Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"It's hard to kill those dudes in the air. They should go away and be forced to charge me."
"But if they run across the table to you, you can kill them easily."
"YEAH SO THEY SHOULD NOT BE HARD TO KILL."

Flyrants will not do more damage by "buffing themselves" and charging. 12 TL S6 shots is a lot of consistent damage to give up. Neither do Harpies or Crones. Perhaps you meant Daemons Princes? I can't speak to that, but you're painting with a really wide brush to say "Ban em all."

Oh there's so many things I would change.

Jink would be amongst the first, have it affect passengers, can't jink if immobilized or not actually swooping/zooming (i.e. no Jink if walking/gliding), and have some sort of effect on assaults (primarily an issue for bikers, who can zoom around, jink, and assault without any penalty). Ideally reduce to 5+ instead of 4+. For an on-demand cover save, it's just too capable. Jink is particularly over-capable compared with Smoke Launchers and their 5+ save, which forbids both shooting and moving flat out (not just snapshots, *no* shooting), prevents passengers from shooting, and is one-use only, and many units have to either buy it or can't get it at all.

Vehicles in general. They're just too awkward. GW's trying to hold onto the old vehicle damage table, retaining it as a damage mechanism, but wanting them to effectively be T/W units as well with Hull Points. The problem is that no other units have to deal with such a damage chart, and T/W units have saves, vehicles do not. Additionally, vehicles are hideously, absurdly, easy to kill in close combat, against anything with grenades or a powerfist or just a volume of attacks, as soon as you make base contact, you've killed the tank, unless it's a Land Raider or a Walker where you hit front armor. I'd do one of two things, dump the damage table entirely and give vehicles saves and/or increase HP counts, or dump HP's and go back to just the damage table. Either way, change the way vehicles work in assaults, at least going back to the 5E "moved hit on 4+, moved fast hit on 6", because there's just zero anything required to kill tanks aside from making base contact. Ideally make it so that units have to choose between hitting the armor facing they assault into with full attacks and bonuses, or having to take more care to hit rear armor with fewer attacks or hitting on 5's instead or something, or at the very least allow tanks to hit back (Crush and Grind)

Change scoring, at the very least make it so that dedicated transports can't score unless they have an embarked scoring unit.

Remove the restriction on Skyfire firing on ground targets with snapshots. I can't think of a single real AA system, that isn't a dedicated missile platform with self-guiding missiles (something that would have the currently unused MIssile Lock rule...) that cant' be brought to effective bear against ground targets, at least not any that have a 40k analogue. AA tanks are brought to bear against infantry targets and light vehicles with great effectiveness all the time (you can go on Youtube and watch ZSU-23 AA tanks fighting in Syria with no problems engaging ground targets, the famous 88mm cannon of WW2 that was so effective at killing tanks was a purpose-designed AA gun, etc).

Restrict Lords of War to 25 or 30% of the game's points total.

Allow units to assault out of transports provided they have not yet moved.

Blasts/Templates can be fired on snapshots, templates reroll successful wounds, blasts get no BS reduction to scatter.

Remove "Linebreaker" and "First Blood" as secondary objectives. First Blood is absurd, relying more on who goes first than anything else, while Linebreaker is hugely dependent on the style of the army and many armies have little concept of "lines" to begin with and is very often trivial to achieve as well and often incredibly difficult for an opponent to prevent (e.g. an SM drop pod list dumping 6 pods on an opponent often will secure First Blood and Linebreaker with simply by dint of the nature of the army).

With regards to Maelstrom missions, I'd dump the system as it exists, and simply create a set of objectives that each army could choose from as part of army construction (e.g. control the skies and achieve air supremacy and destroy any and all enemy flyers and skyfire units while keeping your own flyers alive until the end of the game, or kill the enemy warlord, etc), which could serve to focus army construction and fluff as well.




If it were up to me I'd also dump formations, detachments, and allies in their entirety and go back to the old single FoC. For all the talk of "fluffy" armies and whatnot, almost overwhelmingly I see these options simply used for power. Knights in DE armies, SM armies with two detachments to make use of two different Chapter Tactics with different units, using powerful IC abilities in conjunction with units they were never intended to function with, etc.


