Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lanrak wrote:
Well my ideas a re more of a re-write than a WHFB conversion.

All units have the same unit profile.

All resolution is simply roll a D6 and add the relevant active player stat.Then compare it to the target stat to see if you succeed.

A ranged attack uses the attackers shooting skill +D6,compared to the targets Stealth value .(New stat to cover target size/disposition.)

EG a model with a shooting skill of 4 firing at a model/unit with Stealth 8 , needs to roll a 5 or more to hit.(Shooting skill 4 +5 =9. And 9 beats 8.)

A close combat attack uses the attackers Assault skill +D6 , compared to the targets Agility Skill (New Stat, to replace initiative.)

Rolling to save is targets AV + D6 compared to attackers weapon AP value .

Rolling to damage is just weapon Damage (replace strength.)+D6 compared to target Resilience .(replace Toughness.)

All the current morale boosts /special rules , are just to allow units to take horrendous casualties while they close in close combat.Added on special rules just add more complication to the rules than they do complexity to the game play.

As we could use the tactical use of smoke,( L.O.S blocking rounds), and a simple suppression mechanic.This would allow shooting to be more tactical than just killing stuff.
Which is the only thing assault can do.(Apart from tar pitting.)
If shooting and assault are NOT competing to do exactly the same in game function , then they can be balanced easier.(And we will not have to flip flop between shooting OR assault biased metas.)

My take on morale is to allow models to become suppressed when they take penetrating hits that do not cause wounds/structure damage.
If more than half the remaining models in the unit become suppressed , the unit becomes suppressed.

If suppressed units are not rallied before the start of the next game turn they have restricted actions, next turn.(May only move to cover, retire at full speed or return fire.)

Ill stop there as this may be too far away from what you are looking for?

Okay, I'm not sure how much you've read of my posts here, and frankly, I can't blame you for not wanting to, it's a whole lot after all, but the entire point of this thread isn't to make a system that fts 40k better - It's to port the WFB rules to 40k while making the changes needed for the game to be representative of the 40k mechanics, gameplay, and to a lesser extend, lore. Your ideas are great, and pretty damn simple when it comes down to it, but it's not what I'm going for - I'm going for making one game use another's mechanics in the best way possible. I've deliberately tried to hold off making a lot of new stuff, as I feel that that should only be something I should do, if the rules present won't work properly. Instead of making something new, I'm reusing something old.

I was thinking, though, that your ideas are very Warmahordes-like, which isn't a bad idea for a Skirmish-sized game. You could explore that, if you'd want to...

As I've stated before, I'm not here to reinvent the fork. I'm just trying to use the Warhammer system I find to be the better composed to try, and apply it to the game with the less well-composed system. I know and remember the most of both systems, so that helps quite a lot in making it. I get that I might not have said that clearly enough, but that's the gist of it...

I'm happy you want to help and add to it, but... Yeah :/

Hi again.
The problem is ,WHFB rules are written for a game focused on mobility and assault, with shooting being used only in a supporting role.(Due to it not being reliable or that common, compared to the number of assault units.)

40k has a far more ranged weapons/attacks in units .
So unless the game is skirmish sized, with plenty of room to manouver and terrain (like 2nd ed was.)
Shooting becomes too powerful.

The things that make WHFB work , out manouvering you opponent to get the best close combat match ups.
Simply fails to work in 40k, due to the units having far too many range attack options..

If you are familiar with WHFB.
Imagine all units getting hand guns/long bows , and an attached wizzard or war engine.
Would this spoil the game play?

That is is exactly what is wrong with 40k rules.

Some mechanics will work with 40k, Some will never work properly.

So are you prepared to throw out some WHFB game mechanics and resolution methods to get the game to work better?
Or do you just want WHFB in space with more guns.
(Which has just managed to remain over complicated for 5 editions , while loosing character detail and tactics at the same time.When developed by a team of professional game developers over 17 years!)

If you can cover ALL the game play of 40k, in less than 50 pages of A4.(Not codex books obviously.)
Then you have a good system !

I see now that there's been some complications on what the goal with all this is, so I thought I'd write it down here for all to see:

- The goal with this thread is to apply the WFB mechanics to Warhammer 40k with as few changes as possible, adding where need might be and generally making the two games work similarly. The goal is, for now, to make the game work in a 1000-1500 point range, focusing on Infantry the most - Many specialized and rare units might be left out until later.

Most of you, if any, will appreciate this I guess, but it's morsly something I do for myself anyway. The idea is to port mechanics that I know work in one game to another without having me need to learn and invent a lot of new stuff, and while directly porting isn't easy nor necessary in many cases, I believe that it's easier to do than you'd think.

Anyway, making the Unit Types, I realised that I should have looked at the USRs first, because so many changes depend on them. I'll list the USRs that will be in the game here, be they changed, added to, removed or simply left as is, so we can get a full list to work with later.

Letzzago!

------------------------------

Universal Special Rules.

*Acute Senses: Unchanged.

*Adamantium Will: Unchanged.

*And They Shall Know No Fear: A model with this rule has the Stubborn and Immune to Psychology, and always takes Ld checks on the unit's unmodified Leadership (I.e no Insane Heroics rolls).

*Assault Vehicle: Removed (Units do not move and charge in the same phase anymore).

*Armourbane: Removed.

*Armour Piercing: Added, as BRB, amount of added Armour Piercing written in brackets.

*Blast/Large Blast: As per the BRB, with the change that a unit hit takes as many wounds as are hit with the Blast and resolves them like where they made by Shooting Attacks; If an IC are hit, that hit is resolved against him/her only. Blasts can have split profiles, with the values in brackets (S 4 (3)) being the S value of the blast, and the S without brackets being the center of the Blast.

*Barrage: Now has Pinning again, as the Emperor Intended.

*Blind: Removed.

*Brotherhood of Psykers: Unchanged.

*Bulky, Very Bulky, Extremely Bulky: Unchanged.

*Concussive: Unchanged.

*Counter-Attack: Now requires an I test.

*Crusader: A unit with Crusader must always Pursue, and rolls 3d6" when Pursuing, picking the two highest dice.

*Daemon: Unchanged.

*Eternal Warrior: Unchanged.

