrelevant. We're talking here about copyright, not about patents, copyright that was brought into law by hard-working artists, like William Hogarth, who didn't want their work ripped off.

Bizarre that people would want to deny them that, but I am aware some people do, thinking that it is somehow sticking it to the corporations.

Guess what my friend, none of what I create and invent can be protected, so I guess I don't see why some other people's creations should be protected.

First line may be untrue, but it's the philosophy behind all that. Culturally, copyright is a joke to many non-western countries.

I believe if a person takes the time, money, effort and imagination to build something they alone have the right to reap the rewards.Others can take that idea and build on it, others can make better versions or build their own empires off their own back. CW promotes competition and furthers creativity and diversifies the market.

But that's not re casters are doing. They are not creating, they are not improving, they are duplicating someones work and selling it. They can only make money selling it because the creators took the time and effort to build the company, to work on the product - it took many years for GW to become what it is today.

If anyone goes out and creates their own miniatures game with their own creations power to them.
Creating ones where the intention is to be compatible with the system, or simple recasting, is profiteering from someone else work. Issue with recasting is it is so easy. Its not like you can mass reproduce exact copies of Apple products to sell or such things. Low brand rip offs yes, but not exact duplicates.

Of course they can offer it at a lower price at the end of the day. All they did was buy one model, some mould components and some resin. They didn't invest thousands in starting the company, decades in time, hiring people, sculptors, marketing, shop fronts continued projects and project support, business taxes down to the office Christmas party, a singular GW's, or indeed any independent model company produced model costs much more to make than a re casters cast.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Az - copyright violation is not purely civil , it all depends on the degree and the reasons.

Genuinely interested to here an example when it isn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Recast sites are perfectly legal because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.

Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.

First line, untrue. Recasting is illegal in the relevant countries, although as pointed out, the law isn't enforced.

Second line is irrelevant. We're talking here about copyright, not about patents, copyright that was brought into law by hard-working artists, like William Hogarth, who didn't want their work ripped off.

Bizarre that people would want to deny them that, but I am aware some people do, thinking that it is somehow sticking it to the corporations.

Guess what my friend, none of what I create and invent can be protected, so I guess I don't see why some other people's creations should be protected.

First line may be untrue, but it's the philosophy behind all that. Culturally, copyright is a joke to many non-western countries.

You're the most relentlessly incorrect person I've ever met.

Or you're doing it on purpose.

 EVIL INC wrote:
They aren't "officially" supported. of course, not the " " around " officially wink wink nudge nudge..

No need for the winking and nudging. They're not unofficially supported by DakkaDakka either.

 Nem wrote:
I believe if a person takes the time, money, effort and imagination to build something they alone have the right to reap the rewards.Others can take that idea and build on it, others can make better versions or build their own empires off their own back. CW promotes competition and furthers creativity and diversifies the market.

Really, last I checked they relentlessly hunted down anyone who dared make anything vaguely connected to Warhammer and attempted to eradicate them. Up until CHS they got away with it too. GW do not promote competition, further creativity or diversification, they wish total and complete control of the entire market and are willing to destroy anything that they perceive as a threat to that.

They even tried to claim ownership of "halberd" for feths sake.

But that's not re casters are doing. They are not creating, they are not improving, they are duplicating someones work and selling it. They can only make money selling it because the creators took the time and effort to build the company, to work on the product - it took many years for GW to become what it is today.

Personally, my take on what GW is today is a wobbly, financially uncertain company that seems to be hopelessly out of touch with a significant part of it's customer base and a publicly declared disinterest in doing anything about it. They also seem convinced that they are a miniatures company and not a games company and a premium brand, none of which is supported by anything but their own idea of that's how they want to be.

So, yes, I agree, if recasters were damaging the multitude of small companies and one man studios that turn out some of the frankly staggering works we see released weekly they would deserve unpleasant things to happen to their sensitive areas, but as it stands, they're damaging the massively dominant incumbent who's own mismanagement has created the space the recasters operate in, and who's ability to minimise that space remains firmly in their own hands. Neither are poor starving artists negatively impacted, as all GW designers are salaried, and if their creation sold in the millions, they wouldn't see an extra penny.

If anyone goes out and creates their own miniatures game with their own creations power to them.
Creating ones where the intention is to be compatible with the system, or simple recasting, is profiteering from someone else work. Issue with recasting is it is so easy. Its not like you can mass reproduce exact copies of Apple products to sell or such things. Low brand rip offs yes, but not exact duplicates.

