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I agree with the comments, about new painters feeling a sense of accomplishment, and just wanting to show some one. Just congratulate them on finishing the model. I'd only offer suggestions if they asked.

Any one can paint, but not every one is an artist. It's only by being self critical of our own work, that we are motivated to improve.

I do believe that it is an accomplishment in and of itself to complete an army paint job. Even badly. I also believe it is best to ask if someone wants your advice before offering it unsolicited. That said, if you are going to offer compliments to someone whos army doesn't warrant it, you are doing them a disservice.

Wow, it is easy to find error and fault, but a challenge to help or teach, remember there is always room for improvement for ALL of us.
.
Example 1); Is your Cannoness related to Marty Feldman, and what is she standing on an uninspired smear/blob of greenstuff/putty that is not even covering the entire base?
http://www.unsungfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/feldman04.jpg
.
Example 2); Ever heard of OILS?
.
Let thee without sin cast the first stone............

What was that article or paper than turned up a few weeks ago, about how much better negative feedback was to the learning process?

 rexscarlet wrote:
Wow, it is easy to find error and fault, but a challenge to help or teach, remember there is always room for improvement for ALL of us.
.
Example 1); Is your Cannoness related to Marty Feldman, and what is she standing on an uninspired smear/blob of greenstuff/putty that is not even covering the entire base?
http://www.unsungfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/feldman04.jpg
.
Example 2); Ever heard of OILS?
.
Let thee without sin cast the first stone............

The paint jobs I think are alright, but I agree, the bases leave a lot to be desired. It looks like they melted a crap ton of T1000's and stood in their liquid goo.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 rexscarlet wrote:
Wow, it is easy to find error and fault, but a challenge to help or teach, remember there is always room for improvement for ALL of us.
.
Example 1); Is your Cannoness related to Marty Feldman, and what is she standing on an uninspired smear/blob of greenstuff/putty that is not even covering the entire base?
http://www.unsungfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/feldman04.jpg
.
Example 2); Ever heard of OILS?
.
Let thee without sin cast the first stone............

The paint jobs I think are alright, but I agree, the bases leave a lot to be desired. It looks like they melted a crap ton of T1000's and stood in their liquid goo.

.
lol, really any effort at painting is IMHO great, better than the alternative bare plastic, primer armies... did you google marty feldman?

 rexscarlet wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 rexscarlet wrote:
Wow, it is easy to find error and fault, but a challenge to help or teach, remember there is always room for improvement for ALL of us.
.
Example 1); Is your Cannoness related to Marty Feldman, and what is she standing on an uninspired smear/blob of greenstuff/putty that is not even covering the entire base?
http://www.unsungfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/feldman04.jpg
.
Example 2); Ever heard of OILS?
.
Let thee without sin cast the first stone............

The paint jobs I think are alright, but I agree, the bases leave a lot to be desired. It looks like they melted a crap ton of T1000's and stood in their liquid goo.

.
lol, really any effort at painting is IMHO great, better than the alternative bare plastic, primer armies... did you google marty feldman?

"No, it's Eye-gor." "Really? They told me it was Igor." "Well, they lied."

The group at my local store is fairly regular (its normally the same 5-7 people every week) In this group I am by far the best painter, but they were all playing for years while i was just painting. Every few weeks I host a painting day at my house that way they can use my really nice airbrush and can have access to the expensive painting supplies so that they can see how well they can do with better products. When I first started playing with them 2 years ago they all played with unpainted armies. Now after 2 years almost all of them paint their minis and they are starting to look pretty damn good.

If hosting a painting day like this is possible for you I highly suggest it.
1. They get to use good paints
2. Some of them never get too use an airbrush at any other time
3. They dont have to live through the years of trial and error because im there to correct bad habits and ideas
4. We always break down and play at least 1 game LOL
5. They realize that they have been missing out on the most in depth part of the hobby
6. They realize how easy it can be to get to a really good looking tabletop mini with some basic techniques

Just an idea

You know...

I have ALWAYS wondered about this.

Mostly because when I was younger I confronted it all the time.

And BOY was I HORRIBLE at dealing with it.

I pretty much still am. I just don't know how to deal with discussions like that, and I have learned to just stay the hell quiet unless it is a case of someone asking for specific critique.

I think having been hammered during critiques in art school tends to give one an overly thick skin to this sort of thing, and that one can forget what it was like during the early days, when one still took critiques personally, rather than sitting with a note pad saying "And what else is wrong with it! Please! Be as brutal as possible!"

You really do get that way after about a year in Art School.

But I discovered it doesn't translate OUT of Art School too well.

Turns our people have these "feelings" that get hurt....

At best, I used to say "Have you studied art any?"

And if they said "Yes," then I would then begin a discussion about Critique Methods.

If they said "No." then I would probably recommend a book on basic art techniques.

Now... I understand that YouTube is filled with miniature painting tutorials.