*Fear: A unit charged by a unit, or in combat with a unit with Fear must make a Ld-check at the start of the Fight Phase; if failed, the unit is reduced to WS 1 until your next Fight Phase. Units with Fear are Immune to Fear.

*Fearless: As BRB, but cannot take Cover as well.

*Feel No Pain: Unchanged.

*Fleet: Unchanged, but cannot be used to Double Time (does not roll for Running anymore).

*Fleshbane: Removed.

*Frenzy: Added, as BRB, but may test to restrain Pursuit. Replaces Rage.

*Furious Charge: Unchanged.

*Get's Hot: Unchanged.

*Hammer of Wrath: Removed.

*Hatred: Unchanged.

*Haywire: Functions like Poisoned, but for Mechanical enemies. A To Wound roll of 6 on a Mechanical model has the Multiple Wounds (1d3) USR.

*Hit and Run: Hit and Run lets a unit exit combat like where it a Vehicle (move 3" away from the unit) in the Movement Phase and needs no test, letting the unit make any sort of normal Move they'd usually would make afterwards, governed by rules the rules for their unit type (I.e Wheeled Infantry must pivot, move 3", and then do a normal Move. If they have to move through the enemy unit to get out, they may do so, as long as they don't end up on top of the unit in any way.

*Ignore Armour New, ignores any Armour Save whatsoever.

*Ignore Cover: Ignores any negative To Hit modifier bestowed by Cover, Jink or Shrouded.

*Immune to Psychology: Added as BRB. Might be changed to a more "40k"-ish name (Zealous Dicipline?).

*Impact Hits: Added as BRB, replaces Hammer of Wrath (namechange, mostly).

*Infiltrate: As BRB, but can charge if going second.

*Instant Death: Unchanged.

*Interceptor: Removed.

*It Will Not Die!: Unchanged.

*Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow: Added as BRB.

*Jink: A unit with Jink who Double Times bestows a -1 To Hit to any enemy unit shooting at the unit, stacking with Cover.

*Lance: Weapons with Lance count units with a T value over 8 to have a T of 8.

*Large Target: Added as BRB, but does no benefit to models upon Large Targets.

*Master Crafted: Unchanged.

*Mechanical: New, immune to Poison but takes damage from Haywire.

*Melta: Weapons with Melta does Multiple Wounds (1d3) to Mechanical units.

*Missile Lock: Removed, lol.

*Monster Hunter: Removed.

*Move or Fire: Added.

*Move Through Cover: Removed.

*Multiple Shots: Added.

*Multiple Wounds: Added.

*Night Vision: Removed.

*Outflank: Unchanged.

*Pinning: Unchanged.

*Poisoned: As the BRB, but can now have S values of other than S 1.

*Power of the Machine Spirit: Removed.

*Prefered Enemy: Unchanged.

*Psychic Pilot: Removed (Models with this rule will have a Ld value anyway).

*Rage: Removed.

*Rampage: Unchanged.

*Relentless: Model with Relentless counts Move or Fire weapons as regular weapons.

*Rending: Unchanged.

*Scout: Unit can make a regular Move after all other units have been placed by both sides before the game starts. If you go first, Scouts cannot Charge in the first turn, similar to Infiltrate.

*Shred: Unchanged.

*Shrouded: Unit imposes a -1 to Hit upon enemies shooting at the unit, stacking with Cover, but NOT with Jink.

*Skilled Rider: Removed.

*Skyfire: Removed.

*Slow and Purposeful: Renamed to Slow, cannot Double Time or Pursue.

*Smash: Removed.

*Sniper: Can target Sergeants, Specialists and other unique models in a unit, plus ICs, instead of the unit itself, and has the Pinning and Rending USRs. The models can make Look out Sir! rolls, regardless of them being ICs or not.

*Soul Blaze: Removed.

*Specialist Weapon: Unchanged.

*Split Fire: Unchanged.

*Stealth: Unit imposes an -2 to Hit instead of -1 upon enemies shooting at the unit when the unit is in cover, but does NOT stack with Jink.

*Stomp and Thunderstomp: Added.

*Strafing Run: Removed.

*Skrikedown: Removed.

*Stubborn: Unit counts as always being Steadfast, and Goes to Ground instead of Fleeing when losing a 25% shooting Ld test.

*Supersonic: Removed.

*Swarms: Swarms take double wounds from Templates and have the Fearless USR.

*Tank Hunters: Removed.

*Terror: Added.

*Torrent: Unchanged.

*Twin-linked: Unchanged.

*Two-handed: Unchanged.

*Unwieldy: Unchanged.

*Vector Dancer: Removed.

*Vector Strike: Removed.

*Zealot: Unchanged.

-------------------------

Holy. Shi- I mean Emperor. That was a load of stuff! While this list might not be worth a lot, I do hope it gathers up many of my ideas and give them form in some way or other, so you guys get what I'm trying to do - Don't worry, I don't know most of the time, as all this confusion has led to

As a final note - I'm trying to make a game primarely with WFB rules and systems, but changed and adapted to fit 40k better. I realise they function different interely, and I'm looking to do something about that, but when it comes down to it, a lot of stuff is the same... Somewhat.

Imma go to bed now, fukkin tired. Please like comment and subscribe.

- The Wise Dane

If games of WHFB and 40K were modes of transport.
WHFB would be a diesel powered locomotive passenger train.
And 40k would be a jet powered passenger jumbo jet.
The game play is that different,

Trying to use the same 'engine' for both games when they work in completely different ways will compromise the game play.

(If you want to use convert a rule set to use with 40k , Epic might be a better place to start.Epic is where GW devs were allowed to write new rules for the 40k battle game after all.)

Anyhow if you want a run down of thing that need changing in the WHFB rules to make them work better with 40k.


a)Game turn mechanic.Change to alternating phases(or actions,) rather than game turns .
(Alternating game turn works fine for WHFB , it is completely 'wrong' for 40k battle game .)

B) Reduce resolution methods to just one apart from direct representation.Using seven is just silly and over complicates the game.
(I prefer opposed values for everything.With a 'universal resolution table' if needed.Similar to the to wound chart but with different values obviously.)

c)Include a few simple modifiers .

d) Allow full range of interaction based on the values used directly.(Not auto fail on a dice roll of 1 no matter what.)

If you do this you would reduce the reliance on special rules USRs to cover the game play the WHFB based rules do not cover.