Do you know why we don't see exact copies of Apple products for less? Because they use intrinsically higher quality components at a higher cost, so while they are still selling at a substantial mark up, they are at least doing something to justify the cost and make them harder to reproduce. GW does nothing to justify their price premium over other similar products. When a recaster can, without access to the master model, still (if reports on here can be believed) produce a better quality product than the original producer, you've got a problem. If another, smaller, company can produce a similar, or even superior, quality product for substantially less legitimately, you've got a problem.

GW currently have both these problems, and, again, have (or had, the next financial report should be out next week) the resources to address this.

Of course they can offer it at a lower price at the end of the day. All they did was buy one model, some mould components and some resin. They didn't invest thousands in starting the company, decades in time, hiring people, sculptors, marketing, shop fronts continued projects and project support, business taxes down to the office Christmas party, a singular GW's, or indeed any independent model company produced model costs much more to make than a re casters cast.

You're absolutely correct, but as I've already mentioned, it is GW themselves that have created the space for recasters to operate. Their average margin on their products is ~75%. That is the difference between RRP and cost of production. The reason GW are liable for all those shop fronts, staff, office parties etc is because they chose to be. If GW are now so bloated that they cannot afford to charge a competitive price for their product, and as a consequence are overcharging so much that recasters can charge half (or less in some cases) and still make enough profit to be worthwhile is solely a consequence of bad decisions GW has made.

Couple that with the ill feeling GW has managed to cultivate and the "feth you GW" factor alongside substantial discounts has to be a powerful attractant for many.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Personally, my take on what GW is today is a wobbly, financially uncertain company that seems to be hopelessly out of touch with a significant part of it's customer base and a publicly declared disinterest in doing anything about it. They also seem convinced that they are a miniatures company and not a games company and a premium brand, none of which is supported by anything but their own idea of that's how they want to be.

So, yes, I agree, if recasters were damaging the multitude of small companies and one man studios that turn out some of the frankly staggering works we see released weekly they would deserve unpleasant things to happen to their sensitive areas, but as it stands, they're damaging the massively dominant incumbent who's own mismanagement has created the space the recasters operate in, and who's ability to minimise that space remains firmly in their own hands. Neither are poor starving artists negatively impacted, as all GW designers are salaried, and if their creation sold in the millions, they wouldn't see an extra penny.

My take, if the money people spent on recasters actually went to development of non-GW games I might agree with you, but instead it just goes to artistic leeches. It's disingenuous to think GW don't bring anything to the table, a quick estimate is that they have around 200 plastic kits in 40k alone. That's an extremely well supported universe that I believe is unmatched by it's competitors.

You might not agree with GW's business practices, but the fact of the matter is they are still contributing to wargaming, recasters are not. If you don't like GW's business practices it should not be recasters filling the void, it should be other companies that are also contributing to gaming.

As for supporting the artist, I think being selective is a slippery slope. The artists may be salaried, but their livelihood is still dependant on the strength of the company, if the company is doing well they can request raises or a stake in the company, if the company does poorly then they could lose their jobs. If you don't like what the artist is producing or how the company presents itself, then I feel you should just not buy what they produce at all.

It's not up to the customer to feel obliged to prop up a company that is making bad decisions, but I think the customer should most certainly feel obliged to give their gaming money to people who are actually supporting gaming rather than leeching off it. I'm aware copying and being against copying is a cultural thing... but I think the better culture is the one that supports the artists and companies who are creating the work they desire.

I think our culture has become one of self entitlement, we talk about how the big bad company is big and bad but at the end of the day we still want what they produce so we take it anyway.

Personally, yes, I agree, I believe every £1 spent with the competition is £2 GW have lost, and is a far more effective method of smacking GW over the nose with a rolled up fiscal newspaper. Which is why I've largely resisted the urge to buy recasts and sought out alternate models from third parties as much as possible - I still get to 40K (although my motivation to do so frequently drops away to nothing for weeks or months at a time) but I support GW as little as possible.

But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.

Recasting is a symptom, it isn't the disease.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Personally, yes, I agree, I believe every £1 spent with the competition is £2 GW have lost, and is a far more effective method of smacking GW over the nose with a rolled up fiscal newspaper. Which is why I've largely resisted the urge to buy recasts and sought out alternate models from third parties as much as possible - I still get to 40K (although my motivation to do so frequently drops away to nothing for weeks or months at a time) but I support GW as little as possible.

But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.

Recasting is a symptom, it isn't the disease.

I've been saying this for years.

 Azreal13 wrote:
But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.