MB

emmagine wrote:I don't understand the problem with truth bombs. Don't be insulting about it, but if someones model looks terribad, telling them "pretty cool" certainly isn't helping them. Hell, I don't even do that with 5 year olds. Usually, if someone new to the hobby comes showing you his new shiny model, he's doing it the same way an apprentice or a child does with the one teaching them. Applaud their effort, and tell them what the next step is to improve.

emmagine wrote:I do believe that it is an accomplishment in and of itself to complete an army paint job. Even badly. I also believe it is best to ask if someone wants your advice before offering it unsolicited. That said, if you are going to offer compliments to someone whos army doesn't warrant it, you are doing them a disservice.

you have an interesting opinion, in my opinion but only because you contradict yourself (in my opinion!). You suggest truth bombs, but then state if they are new you treat them differently anyway! But thats the difficulty, this is not a black and white issue. Giving someone a compliment isnt a disservice.
Would you not offer a compliment to an ugly girl simply because you think she doesn't warrant it? even though she spent hours doing her make-up? probably you would still compliment her I dont think your a douche or such like, I just think its hard to be black and white. Which in a forum is hard to explain without a 2 page essay.

My general rule; Don't comment unless you are trying to be positive. you can critise without being negative, and I find thats true through everything in life. Imo negativity isn't required anywhere, generally negativity is used to 'boost' oneself, as I find its typically a defense mechanism, or something that makes other people feel superior in whatever small fashion. Positivity on the otherhand is uplifting and world changing.

If you were to insult someone first thing in the morning, you can guarantee that will affect their whole day in a negative way, however small an affect, it is still negative. If you compliment them, it will do the reverse, ever had someone tell you, you look nice today? its pretty uplifting, you walk a little taller, head up, you look around you open your eyes and witness the beauty that is life. all that from a few words? easy peesy. Why be negative when you can be positive.

@solarshock
Good to see your still here, its been a while! Hope your doing good.

I agree with solarshock, id definitely have to say. Its really in the choice of words.
If I was to approach someone about their army, I would use a blanket statement like this.

Interesting color scheme, what colors did you use? How long you been playing for? This your first army? Hpw long did it take to paint your unit? How long you beeen painting minis? I have a couple minis painted up I want your opinion on them. (Show models) I noticed a couple things that would make your models pop, if you like I could show you a couple things.



This will take the (white lie) of complimenting something that would haunt your dreams. It turns it into more of a conversation and showing models back and forth it may inspire that person to inquire about how you did that, it also gives the person a choice of if they want advice.

There is a player at my FLGS who is very proud of his CSM army. Large collection, minimum of 3 levels of paint on each model, everything has a painted base.

Except... he used Testors car paint for all the models, the three levels are painted on in block colors (like racing stripes), the bases are painted red / white / blue / yellow with no terrain (you can see the slit where the model is mounted on each), and he covered everything in a gloss finish that shines bright enough to make it hard to see the models. Some of the models were a little greasy, slick to the touch, and in need of a scrubbing with hand soap.

Having moved onto Tyranids, he heard I had been buying up CSM armies and approached me about buying his in a very serious fashion. There's about 160 cultists, 6 Heldrakes, gobs of CSM models painted so ugly you could use them as just about any cult troop you want, a collection of ICs, some Helbrues / Rhinos / Predators / Lard Raiders / Vindicators / Forgefiends / etc. He wanted $4,000 for all of it, close to a third more expensive than buying everything new on the sprue. He was willing to throw in the Codex and the 8 carrying cases it takes to lug this stuff around.

I consider myself polite and diplomatic. I told him I did not have the funds to make the purchase, which lead to a conversation about the technical merits of the paint job.

He spent close to an hour explaining the work that went into each model, the care with which he freehanded the chaos star on each model (which is unrecognizable except as a slop), and the fact speed painting can net you such outstanding results over the course of a weekend. He offered to teach me how to make the paint job 'unbreakable' by dipping the models in a special varnish that is typically used only on motorcycle helmets - apparently, there's a secret to getting it to set properly so you only lose so much detail.

Which brings me to the point of the post.

There are some painters who read 'tabletop standard' as if it's a set of rules for the game. Three layers of paint, for them, means there are literally 3 colors of paint applied to a model in any fashion conceivable. They will invest in the least expensive paints possible in order to maximize the money they have to spend on models. The paint jobs are awful, they do not inspire confidence in the idea you are dealing with someone who understands the point of the hobby.

At the same time, you gain nothing by telling them the paint job sucks. People have reasons why they do things, they are always meaningful in the context in which such disasters occurred. It's far more interesting to learn about why they did things a certain way, and think about what it means in comparison to how people describe a great paint job. You would be surprised what 3 levels of paint means to some people.

Shinoden wrote:@solarshock
Good to see your still here, its been a while! Hope your doing good.

Interesting color scheme, what colors did you use? How long you been playing for? This your first army? Hpw long did it take to paint your unit? How long you beeen painting minis? I have a couple minis painted up I want your opinion on them. (Show models) I noticed a couple things that would make your models pop, if you like I could show you a couple things.