I could write this out looking like a WHFB conversion if you like.(Referencing the basic concepts from WHFB that are modified for 40k.)
It would have the same net result of needing to change the current unit profiles though.Would you want me to do this?

Lanrak wrote:
If games of WHFB and 40K were modes of transport.
WHFB would be a diesel powered locomotive passenger train.
And 40k would be a jet powered passenger jumbo jet.
The game play is that different,

Trying to use the same 'engine' for both games when they work in completely different ways will compromise the game play.

(If you want to use convert a rule set to use with 40k , Epic might be a better place to start.Epic is where GW devs were allowed to write new rules for the 40k battle game after all.)

Anyhow if you want a run down of thing that need changing in the WHFB rules to make them work better with 40k.


a)Game turn mechanic.Change to alternating phases(or actions,) rather than game turns .
(Alternating game turn works fine for WHFB , it is completely 'wrong' for 40k battle game .)

B) Reduce resolution methods to just one apart from direct representation.Using seven is just silly and over complicates the game.
(I prefer opposed values for everything.With a 'universal resolution table' if needed.Similar to the to wound chart but with different values obviously.)

c)Include a few simple modifiers .

d) Allow full range of interaction based on the values used directly.(Not auto fail on a dice roll of 1 no matter what.)

If you do this you would reduce the reliance on special rules USRs to cover the game play the WHFB based rules do not cover.

I could write this out looking like a WHFB conversion if you like.(Referencing the basic concepts from WHFB that are modified for 40k.)
It would have the same net result of needing to change the current unit profiles though.Would you want me to do this?

Okay, I'm sorry if I come off as annoyed, but I'm getting the feeling that you don't really get what I've been telling you the last three posts. I'm NOT trying to make a system that supports 40k BETTER, I'm REPLACING some systems and functions within the game with similar functions from a similar game. It was NEVER the plan to make the game more "40k"-like or improve upon the game at all - The plan was to do something different with the game and the system. I'm not trying to re-invent it, or add new mechanics (at least not just for the cause of inventing stuff), I'm just changing the mechanics. Cover? Now a modifier like WFB. Charging and Movement? Now done in the same phase. All sidegrades. I'm not trying to make the game function better as a 40k game, just using the mechanics I like more.

Also, when we are touching upon that, you have frequently stated that the WFB mechanics won't work for 40k is a "different game"... Sure, it plays differently, and there's a heightened focus on shooting compared to WFB, but the general mechanics are the same, with a few changes made to each game (For example, Fantasy uses Rank and File while 40k uses Squads) to make them stand out - But they still fundementally function the same. So, when you repeatetely use the arguement that "It won't work with the type of game 40k is", I just think... Why? What kind of game is it you believe 40k is? What is so fundementally different between the two games that we can, in no way possible, use the mechanics from WFB? What is it exactly that makes the 40k Cover Rules clearly superior to the WFB Cover rules? You never explain that to me, but simply state that I can't. I can't use that notion to a damn thing.

Call it arrogant or egoistic, but this thread is about a project I've started, for myself, and posted here to let people point out things, that need editting for the new mechanics to function properly. It's NOT a thread about making the superior system to 40k, or thread to post opposing ideas, but a thread about replacing some mechanics with others, while keeping the general game like it is. What's worth questioning could be "Should Crisis Suits be Monstrous Jet Infantry or just Jet Infantry?" or "Should the Dinobots be Mechanical or not?". Just saying that "It won't work, here's my own original idea instead" is completely irrelevant, and not really useful.

Don't get me wrong, your ideas are sounds as far as I can see, but they have nothing to do with this thread. I'm happy that you are eager to help and support me, but if you have no plan to actually add to the goal of the thread, then you aren't helping me, or yourself for that matter - It would be better to make your own thread at that point instead.

Ok, with a view to using modern day fantasy rules in 40k. Here are the similarities between second edition 40k and fantasy:

1) % Based force organisation charts.

2) All creatures have their own 'Movement' characteristic.

3) Armour saves are modified by Strength values similar to fantasy.

4) Fliers and super heavies are not easily available.

5) Wounding a creature with a weapon with a Strength double the creature's Toughness does not cause instant death.

6) I believe you are allowed to take a save for a force field in addition to an armour save.

If you have the opportunity, it's worth looking into. It might provide you with a ready made solution to what you're trying to achieve.

Berserkerblade wrote:
Ok, with a view to using modern day fantasy rules in 40k. Here are the similarities between second edition 40k and fantasy:

1) % Based force organisation charts.

2) All creatures have their own 'Movement' characteristic.

3) Armour saves are modified by Strength values similar to fantasy.

4) Fliers and super heavies are not easily available.

5) Wounding a creature with a weapon with a Strength double the creature's Toughness does not cause instant death.

6) I believe you are allowed to take a save for a force field in addition to an armour save.

If you have the opportunity, it's worth looking into. It might provide you with a ready made solution to what you're trying to achieve.

Somebody else mentioned this, and that's clearly something I should take a peak at... Can you remember any points that would be different to modern day 7th Ed or Fantasy 8th Ed? I actually like a lot of the stuff we have today in 7th, and want to bring that stuff in if it's good (Some units, like Ogryns and Centurions would get downright great with the above-mentioned buffs), but if it's already in 2nd Ed, maybe I should just take a look at that?...

The major differences between 40k 2nd and 40k 7th (and they are many and varied!) are as follows:

1) Fighting in hand to hand uses an archaic system whereby models fight on a 'one on one' basis. Essentially each player rolls a number of dice equal to the model's attack characteristic. The players then add the WS of the model to their highest dice roll. The difference between the two values is the number of hits inflicted on the losing model. There are a few other rules for criticals, parries and fumbles but essentially that's it. It can make for some really exciting moments, but it quickly gets tiresome when dealing with large units.

2) Several units exist now which didn't exist back then (Centurions for example). You could always homebrew rules if necessary to plug the gaps.

3) Sustained fire!! Rapid fire heavy weapons (heavy bolters, assault cannons etc.) are able to roll a number of d3 to determine the number of shots fired. (2d3 for a heavy bolter and 3d3 for an assault cannon). However they can jam and in the case of the assault cannon, explode!

4) Heavy weapons often cause multiple wounds in a single hit (much like a fantasy cannon?) I think a Lascannon is capable of 2d6 wounds?!

