Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
FNP IS NOT A SAVE. This is the critical point. If you suffer an unsaved Wound you can then roll FNP to negate it but you still suffered an unsaved Wound.

Not negate ... discount, you know, treat is as if it were saved, like the rule says.

I would argue that it did not "change the rule" if this was the the original RAI from the start. But, either way, we cant know for sure so it doesnt matter.

 vipoid wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I don't follow your logic.

Are you saying that the shadowfield only fails if a model literally takes a wound right during the end of the phase? As it, the unsaved wound has to literally be taken as the phase is ending.

"at the end of any phase in which the model suffers one or more unsaved wounds"

You check at "the end of any phase" to see if a model with a Shadowfield has suffered "one or more unsaved wounds"

and if you pass FNP the model has demonstrably not suffered "one or more unsaved wounds" at the end of the phase when the check is done.

Except that he did - otherwise he wouldn't have had to roll FNP.

At the time you check for Shadofield, it demonstrably DID NOT suffer an unsaved wound.....

That would be true if and only if the FNP goes back in time logic was true. There are many reasons against this kind of thinking but this faq clearly kills the "paradox creating" FNP and is inline with the more reasonable and combatible with all rules "linear time" FNP.

copper.talos wrote:
That would be true if and only if the FNP goes back in time logic was true. There are many reasons against this kind of thinking but this faq clearly kills the "paradox creating" FNP and is inline with the more reasonable and combatible with all rules "linear time" FNP.

Considering with FNP you have to treat the wound "as having been saved." you need to go back in time and actually treat the wound "as having been saved."

(having been saved) means that you treat it as if you initially made the save.

As Nem said in a post before the timing is defined by "treat" which is present tense. Furthermore no matter how much you stretch wordings, meanings etc this faq killed the time travelling FNP. period.

6ed FnP seemed so much simpler. Then they FAQed ID, and made things worse.

One potential explanation is that the model with Shadow field suffers an unsaved wound, and overloads. While overloading (rest of phase), its still there, but collapses shortly (end of phase).

RAW, yes, this clearly conflicts with FnP. One 'assumption' must be wrong. Both assumptions are explicitly GW. So neither are wrong.

A ruling will be needed for any edge cases: do apply the FAQ narrowly, applying only in this one case, or do we apply the FAQ to the mechanics, necessitating he revision of FnP.

Applying it broadly requires a common rule to be rewritten, with several ways it can be written. And introduces a number of edge cases. But is probably closer to RAI.
Applying it narrowly provides no additional complications or edge cases. And there is only one meaning.

Broadly would be nicer, sure, if we could all agree on the specifics. Closer to RAI and fluff. Its too bad they didn't erratta instead. But, the game as a whole is a lot more stable with a narrow ruling.

(I really did like FnP in 6th pre-FAQ. Seemed simple. Against ID, for instance, you could argue that you could still roll FnP, but it was academic - the FnP prevented the HP loss from the failed save, but not effects - like dying. Now we have special rules trying to clarify what was clear - such as ID ignoring FnP - and a rewrite to FnP attempting to make it clearer, but only making it worse. And even more rule bloat such as EW still not giving FnP rules, which is just wonky.)

Know what was even simpler? The 5th edition Shadowfield rules - where it was destroyed if you failed the save,

But, GW then decided to change it to 'take an unsaved wound' for... reasons.

Ideally, simpler. Fortuned Shadowfield? Throw all 100 saves at once! In practice, 3 at a time, at least. Still, dumb.

If the shadowfield fails a save then it's fubar, not if you suffer a wound. That is how they should have phrased it. But GW can't write clear rules.

Gravmyr wrote:
Uh you may want to reread the beginning part of the book. BRB Basic vs Advanced "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models."

Edit: Basically if it's not on that list it's advanced, including type such as a vehicle type like tank or skimmer.

you may want to reread the section titled 'introduction' which states that the special rules are found in the appendix. HoW = special rule, Walkers= not a special rule.

person I was replying to falsely stated that walkers are special rules, they are not. Some walkers have special rules, but the rules for walkers turning to face something are not special rules.

regardless HoW is a advanced special rule, Walkers turning to face something is an advanced basic rule.

SF is an advanced special rule, FnP is an advanced special rule.

Saying SF states a precedence for all unsaved wounds is the same as saying the walker ruling sets a precedence for all special rules no longer trumping basic rules.

SF is a one of, poorly done, ruling- it affects nothing else.

Just like walkers and HoW is a one off ruling, it affects nothing else.

blaktoof wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Uh you may want to reread the beginning part of the book. BRB Basic vs Advanced "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models."

Edit: Basically if it's not on that list it's advanced, including type such as a vehicle type like tank or skimmer.

you may want to reread the section titled 'introduction' which states that the special rules are found in the appendix. HoW = special rule, Walkers= not a special rule.

person I was replying to falsely stated that walkers are special rules, they are not. Some walkers have special rules, but the rules for walkers turning to face something are not special rules.

regardless HoW is a advanced special rule, Walkers turning to face something is an advanced basic rule.

SF is an advanced special rule, FnP is an advanced special rule.

Saying SF states a precedence for all unsaved wounds is the same as saying the walker ruling sets a precedence for all special rules no longer trumping basic rules.

SF is a one of, poorly done, ruling- it affects nothing else.

Just like walkers and HoW is a one off ruling, it affects nothing else.

There are only basic rules and advanced rules, special rules are the same category as everything else in advanced rules. Technically.

Though I would have gone with HoW>Walker rules (I think since i've not looked at any too closely), but that's based on my perception that Special rules should do more. It's likely these just clashed and RAW had no answer to which took precedent.

-

As a precedent though I think it only effects a handful of rules. Hellfrost maybe, FMC grounding tests, and maybe a couple of other codex specific ones I can't think of right now, there's not that many where the ability comes definitively after the FNP roll.

As Nem said there is no advanced special rules. There are advanced rules and special rules.

blaktoof wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Uh you may want to reread the beginning part of the book. BRB Basic vs Advanced "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models."

Edit: Basically if it's not on that list it's advanced, including type such as a vehicle type like tank or skimmer.

you may want to reread the section titled 'introduction' which states that the special rules are found in the appendix. HoW = special rule, Walkers= not a special rule.

person I was replying to falsely stated that walkers are special rules, they are not. Some walkers have special rules, but the rules for walkers turning to face something are not special rules.

regardless HoW is a advanced special rule, Walkers turning to face something is an advanced basic rule.

SF is an advanced special rule, FnP is an advanced special rule.

Saying SF states a precedence for all unsaved wounds is the same as saying the walker ruling sets a precedence for all special rules no longer trumping basic rules.

SF is a one of, poorly done, ruling- it affects nothing else.

Just like walkers and HoW is a one off ruling, it affects nothing else.

I was pointing out that any rule that involves walkers is special to walkers. It does not transfer to all vehicles just because GW FAQ'd the interaction of HoW and Walkers. That would be like me asserting that FnP trumps Instant Death because you don't know if the wound is saved until you roll FnP and instant death doesn't cause instant death until there is an unsaved wound.

At least the Shadow Field ruling can be linked to other rules that use the same activation rules as so many other rules. Please pick a better example for proving it is a one off ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To further muddle the "special" rule conundrum.

PG72 of the BRB second paragraph

"Such vehicles do not fight in the same manner as other models- that's why their rules have been compiled in this section. First we're going to look at he rules and characteristics that all vehicles have in common, then we'll cover more specialist sets of rules for Flyers, Tanks, and more."