This will take the (white lie) of complimenting something that would haunt your dreams. It turns it into more of a conversation and showing models back and forth it may inspire that person to inquire about how you did that, it also gives the person a choice of if they want advice.

HAHAHA! I thought the exact same when I saw the hydra wych.... I was like.... wait a minute! I know that model and scheme! Im really good, glad to see your still around. I have started my harle force!...... i've made some dire avengers.... paint scheme will be interesting, slaneeshi pinks and blues airbrush fades into blacks (airbrushed to save me time...cos i lazy!) il send you a link to my test model, looks pretty funky. How you doing?

But exactly encouragement can come in many forms, what you should be aiming for irregardless of skill, who they are, what they do... is to encourage them. Sometimes simply a this dude is awesome is enough to make a kid spend another 3 hours on his next model in order to out do himself; using his own self drive, it could literally be a base coated blob, but because he's happy someone was willing to step forward and comment he will be straight back to that painting table. On the otherhand, suggesting washes may perk some curiosity in him and next thing you know his level has increased 10 fold. OR you may say 'looks awesome.... but those shoulder pads dont quite meet the aweosme standard of the rest of the model and drag it down', then hes like yeh I agree! il work on that! Simply put, encourage, encourage, encourage!

techsoldaten wrote:

Spoiler:

There is a player at my FLGS who is very proud of his CSM army. Large collection, minimum of 3 levels of paint on each model, everything has a painted base.

Except... he used Testors car paint for all the models, the three levels are painted on in block colors (like racing stripes), the bases are painted red / white / blue / yellow with no terrain (you can see the slit where the model is mounted on each), and he covered everything in a gloss finish that shines bright enough to make it hard to see the models. Some of the models were a little greasy, slick to the touch, and in need of a scrubbing with hand soap.

Having moved onto Tyranids, he heard I had been buying up CSM armies and approached me about buying his in a very serious fashion. There's about 160 cultists, 6 Heldrakes, gobs of CSM models painted so ugly you could use them as just about any cult troop you want, a collection of ICs, some Helbrues / Rhinos / Predators / Lard Raiders / Vindicators / Forgefiends / etc. He wanted $4,000 for all of it, close to a third more expensive than buying everything new on the sprue. He was willing to throw in the Codex and the 8 carrying cases it takes to lug this stuff around.

I consider myself polite and diplomatic. I told him I did not have the funds to make the purchase, which lead to a conversation about the technical merits of the paint job.

He spent close to an hour explaining the work that went into each model, the care with which he freehanded the chaos star on each model (which is unrecognizable except as a slop), and the fact speed painting can net you such outstanding results over the course of a weekend. He offered to teach me how to make the paint job 'unbreakable' by dipping the models in a special varnish that is typically used only on motorcycle helmets - apparently, there's a secret to getting it to set properly so you only lose so much detail.

Which brings me to the point of the post.

There are some painters who read 'tabletop standard' as if it's a set of rules for the game. Three layers of paint, for them, means there are literally 3 colors of paint applied to a model in any fashion conceivable. They will invest in the least expensive paints possible in order to maximize the money they have to spend on models. The paint jobs are awful, they do not inspire confidence in the idea you are dealing with someone who understands the point of the hobby.

At the same time, you gain nothing by telling them the paint job sucks. People have reasons why they do things, they are always meaningful in the context in which such disasters occurred. It's far more interesting to learn about why they did things a certain way, and think about what it means in comparison to how people describe a great paint job. You would be surprised what 3 levels of paint means to some people.

Too true! a 'good' paint job always is and always will be; an opinion. In this case, yes to most others this is pretty poor, but maybe he has 10 minutes a week to paint and will never get any more, so through practice and thought he has calculated a method that for him feels like it achieves a paintjob that would require say 30 minutes. meaning to him he is 3x as effecient. Plus! it allows him to play! Win Win Win!

Personally I convert and tweak EVERY model in my ork army. A squad of boyz go from a 2 minute build to a 10-15 minute build per boy, multiply that by 20. thats alot of time. So when I get to painting them im typically nowhere near as interested (plus modelling > painting - which then in my opinion does that make all your models 'bad' modelling jobs because you stuck to the standard model??), so I 'speed' paint, which simply means I come up with the most effective method to achieve what I believe is a reasonable paintjob within a reasonable time frame.

These are my 'speed' painted tankbustas;


Airbrushed main colours, stipled metal work with powders. No edge highlights and not ultra-wicked-awesome-jawdropping painting, but I am happy with it. Now it wasn't speedy by any means, but it meets my standard, yes I ask for critque and advice on where I could improve, but I then apply tat advice to my time frame and decide whether its worth it. But if someone was to turn around and simply critque negatively;
A) im less likely to be interested in his opinion
B) im gone be discouraged from getting back to more painting, posting on this forum and the entire hobby in general, heck! I might even be upset 'outside' the hobby.

There is simply no need