I realise now that I've started listing these that I could go on forever. Vehicles and bikes have particularly peculiar rules. As do psykers. Oh, and terminators roll their armour save on 2d6 and add the values together.

Here is a link to the 40k 2nd ed battle bible.You may find it useful..www.kerlin.de/pic/antik_40k/.../Warhammer-40k-Battle-Bible-1-51.pdf

Now that we've got all the basic stuff out of the way, Imma start going through the Codeces one at a time - There's undoubtably a lot of stuff that need work, but right now, I feel the most important thing is to get the game working. After that, I'd like to add to the game, mostly in the form of Subfactions for each Codex (Chaos Marines!) and unique stuff. Feel free to add fluffy ideas

I was just about to begin working on the Space Marines Codex, but as I worked through it, I saw how much of it depended on the weaponry and how they are supposed to function in game. So, I've instead made an article on the usual weapons that can be found in Imperial Armies, mostly so you guys can judge my choices... There's a lot of Multiple Shots in particular, which seem a bit fishy to me, so please discuss liberally.

Anyway, here you go:

--------------------------------

General Weaponry

*Ranged Weapons.

**Bolters.
***Bolt Pistol: Unchanged.
***Bolter: Unchanged.
***Storm Bolter: Gets the Multiple Shots (1d3) USR.
***Heavy bolter: Gets the Multiple Shots (2d3) and Move or Fire USRs.

**Plasma: All Plasma weapons get the Armour Piercing (-3) and Gets Hot USRs.
***Plasma Pistol: Unchanged.
***Plasmagun: Unchanged.
***Plasma Blaster: Gets Multiple Shots (2) USR.
***Plasma Cannon: Has S 7, Multiple Wounds (1d3) in the center, (S 5) in the Blast, and the Move or Fire USR.
***Plasma Destroyer: As Plasma Cannon, but with the Multiple Shots (3) USR.

**Melta: All Melta get Ignore Armour and the Melta USR.
***Inferno Pistol: Unchanged.
***Meltagun: Unchanged.
***Multi-melta: Does NOT get Move or Fire.

**Flamers: Unchanged interely.

**Grav: Unchanged - Only hurts Vehicles on a To Wound of 6, and forces the Vehicle to not move next turn. Also has the Ignore Armour USR.
***Grav-pistol: Unchanged.
***Gravgun: Unchanged.
***Gravcannon: Gain Multiple Shots (3).

**Special Weapons.
***Sniper Rifle: S 5, gains Sniper.
***Shotgun: S 4, gains Concussive.

**Heavy Weapons:
***Lascannon: Gains Ignore Armour.
***Assault Cannon: Retooled - Is S 4, Multiple Shots (2d6), but not Rending.
***Autocannon: Gain Multiple Shots (2d3).
***Missile Launcher: Frag is S 4 (3) Blast, Krak is unchanged, Flakk is removed.

*Melee Weapons:

**Regular.
***Combat Knife: Unchanged.
***Chainsword: Gains Shred.

**Power Weapons.
***Power Sword: Gains Armour Piercing (-2).
***Power Axe: Gains Armour Piercing (-3).
***Power Maul: Unchanged.
***Power Fist: Gains Ignore Armour and Multiple Wounds (1d3).
***Thunder Hammer: Gains Ignore Armour.
*** Lightning Claw: Gains Armour Piercing (-3).

-------------------------

As mentioned, I'm very much in two minds here. Especially the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon is giving me hell, and I'm begging to wonder if I should have made different sub-types of Ranged Weaponry anyway, something I originally didn't want to do.

Please let me hear your thoughts on these changes

- The Wise Dane

Hey, Wise dane! I always love seeing people excited about their projects. I read the first page of this thread pretty thoroughly, and I've been skimming the second page, so I apologize if I say something that's already been addressed. I really like some of your ideas here, but I worry that they'll seriously hamper some units in the game. Also, you risk seriously alienating a large number of units with some of your changes, so you'll either have to simply accept nerfing them or complicate your efforts further by taking them into account.

Movement stats seem like an alright idea by me, but not a great one. Keeping track of a unique movement stat for each unit in the game is not easier to remember than "does it move 6" or 12"? even if there's a lot of overlap. Having some attachable/independent characters move slightly faster or slower than the units they're attached to adds to this problem. Plus, too much differentiation can potentially make some units scary fast or frustratingly slow. Only moving 'crons 3" or 4" a turn is going to be miserable for anything not inside a ghost ark. It would take a foot squad 2 or 3 turns (depending on if they have the luxury of double timing without penalizing themselves) to cover the distance they'd normallyt ravel with *just* a move roll in 2 turns. Letting fast units be fast (like eldar or daemonettes) is probably less problematic, but maybe just reflect that as +3" when you double time (which daemonettes already get, essentially)?

I'm iffy on the difficult terrain rules too. What if they simply halved your movement or reduced it by 2" or something if you pass through it at all as part of your movement? It would still hinder charges and slow armies down, but you wouldn't have the frustration of failing to move a unit of marines out of a twisted copse entirely.

I'm not a huge fan of percentile armies. Forcing people to have a large number of troops doesn't feel quite as appropriate for 40k as it does for Fantasy. Sometime, a pair of tac or scout squads is all you really need to bring on your surgical strike mission. Plus, there's (sadly) a prevalent feeling that troops are sort of a tax. I'm pretty sure you don't want to force people to buy/bring more models that they're unhappy with to a game. I actually liked the idea presented above of having each hq unlock X troops, and every 2 troops gives you a specialist or what have you, and then you have formations or hq options that let you treat some specialists as a step less rare, but that still doesn't feel like a perfect system to me.

I'm very iffy on the -1BS from cover thing. It makes different types of cover pointless (which I'm not a fan of), and I worry that it potentially throws off the survivability of some units.

The armor penalty system I am not fond of. I tried it out. It makes no real difference for things that normally have 5+ armor saves (as they're accustomed to not surviving), but things like marines or fire warriors or even terminators just get torn apart by armor reduction.