With regards to the posts talking about bringing back BS modifiers and stacking cover, you would have to bring back armor save modifiers as well to make that function without having high armor save units be functionally invulnerable to shooting. Very limited BS modifiers can work, but if we're bringing them back in full force, armor save modifiers need to be brought back as well.

That was a single explanation, not numbered points. There's no need to go editing my words when just cutting them down to the relevant portions would work.

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Well the only army that can really spam FMC psykers is Nids, and its about their only competitive option. FMCs also have to check each turn they take hits to see if they crash to the ground and take a lascannon hit to the face. Relying on survivability seems like a legit tactic, not seeing why thats a good reason for removing them.

Daemons are the main culprit, actually. At least a Flyrant is legitimately more worrying in the air than on the ground instead of just hiding up there.

And if they're in Jump mode, they can still jink and don't need to worry about grounding. Which assault-profiled monsters with no real access to guns really should be doing.

I'm not saying to remove the units, just have them use the same ruleset as everyone else plays within.

2) Needing to have an answer for them is really no different than anything else in this game you need an answer for. Its like complaining that you might need an answer for 3+ armor.

Not really. The answer to 3+ armour is that it only works a two thirds of the time, and high AP weapons can still shoot other targets if they run out of optimal. Vehicles just need high strength weapons that are universally helpful to have, and specific anti-vehicle units can again shoot infantry just fine with no better target.

Skyfire? You're snapfiring without a target. At the average BS of 4 that's a 75% waste of points.

3) I fail to see how this is a bad thing. It actually adds an element of skill in that you need to plan your flyers movement a turn in advance. This is a feature, not a bug.

It's an added inconvenience that slows the game, just like everything else about flyer rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
"It's hard to kill those dudes in the air. They should go away and be forced to charge me."
"But if they run across the table to you, you can kill them easily."
"YEAH SO THEY SHOULD NOT BE HARD TO KILL."

Flyrants will not do more damage by "buffing themselves" and charging. 12 TL S6 shots is a lot of consistent damage to give up. Neither do Harpies or Crones. Perhaps you meant Daemons Princes? I can't speak to that, but you're painting with a really wide brush to say "Ban em all."

I was in fact talking about Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, which aren't even remotely built to hang back and do nothing.

As for removing them? Nah, that's the other guy. I'm just advocating a slight nerf from needing to snapfire to them automatically jinking at no cost to their ability to shoot.

And honestly I don't care in the slightest how hard to kill they are if it's by legit channels like high toughness, good saves and FNP. Being absurdly hard to hit in the first place so I can barely try to hurt them though? That's the same reason Invisibility is the most absurd and frustrating psychic power in the game.

I like 7th ed. quite a lot actually. But...

1. I'd eliminate a lot of the USR's that no one cares to use or remembers to use (e.g. Soul Blaze, Strike Down, etc.)

2. I'd change the names for FMC "modes" and wouldn't call it "modes" - it just sounds ridiculous. The term modes should be called "State". Swooping should be called "Flying" and Gliding should be called "Walking or Traversing".

3. The Invisibility psychic power would be changed to reducing a firing units BS to 1 instead of forcing Snap Shots. This would allow blast and template weapons to target the unit and mitigate abuse of the overpowered psychic power.

4. Rework the Summoning psychic power and Tervigon unit generation such that the units must be paid for... Not sure exactly how, but I find it unfair and displeasing to have my 1500 pt. army go head-to-head with an army that starts at 1500 pts., but then inflates to 2500+ pts.

I would do the following:

1) Reduce all ranged AP2 to AP3 unless A) it has the Melta USR, or B) is type Heavy. I would reduce Rending and Bladestorm to AP3 as well. Allow heavy armour to actually be durable and worth the cost.

2) Bikes, Jetbikes, beasts, cavalry, and Jump units determine assault range as 6+D6. Faster units should have a better chance at reaching assault.

3) Walkers are converted to MCs, there is truly no reason for unit type Walker to exist as a separate entity.

4) The Relentless USR cancels out the Unwieldy USR. You aren't slowed by a bulky, heavy ranged weapon, why would you be slowed by a bulky (and often integrated) assault weapon?