I don't think this is at all true. GW is never going to be able to compete with Chinese slave labor making recasts of their products, so as long as they have enough market share for it to be worth recasting their stuff there will be recasters. The only way the recasters will disappear is if the market fragments so much that a recaster can't guarantee that enough customers exist to buy their entire stock.

(Of course I don't disagree at all about the stupidity of GW spending obscene amounts of money fighting every random person who sells their own version of space marine shoulder pads, but that's a separate issue.)

If GW were to sell their products closer to what it costs, the price difference between the two would be slight enough that most people would pay the pennies extra for the original thing.
Your right, there would still be a market for knockoffs and there would still be sellers of knockoffs, but the numbers would be much lower. (Not to mention GW making a lot more $ through the surge of sales that would more than make up for the lower prices).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.

I don't think this is at all true. GW is never going to be able to compete with Chinese slave labor making recasts of their products, so as long as they have enough market share for it to be worth recasting their stuff there will be recasters. The only way the recasters will disappear is if the market fragments so much that a recaster can't guarantee that enough customers exist to buy their entire stock.

(Of course I don't disagree at all about the stupidity of GW spending obscene amounts of money fighting every random person who sells their own version of space marine shoulder pads, but that's a separate issue.)

Of course it's true, the less GW/FW charge, the less the recasters are able to charge. Sure, they can probably still turn a profit on a very small percentage of RRP, but there's a point where it ceases to be worth the time and effort.

Plus you have to account for the fact that most people, one or two counter culture douchebags "sticking it to the man" aside, would rather have the genuine product if they could, and if that means paying a 100% premium, the temptation to order recasts is much stronger. If that premium reduces (and there's no point in really debating a % here, different people will have different tipping points, it's the sellers job to find that point for the majority) then more people will be inclined to buy genuine, even if it still carries a premium.

People are willing to pay a premium for things if they see a reason to do so, currently GW aren't providing a compelling reason.

I do wonder how much lower recasters could go on their prices though. It does seem like much of the stuff is priced vs GW's prices anyway, so perhaps if GW lowered their prices the recasters might be able to lower their own prices to match.

Maybe, but I've seen Cerastus chassis Knights on sale for ~£30.

When you consider there is still time (and contrary to what Peregrine might think, I don't think there's factories full of children churning this stuff out, I heard once that more than one recaster is a Westerner out there supplementing their income in their spare time, don't know the truth of that,) moulds and material to cover, plus often free shipping, and a profit, I can't imagine there's a lot left to trim.

That might be me thinking like a Westerner with a Westerner's living costs though.

.... that is exactly what that is. The Chinese laborer, even if it's not sweatshop labor, is costing the recaster pennies compared to the domestic labor costs for GW.

A Recaster also doesn't require much overhead in terms of laborforce... most of the work is done by fairly simple machines (the molds and casters and such). So, if GW slashed their prices by half, a recaster could likely do the same. Would the recaster be making as much profit as they were? No, of course not. Would they still be making a profit? Most certainly.

I did also make the point that a profit isn't necessarily enough to make it worth the hassle, especially if, in this hypothetical situation, the reduced prices of genuine goods also increase the number of people choosing to buy them over recasts.

So we have a shrinking market at lower margins - would there still be a market? Probably, but it would atrophy pretty markedly in short order IMO.

The recasters ARE taking a chance. Only the most desperate would do it if the profits werent enough. If they are able to make more money turning an honest dollar for little work, they will be less likely to do more work for less $.
True, it would still happen. Heck, even if the prices for recasts were HIGHER than GW prices, there would still be a business for it in certain parts of the world where getting honest stuff reliably is an issue.
The point is, it would put a huge dent in it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course it's true, the less GW/FW charge, the less the recasters are able to charge. Sure, they can probably still turn a profit on a very small percentage of RRP, but there's a point where it ceases to be worth the time and effort.

But then is GW going to make much of a profit? After all, their costs of designing, manufacturing, and selling those kits is going to be higher than the recaster's, so if GW cuts their prices to the point that the recaster can't make much money their next financial report is going to be a disaster. And what would be the point? GW's primary market is people who aren't going to even know that recasts exist, I can't imagine they're losing so much money to recasters that putting them out of business would be worth destroying their own profit margins.

People are willing to pay a premium for things if they see a reason to do so, currently GW aren't providing a compelling reason.

The countless people who pirate movies/music/games/etc just because they can would disagree with you. I suppose there are a few people who buy recasts to make some kind of ideological statement about how fair GW's prices are, but are they really that common compared to the people who only care about getting the cheapest possible price regardless of how ethical it is?