The range penalty to BS and one shot only rule makes me cringe. :( It's fine for things like marines that usually want to be within half range anyway, but you're now telling snipers that they need to be within 18" if they want to hit anything. Facing a powerful gunline is rough, but being told your long-ranged units are being punished for being long ranged isn't especially helpful either. Also, some weapons are all about being multi shot. Lasblasters, for instance. Rolling randomly to determine how many shots weapons get would be annoying and make it hard to gauge how potent your weapon is going to be against a given target. Save it for the lootas. The solution to simplify it would be to give some weapons a set multi-shot value, but then you might as well just let everything have the number of shots the Emperor intended.

Plus, hordes become *much* more effective when you limit the number of shots a unit can put out. Normally, an exceptionally lucky squad of bolter marines can kill up to 20 termagants. Now? 10. This rule doesn't really seem to help simplify anything to me. It doesn't cut a step out of the equation; it just makes you roll fewer dice at a time. I'm guessing that all shooting in Fantasy is single-shot, and that makes sense for bows and muskets. I know you want to encourage melee as well, but don't punish shooty armies for being shooty.

Making vehicles more like Monstrous Creatures could probably work just fine, but pleeeease don't let guardsmen blobs kill land raiders with lasguns. :(

Your "contagious panic" stuff is way too nasty. I get wanting to make leadership more important in the game, but I think the simplest way to do that is to simply nerf ATSKNF. Many books these days have access to Fear and other rules that interact with leadership. The issue is that half the armies you'll run into in most metas are marine armies who ignore all those rules. The contagious panic thing just has the potential to want to give up a game early. Having one unit have a bad day against a death star and get swept, then having any units that had the audacity to support that unit by getting too close (which they'll have to with your BS range penalties) potentially start running away too is pretty rough. Even if I had a chance to regroup all of them before they run off the board, I'm not sure I'd really want to. Watching a big chunk of your army running away all at once while your opponent has fun mopping up the leftovers sounds miserable. If I read correctly, this gets even worse when losing three of my flimsy guardians to shooting can potentially cause all their buddies to freak out.

That said, I like the idea of a "legion tactic" for Night Lords that causes nearby units to take morale tests after the Night Lords sweep something. That's niche enough to be reasonable.

Your special rules look pretty well implemented at a glance. Things like melta potentially doing more wounds would help offset having a large number of wounds on a vehicle which in turn would help offset a vehicle's vulnerability to small arms fire.

Overall, I think you're handling your changes very well. I personally just don't like many of them, and I don't think these rules can be said to "simplify" 40k so much as exchange one form of complication for another.

Wow, thank you! I'm simply amazed by your thoughts here, and I must say that there's quite a lot of stuff that I didn't think much of before your comment, so I've got a lot to think about! I'm also very happy that you've gone though all this with such detail, so I guess it's only fair for me to do so in kind, huh?

Movement stats seem like an alright idea by me, but not a great one. Keeping track of a unique movement stat for each unit in the game is not easier to remember than "does it move 6" or 12"? even if there's a lot of overlap. Having some attachable/independent characters move slightly faster or slower than the units they're attached to adds to this problem. Plus, too much differentiation can potentially make some units scary fast or frustratingly slow. Only moving 'crons 3" or 4" a turn is going to be miserable for anything not inside a ghost ark. It would take a foot squad 2 or 3 turns (depending on if they have the luxury of double timing without penalizing themselves) to cover the distance they'd normallyt ravel with *just* a move roll in 2 turns. Letting fast units be fast (like eldar or daemonettes) is probably less problematic, but maybe just reflect that as +3" when you double time (which daemonettes already get, essentially)?

You hit the nail pretty much perfectly here: I don't actually care that much about all units moving a set range (like 6" or 12"), my problem is with the overlap. While I know that your normal Guardsman always move 6", when other factors, like Crusaders, Fleet and running goes into the mix, I simply cannot remember it all. I have to look at different USRs and look up the Unit rules before I can even move a normal unit! I made a whole transfer sheet with references to different Units for this very reason... But I must agree that Necrons would be too slow with 4". That Idea was mostly based on my personal preference of Necrons moving more shambly-zombie-like, and less like everyobdy else - Adding some sort of unability to take cover, a reduction to WS and BS and then a real meaty point reduction would make that a reality. But as you say it, I can see what you mean... Anyway, I think It'll be best to keep M rates, because some units, like Trukks or Bikes, move much faster than others, and I feel that's better to represent in the statline than in some USRs. The Fleet giving +3" for Double Timing seems pretty sound, though.

I'm iffy on the difficult terrain rules too. What if they simply halved your movement or reduced it by 2" or something if you pass through it at all as part of your movement? It would still hinder charges and slow armies down, but you wouldn't have the frustration of failing to move a unit of marines out of a twisted copse entirely.

This is where I go "Does this make sense rulewise, rather than narratively?", and I came up with the conclusion that making units, who traditionally needs cover to survive slower doesn't do anything to add to that unit at all. It takes away and gives in equal measure, and Infantry isn't exactly stellar as is anyway. I get why you'd want it, but I feel it defeats the "rock, paper, scissor" apporach that 40k uses (This unit is hard to shoot down? Then charge it. This unit is hard to kill in melee? Drown it in shots). So, if a unit in cover is hard against chargers AND shooters, they're basically just hard, and only for sitting in cover, which really doesn't require any skill of note. Hindering charges and slowing charging units down also concerned me, simply because it takes away CCs main role, which is to clear out units that can't be duck up with a Bolter. I'm givin' that back to them

I'm not a huge fan of percentile armies. Forcing people to have a large number of troops doesn't feel quite as appropriate for 40k as it does for Fantasy. Sometime, a pair of tac or scout squads is all you really need to bring on your surgical strike mission. Plus, there's (sadly) a prevalent feeling that troops are sort of a tax. I'm pretty sure you don't want to force people to buy/bring more models that they're unhappy with to a game. I actually liked the idea presented above of having each hq unlock X troops, and every 2 troops gives you a specialist or what have you, and then you have formations or hq options that let you treat some specialists as a step less rare, but that still doesn't feel like a perfect system to me.

To say it like it is: I don't either. Percentile armies force you to pick uits you might not have wanted before, and while it makes a certain sense in WFB, where every army actually IS an army, it makes less sense in 40k, where a good load of the armies precent are strike forces or raiders. What percent does, though, is that it makes all armies pick units completely equally. That's not necessarily fair to all factions, as some factions do their work in the Special or Rare sections, but that's the kicker - If all armies at least have to take this "tax", they have to make them work. No one will ever try and make Tacs work now, because they are simple said to be bad, but if you are forced to take a good load of them, you'll need to think of ways to make them click.

