Are SM razorbacks too expensive?

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**Xenomancers**

Draco wrote:
I think it is same league with a land speeder.

Land speeder is much better IMO. While Slightly less tough it has a lot more control about what damage it takes due to mobility. It's always putting out full firepower - can deep strike. Has 2 heavy weapons as opposed to one.

**Martel732**

BA razor raises its hand.

**Poly Ranger**

Xenomancers wrote:
Draco wrote:
I think it is same league with a land speeder.

Land speeder is much better IMO. While Slightly less tough it has a lot more control about what damage it takes due to mobility. It's always putting out full firepower - can deep strike. Has 2 heavy weapons as opposed to one.

Plus the fact that DS and 2 mms synergise perfectly

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
BA razor raises its hand.

BA razors cost 5 or 10 points more for being fast?

**Vaktathi**

massed razorbacks can kinda work (particularly depending on opponent), but I think there's a case to be made that pretty much any non-skimmer transport, barring the basic 35pt Rhino, is probably overcosted.

**MajorWesJanson**

Nevelon wrote:
I preferred the last codex’s pricing over this one’s. The up-gunned ones cost the same, but the TLHB was only 40 points. I think paying 5 points for the guns at the cost of the firing port and capacity was fair. I’m not sure it’s worth it to field the cheep guns these days, since you are already out most of the points, might as well pony up 20 more and get a real gun.

This. Maybe drop the base price by 10 points from the current one, and bump the TLAC and Las/Plas option up 5 or 10 points.

**Xenomancers**

I think a properly priced razor would be 40 points +15 for a TL LC or AC and + 25 for Laz Plas.

**Martel732**

Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
BA razor raises its hand.

BA razors cost 5 or 10 points more for being fast?

10. Worth every penny.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
massed razorbacks can kinda work (particularly depending on opponent), but I think there's a case to be made that pretty much any non-skimmer transport, barring the basic 35pt Rhino, is probably overcosted.

I have a 1000 pt list with 5 rhinos. They are actually kinda good at 1000 pts.

**generalchaos34**

Xenomancers wrote:
I think a properly priced razor would be 40 points +15 for a TL LC or AC and + 25 for Laz Plas.

I agree. As is there is not much reason to take a HB razorback, and I would actually like to have a reason to. 20 points for worse capacity and a mediocre gun is not very good at all. 40 points is well costed in my opinion. What I would really like to see is a change to how HB work. Something like they become Salvo 3/5.

**vipoid**

Big Blind Bill wrote:

This was my thought about SM ones. In theory anyway, I wouldn't want to actually spend 75 points on an AV11 tank.

In that case, I advise you to never play Militarum Tempestus - they're expected to fork out 80-100pts for a transport with front AV11 and side AV10.

jreilly89 wrote:

People rarely take Razorbacks. Even when they do, it's usually only one for a Dev squad. At 55 points for a 6 capacity transport, I'd hardly call them cheap.

Venoms are 55pts for a 5-capacity transport.

**jreilly89**

vipoid wrote:

jreilly89 wrote:

People rarely take Razorbacks. Even when they do, it's usually only one for a Dev squad. At 55 points for a 6 capacity transport, I'd hardly call them cheap.

Venoms are 55pts for a 5-capacity transport.

Venoms have better firepower and IIRC can Jink

**generalchaos34**

vipoid wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:

This was my thought about SM ones. In theory anyway, I wouldn't want to actually spend 75 points on an AV11 tank.

In that case, I advise you to never play Militarum Tempestus - they're expected to fork out 80-100pts for a transport with front AV11 and side AV10.

In their defense they are fast transport that re rolls dangerous terrain and has some pretty decent weapon options (gatling cannons + Volley guns = dead infantry) but they could go down a good 10-15 points

**Big Blind Bill**

I am surprised with the poll results so far.

I personally felt that the high base cost of the razorback was its biggest problem, but a lot of people claim that the upgrades are too expensive.

Is 20 points too much to upgrade a heavy bolter to Las/Plas, or tl-lascannon?

**vipoid**

jreilly89 wrote:

Venoms have better firepower and IIRC can Jink

Well, better firepower is debatable. They have better anti-infantry firepower, but they're worthless against vehicles - whereas Razorbacks can take Lascannons or Assault Cannons.

Also, whilst they can Jink, they're also AV10 with open topped and only 2 HPs (and, if they do jink, then that "better firepower" becomes worthless).