Besides, the Core section will be improved upon in various ways - For example, I plan on adding Predators to the Core of the Space Marines, among others, and Tacticals are the one unit I really look forward to "de-taxifing"... Did anyone say "Combat Knives"?...

I'm very iffy on the -1BS from cover thing. It makes different types of cover pointless (which I'm not a fan of), and I worry that it potentially throws off the survivability of some units.

Yeah, it is iffy. I just can't think of a way to do it differently. I want to go with the BS Modifier format, but what do you do then with different Covers? -2 BS? That would make some units scary durable! I'm not so scared of some units becoming durable, though, as that would just open up options - Nowadays, the way you think when designing a unit is "How can this unit remove an opposing unit from the game?", which, to me, is a luxury question - the question should rather be "How do i do enough damage to this unit as to make it Pinned, Flee, or at least a bit less durable when I charge it?".

The armor penalty system I am not fond of. I tried it out. It makes no real difference for things that normally have 5+ armor saves (as they're accustomed to not surviving), but things like marines or fire warriors or even terminators just get torn apart by armor reduction.

I don't know what system you used, but in this game we'll be using a "4-6-8-10" system, meaning that a S 4 weapon will reduce -1, S 6 -2, and so on. This means that you need a Railgun to completely remove the save off of a Marine! I realize that it might be very damaging to some units, but, at least of what I've tested, it only adds suvivability. Put a Tac squad in Cover, and you get one hard-ass unit!

The range penalty to BS and one shot only rule makes me cringe. :( It's fine for things like marines that usually want to be within half range anyway, but you're now telling snipers that they need to be within 18" if they want to hit anything. Facing a powerful gunline is rough, but being told your long-ranged units are being punished for being long ranged isn't especially helpful either. Also, some weapons are all about being multi shot. Lasblasters, for instance. Rolling randomly to determine how many shots weapons get would be annoying and make it hard to gauge how potent your weapon is going to be against a given target. Save it for the lootas. The solution to simplify it would be to give some weapons a set multi-shot value, but then you might as well just let everything have the number of shots the Emperor intended.

Plus, hordes become *much* more effective when you limit the number of shots a unit can put out. Normally, an exceptionally lucky squad of bolter marines can kill up to 20 termagants. Now? 10. This rule doesn't really seem to help simplify anything to me. It doesn't cut a step out of the equation; it just makes you roll fewer dice at a time. I'm guessing that all shooting in Fantasy is single-shot, and that makes sense for bows and muskets. I know you want to encourage melee as well, but don't punish shooty armies for being shooty.

I would be ignorant to not completely agree with you here.... Just, holy hell. I thought it was so clever when I wrote the rule, but now? Just, wow. This is a mess xD What I originally intended was to completely ignore the different subtypes of weaponry, because I feel it could be simplified... But, I see now that I only made it worse. We'll go back to different weapon subtypes, and a specific number of shots for each...

Concerning Movement penalties, I was very much in two minds. I didn't want to penalize movement, but on the other hand, I didn't just want to let all units move and shoot at full range all the time. Recently, I though about doing a weird thing remiscent of the Rapid Fire rule, where a unit has the range penalty ONLY when they move, but to compensate, all units with Rapid Fire usually shoot two shots. Something like this:

Combat Rifle (Bolters, Lasguns): Shoots two shots, get half-range penalty if the unit moves.
Assault Rifle (Stormbolters, Pulse Carbines, Shuriken Catapults): Never get range penalty, has the Multiple Shots (double the amount of shots the gun usually shoots) USR.
Heavy Weapon: Differs, always has Move or Fire.

What'cha think?

Making vehicles more like Monstrous Creatures could probably work just fine, but pleeeease don't let guardsmen blobs kill land raiders with lasguns. :(

Never got why people don't like that. You need a truckload of them to do any real damage, and as far as I'm concerned, a Lasgun is still plenty powerful. Read somewhere that your usual Lasgun will explode your belly and turn it to plasma, throw you backwards from the blast, which will also break bones and concuss you... No, it won't do much to armoured plates, but still - If you don't want your Land Raider to take wounds from Lasguns, don't let them survive that long

Your "contagious panic" stuff is way too nasty. I get wanting to make leadership more important in the game, but I think the simplest way to do that is to simply nerf ATSKNF. Many books these days have access to Fear and other rules that interact with leadership. The issue is that half the armies you'll run into in most metas are marine armies who ignore all those rules. The contagious panic thing just has the potential to want to give up a game early. Having one unit have a bad day against a death star and get swept, then having any units that had the audacity to support that unit by getting too close (which they'll have to with your BS range penalties) potentially start running away too is pretty rough. Even if I had a chance to regroup all of them before they run off the board, I'm not sure I'd really want to. Watching a big chunk of your army running away all at once while your opponent has fun mopping up the leftovers sounds miserable. If I read correctly, this gets even worse when losing three of my flimsy guardians to shooting can potentially cause all their buddies to freak out.

That said, I like the idea of a "legion tactic" for Night Lords that causes nearby units to take morale tests after the Night Lords sweep something. That's niche enough to be reasonable.

You're right - It's nasty as feth, and it's not supposed to be. However, I plan on helping all codexes deal with it in different ways - In Fantasy, all factions can pick a "Battle Standard Bearer", which will allow any unit within 12" of it to re-roll Leadership, and if the General is in there too, it'll often be Ld 9, re-rollable, which is pretty hard. Most factions don't have that in 40k, so instead, I think I'll do something, where the General of the army has an Inspiring Presence of 18", which let all units do Ld on his Ld instead, which will often be very high. Other factions will have BSBs, like Imperial Guard, or might have an HQ that helps with Ld in general, like Ethereals. It's also possible that some Heroes might get a smaller Inspiring Presence, to function like lieutenants.

On another note though, running from people shooting at you makes sense in Fantasy, but not so much 40k - Maybe all units should just test for Pinning when taking 25% Shooting casulties instead? That would still let Stubborn be pretty hardcore, but might then need to be removed from ATSKNF... I dunno. On the other hand, don't your Guardians have Ld 8? That should be suffecient to keep them topside, and if not, find yourself some Warlocks

Finally, maybe Panic should only happen upon total destruction of a unit - I mean, it's 40k, people dying is pretty standard here. But a whole unit being removed by some crazy-ass super-soldier with bloody armour and gory Power-axes?...

Your special rules look pretty well implemented at a glance. Things like melta potentially doing more wounds would help offset having a large number of wounds on a vehicle which in turn would help offset a vehicle's vulnerability to small arms fire.

Thank you! That was the point, so I'm happy I got through with it

Overall, I think you're handling your changes very well. I personally just don't like many of them, and I don't think these rules can be said to "simplify" 40k so much as exchange one form of complication for another.

Yeah, you're properly right, I only know that the things that confuse me isn't a lot of different numbers (I can remember most of the numbers from the AM codex off hand, and I haven't even read it!), but numbers that collate and fucntion the same for different units. Unit Types in particular is my bane. Fantasy just goes "Here's some stats, go nuts", while 40k goes "Here's a bunch of different names for rules, see if you can remember them", and I don't like that.... Same with vehicles. It might represent vehicles better to do the AV thing, but it's a whole other ruleset, and if there's one thing I cannot stand, it's different rulesets that could've been using a single one.

But... All the things you've pointed out are valid points, and I need to take a look of what I've got, and do some changes. Many of my concerns were answered, and a few was found that I didn't think would be a problem, and for that, I can only say: Thank you

- The Wise Dane.

Working on the future post on the Marines, I found that I'd made some rules that simply didn't make sense - I'm talking about both USRs and weapon rules, and so, I took some time out of my day to re-write them and make them, well, easier to follow. I've also removed the USRs that wasn't meant to be in the game anyway and categorized them for easy access and readability.

Coming up is the rules for Ranged Weapons!

-------------------

Universal Special Rules - Revised.

*Leadership:

- And They Shall Know No Fear: A model with this rule has the Immune to Fear and Terror and Stubborn USRs, and can choose to fail Ld tests.
- Fear: A unit charged by a unit, or in combat with a unit with Fear must make a Ld-check at the start of the Fight Phase; if failed, the unit is reduced to WS 1 until your next Fight Phase. Units with Fear are Immune to Fear.
- Fearless: The unit always succeeds Leadership tests.
- Immune to Fear and Terror: Unit is immune to the effects of Fear and Terror.
- Immune to Psychology: Unit is immune to the effects of Fear and Terror, and never takes Panic Tests from destroyed units.
- Inspiring Presence: All friendly units at least partially within the Inspiring Presence range rolls 3d6 when rolling Ld, and discards the highest. The range differs, depending on the Force Slot it is from: Lords have 18", Heroes 12" and all other models have 6".
- Stubborn: Unit counts as always being Steadfast.
- Terror: A unit charged by a unit, but NOT in combat with a unit with Terror must make a Ld-check immideatly; if failed, the unit must elect to Flee. Units with Terror are Immune to both Terror and Fear, and has the Fear USR.


*Psychic:

- Adamantium Will: Unit gains 1+ to Dispel/Deny the Witch attempts.
- Brotherhood of Psykers: Unit counts as one Psyker, using the Ld of the Sergeant, if available, for Psychic tests, and fires the power from any model in the group. Perils of the Warp are taken on a random model in the unit.


*Deployment:

- Acute Senses: A unit with Acute Senses can always choose where to come in when Outflanking.
- Infiltrate: After deploying normal units, but before Scouts, you may place an Infiltrating unit at least 18" away from the nearest enemy unit, or 12" away if your unit is completely unseen by enemy units. Infiltrators going first cannot Charge in the first turn. A unit with Infiltrate also has the Outflank USR.
- Outflank: When the unit comes in from Reserves, roll a die - On a 1-2, come in from the left side, 3-4 on the right side, 5-6 on either side
- Scout: Unit can make a regular Move after all other units have been placed by both sides before the game starts. If you go first, Scouts cannot Charge in the first turn, similar to Infiltrate.


*Movement:

- Crusader: A unit with Crusader must always Pursue, and rolls 3d6" when Pursuing, picking the two highest dice.
- Fleet: A Fleet unit adds 2+ M to all Charge, Pursue, Double Time and Flee moves.
- Hit and Run: Hit and Run lets a unit exit combat like where it a Vehicle (move 3" away from the unit) in the Movement Phase and needs no test, letting the unit make any sort of normal Move they'd usually would make afterwards, excluding Charges. This move is governed by the rules for their unit type (I.e Wheeled Infantry must pivot, move 3", and then do a normal Move.) If they have to move through the enemy unit to get out, they may do so, as long as they don't end up on top of the unit in any way.
- Jink: Units with Jink who Double Times bestows a -1 To Hit to any enemy unit shooting at the unit, stacking with Cover.
- Relentless: Models with Relentless always counts as not having moved for the purpose of shooting.
- Slow: A unit with Slow cannot Double Time or Pursue.


*Weapons:

- Armour Piercing: Weapon ignores an extra point of Armour for each point of added Armour Piercing written in brackets. (i.e Armour Piercing (-1) reduces enemy armour save for an extra point, reducing a 5+ to a 6+)
- Get's Hot: On a To Hit roll of 1, the unit hits itself with a S 3 hit.
- Haywire: Functions like Poisoned, but for Mechanical enemies. A To Wound roll of 6 on a Mechanical model has the Multiple Wounds (1d3) USR.
- Ignore Armour New, ignores any Armour Save whatsoever.
- Instant Death: Any Wound caused by a Instant Death weapon automatically causes as many Wounds as the recipient model has.
- Melta: Weapons with Melta does Multiple Wounds (1d3) to Mechanical units.
- Multiple Wounds: When a model takes a Wound by a Multiple Wounds weapon, apply the designated amount of Wounds to the model instead of one Wound.
- Poisoned: A Poisoned weapon always Wounds on a designated roll or, unless a lower To Wound roll is needed. If undesignated, the rule counts as Poisoned (+4). A Poisoned Weapon hitting a unit with lower T than the weapon has S, all failed To Wound rolls may be re-rolled.
- Rending: A Rending weapon has the Ignore Armour USR on a To Wound roll of 6.
- Shred: Failed To Wound roll made with a weapon with Shred may be re-rolled.