**Alcibiades**

Poly Ranger wrote:
SGTPozy wrote:
15 makes it even worse! No, the real reason why people don't use them is because of all of the other cheese in the codex like grab bikers, grav centurions... So basically grab weaponry in general (and yes, I am serious).

Str3 hurts broadsides on a 5+, but not razorbacks.
Str4 hurts broadsides on a 4+, and only the razorback at the rear (which is unlikely to be exposed; therefore not effect).
Str5 hurts broadsides on a 3+, and razorbacks on a 6+.
Str6+ hurts broadsides on a 2+, and razorbacks on a 5+.
Str7 hurts razorbacks on a 4+.
Str8+ insta kills broadsides, and wounds razorbacks on a 3+.

Broadsides have 2W for 10 points more, and the Razorback has 3HPs which can only be insta killed by ap1/2 weapons (and these wouldn't give the broadside a save either).

Broadsides have a save (making your comparisons moot), more shots, JSJ, don't lose weapons/get immobilised/stunned if they lose a wound, are pretty much immune to haywire, have no real fear of massed st6/7 firepower at middling ap...

Broadsides don't have JSJ. thank god

**kingbobbito**

vipoid wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:

Venoms have better firepower and IIRC can Jink

Well, better firepower is debatable. They have better anti-infantry firepower, but they're worthless against vehicles - whereas Razorbacks can take Lascannons or Assault Cannons.

Also, whilst they can Jink, they're also AV10 with open topped and only 2 HPs (and, if they do jink, then that "better firepower" becomes worthless).

Keep in mind, having to fire on snap shots is better than being destroyed.

I feel that the base razorback is a bit overcosted. A rhino is 35. Take a razorback now, add a heavy bolter (which is worth 10, maybe 15 since it is TL), and lose almost half your transport capacity (let's say 5 pts worth of capacity). So at least 10 points cheaper base.

As for the las, assault cannon, or las/plas, they're reasonably priced IF the base razorback was cheaper. If the base razorback doesn't get a cost cut, then the upgrades should definitely lose some of their cost. 5 or 10 points cheaper.

**Andilus Greatsword**

SGTPozy wrote:
15 makes it even worse! No, the real reason why people don't use them is because of all of the other cheese in the codex like grab bikers, grav centurions... So basically grab weaponry in general (and yes, I am serious).

Str3 hurts broadsides on a 5+, but not razorbacks.
Str4 hurts broadsides on a 4+, and only the razorback at the rear (which is unlikely to be exposed; therefore not effect).
Str5 hurts broadsides on a 3+, and razorbacks on a 6+.
Str6+ hurts broadsides on a 2+, and razorbacks on a 5+.
Str7 hurts razorbacks on a 4+.
Str8+ insta kills broadsides, and wounds razorbacks on a 3+.

Broadsides have 2W for 10 points more, and the Razorback has 3HPs which can only be insta killed by ap1/2 weapons (and these wouldn't give the broadside a save either).

You know there are other armies without access to grav which still don't bother with Razorbacks right? Massing them can make them decent, don't get me wrong, but they're far from broken... especially when you compare them to Broadsides.

Xenomancers wrote:
I think a properly priced razor would be 40 points +15 for a TL LC or AC and + 25 for Laz Plas.

This sounds good to me.

It'd actually bring them in line with the reasonably-costed Immolator, which is only 60pts with a TLMM/HB/HF.

**vipoid**

kingbobbito wrote:

Keep in mind, having to fire on snap shots is better than being destroyed.

Yes, but when they have so little durability to start with, virtually every weapon is a threat.

kingbobbito wrote:

I feel that the base razorback is a bit overcosted. A rhino is 35. Take a razorback now, add a heavy bolter (which is worth 10, maybe 15 since it is TL), and lose almost half your transport capacity (let's say 5 pts worth of capacity). So at least 10 points cheaper base.

Possibly this is because GW vastly overvalues the Heavy Bolter.

kingbobbito wrote:

As for the las, assault cannon, or las/plas, they're reasonably priced IF the base razorback was cheaper. If the base razorback doesn't get a cost cut, then the upgrades should definitely lose some of their cost. 5 or 10 points cheaper.

Possibly 50pts would be more reasonable for the base Razorback.

Which would line up with HBs costing 5pts, rather than 10.

**MWHistorian**

Too expensive money wise.