*Shooting:

- Blast/Large Blast: When shooting a Blast weapon, roll the Scatter Dice: On a Hit, you can place the center of the Blast whereever you wish within the range of the weapon. On a Scatter, move the Blast the direction the arrow points as many inches as you rolled, removing an inch for each point of BS the shooter has. A unit hit takes as many wounds as are hit with the Blast and resolves them like where they made by Shooting Attacks; If an IC are hit, that hit is resolved against him/her only. Blasts can have split profiles, with the values in brackets (S 4 (3)) being the S value of the blast, and the S without brackets being the center of the Blast.
- Barrage: A Barrage weapon never needs Line of Sight, but does not subtract inches of BS from any Scatter value. If a unit contains several Barrages, a Scatter makes any Blast after the first move to the edge of the first Blast in the direction the arrow points, while any Hits can be placed wherever you want, as long as it touches the first Blast and doesn't overshoot the range of the weapon. Barrage Weapons have the Pinning USR.
- Ignore Cover: Ignores any negative To Hit modifier bestowed by Cover, Jink or Shrouded.
- Lance: Weapons with Lance count units with a T value over 8 to have a T of 8.
- Master Crafted: One missed attack with this weapon can be re-rolled per turn.
- Move or Fire: The weapon cannot be fired if the unit moved this turn.
- Multiple Shots: The model using the weapon can elect to shoot the amount of shots designated in brackets, but at BS -1. Shots fired this way have the Pinning USR.
- Pinning: A unit taking a Wound from a Pinning weapon must take a Ld test - If failed, the unit Goes to Ground immideatly after all shots have been resolved.
- Sniper: Can target Sergaents, Specialists and other unique models in a unit, plus ICs, instead of the unit itself. The models can make Look out Sir! rolls, regardless of them being ICs or not.
- Split Fire: The unit can choose to direct its shooting to multiple targets.
- Torrent: Allows the template to be placed wherever and however you want, as long as it is completely within the range of the weapon.
- Twin-linked: A Twin-linked weapon can re-roll missed shots.


*Close Combat:

- Concussive: A unit hit with a Concussive Weapon most roll a I test - If failed, the unit is reduced to I 1 until the end of the Fight Phase - Only Grenades and Melee Weapons can have this rule.
- Counter-Attack: When the unit is charged, roll an I test: If succesful, the unit gains 1+ A for the first Fight Phase.
- Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow: Any To Hit of 6 against Infantry and Cavalry has the Instant Death rule - Heroic Killing Blow can do so against all models.
- Frenzy: Unit has +1 A, but must make a Ld check every time the unit is within charge range of an enemy unit - If failed, the unit MUST charge the closest opposing unit. The unit cannot elect to restrain pursuit.
- Furious Charge: The unit has S +1 in the Fight Phase it charged.
- Hatred: The unit re-rolls all To Hit in the Fight Phase it charged.
- Impact Hits: Before any attacks are rolled, a charging unit with this rule does the number of attacks designated in brackets for each model in Combat at the unit's base S (though modifiers like Furious Charge can apply). If no amount of hits are designated, each model does one hit. Impact Hits automatically Hit, but does not automatically Wound.
- Rampage: A unit out-numbered by at least 1:2 gain + 1d3 A.
- Specialist Weapon: A weapon with the Specialist Rule.
- Stomp and Thunderstomp: Like Impact Hits, but are resolved directly after all regular attacks are made. A Stomp can only be made against Infantry, while Thunderstomp can be made against any target except other Monsters and Vehicles, and does1d6 Hits.
- Two-handed: A Two-handed weapon can never recieve extra A for using an extra Close Combat weapon.
- Unwieldy: Unweildy weapons hit at I 1, regardless of the I of the attacking model.


*Model Rules:

- Bulky, Very Bulky, Extremely Bulky: The model fills up 2, 3 and 5 Transport Spaces, respectivelly.
- Eternal Warrior: The model cannot suffer Instant Death.
- Daemon: Daemons have the Fear USR, and always counts as having a 5++ Invulnerability Save.
- Feel No Pain: After taking a Wound, a model with Feel No Pain can roll a die for each unsaved Wound - If the roll beats the designated roll, the model ignores the Wound. If not otherwise stated, the roll is a (5+).
- It Will Not Die!: At the Start of Turn step, a model with It Will Not Die can choose to roll a die - If the roll beats the designated roll, the model regains a Wound. If not otherwise stated, the roll is a (5+).
- Mechanical: A mechanical model ignores the Poisoned USR.
- Prefered Enemy: The model re-rolls 1's to Hit with any weapon against the type of model designated in brackets. If no model is designated, the model re-rolls against all (!) models.
- Shrouded: Unit imposes a -1 to Hit upon enemies shooting at the unit, stacking with Cover, but NOT with Jink.
- Stealth: Unit imposes an -2 to Hit instead of -1 upon enemies shooting at the unit when the unit is in cover, but does NOT stack with Jink.
- Swarms: Swarms take double wounds from Templates and Blasts.

-------------------------------

Now it's nice and tidy! I hope you can see through it all easier now, because I certainly can! Next up is the rules for different Shooting Weapons - And then, Space Marines!

Have any comments, please do write them here - I can't very well do all this without input

- The Wise Dane

Far to many special rules.(My favorite edition of WHFB only had 10 special rules, and one 'racial rule' for each army.)

Would suggest using 'unit sizes' in the standard rules .EG size 1 to 5 .Size 3 is normal unit size.With the outliers getting +/- to hit .Also this would allow cover to have sizes.
So that a Size 5 model. can not claim cover in from a a size 2 wall for example.

Here is my take on Fear and Terror.
Fear should just cause a LD test if the target unit is outnumbered by a charging fear causing unit.
(Or a unit wanting to charge a fear causing unit that outnumbers the attacker.)
A fear causing unit winning an assault , inflicts an additional -1 LD penalty to the looser.

Terror should have an effective range.Outside of this range the unit is classed as causing fear.
Any unit that does not cause fear or terror , has to take a LD test at -2 when they are within the 'Terror range' of a Terror causing unit, or being charged by a Terror causing unit.

Terror causing units are immune to Fear and Terror.
Fear causing units, or Fearless units are immune to fear , but class Terror as Fear.

ATSKNF. Ignore the penalties for charging or being charged by Fear causing units.And class Terror as Fear.

Just some ideas..