Has the Third Sphere Expansion failed?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**endlesswaltz123**

Assuming the Tau do number in the trillions on their planets (a little unlikely, considering their life span and relative youth as a race) the imperium doesn't have to conquer their worlds, they just have to get into orbit. That's going to be one of the main differences between pre-heresy era Imperium, and the current era imperium in the fluff. Pre-heresy, they were all about the expansion of the empire. In current 40k, they are all about maintaining/defending the empire, and well, if there has never been a human settlement on the tau planets they are attacking (which will be outside the empire), and they don't deem it to have worthy resources then it's cyclone missile time... Don't have to worry about killing all them tau with only 10 million guardsmen when you can deal with them with the click of a button.

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.

**Iron_Captain**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Dwarving the Imperial armies on Armageddon is not hard at all. The Imperial force in the Third War for Armageddon was tiny. According to Codex: Armageddon, there were 305 IG regiments deployed to Armageddon (including PDF). Assuming an average size of ten thousand guardsmen per regiment (regiments can range between a few thousand to tens of thousand), that would give a total Imperial Guard force of a little more than 3 million. That is tiny considering the scale of the Imperium. For comparison, the German force that invaded the Soviet Union was 3.8 million strong.
40k writers just lack any sense of scale, they just throw around random numbers.

While I agree GW lacks a sense of scale one could argue that the Armageddon sizes were so small because the PDF numbers weren't included. As such an important hive world it is plausible that, especially after the Orks invaded again, conscription led to vast armies that were not technically a prat of the Imperial Guard.

Despite that the passage noting than 1000 Imperial Guard regiments were destined for the Tau Empire implies that it is a significant force that is being sent (which is likely more important than the actual numbers in my opinion).

The numbers already include the local PDF. 120 regiments of Armageddon Hive Militia.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't understand your point in relation to mine.

I used your point about the Imperial force on Armageddon to illustrate that any numbers given in 40k fluff should be taken with truckloads of salt as they are often unrealistic or downright impossible because 40k writers (and sci fi writers in general) often have little sense of scale.
Realistically, if a single nation-state on a single planet is already able to gather a force of millions for an invasion, a galaxy-spanning empire should be able to gather a force of billions, if not trillions, and still have plenty of troops to spare.

**Iracundus**

I agree GW has big issues with scale when it comes to numbers of soldiers involved in their wars.

One possible handwave is that the Imperium does have those billions of troops but the bottleneck is the amount of available shipping for them at any one time. The average transport ship in BFG is depicted as being able to carry about 1/3 to 1/2 a regiment according to Imperial Armour 3. This means that the Imperium may be waging war through attrition over time instead of single sledgehammer "bury them in bodies" type attacks. The Imperium may be ferrying over a few hundred regiments and those fight the local enemy on the planet while the ships go back to pick up the next round of reinforcements. The enemies on the ground might think they are doing well...except the Imperial Guard forces never seem to diminish no matter how badly they get mauled, and if any thing they get larger and larger.

**jhe90**

A huge impirial sledge hammer is about to hit home, assuming of course a black crusade or hive fleet don,t save them.

And if it degrades to attrition, the impirium can keep 10 million men up without a sweat 100 could be achieved with no effert on the grand scheme, more importantly in ship terms they have thousands more dock yards.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.

The Tau Empire is conveniently located in resource rich systems partially cut off from the Imperium. Up to now the Imperium does not appear to have been overly keen on performing Exterminatus on the Tau. That could however change.

Iron_Captain wrote:The numbers already include the local PDF. 120 regiments of Armageddon Hive Militia.

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

**BlaxicanX**

Iron_Captain wrote:
I used your point about the Imperial force on Armageddon to illustrate that any numbers given in 40k fluff should be taken with truckloads of salt as they are often unrealistic or downright impossible because 40k writers (and sci fi writers in general) often have little sense of scale.
Realistically, if a single nation-state on a single planet is already able to gather a force of millions for an invasion, a galaxy-spanning empire should be able to gather a force of billions, if not trillions, and still have plenty of troops to spare.

Ahh. Yes, the majority of the numbers GW throws around to show Imperial zerging are ridiculously low. However as far as in-universe is concerned, Armageddon is one of the most hotly contested zones in the Imperium, simply forcing a stalemate there is the crowning achievement of the Orks thus far (sans the actions of the Beast, which we know nothing about). Thus it's an immense show of Tau strength in relation to the other factions of the Galaxy that the force being sent to cull them is so much more massive then most of the others in Imperial conflict.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Assuming the Tau do number in the trillions on their planets (a little unlikely, considering their life span and relative youth as a race) the imperium doesn't have to conquer their worlds, they just have to get into orbit. That's going to be one of the main differences between pre-heresy era Imperium, and the current era imperium in the fluff. Pre-heresy, they were all about the expansion of the empire. In current 40k, they are all about maintaining/defending the empire, and well, if there has never been a human settlement on the tau planets they are attacking (which will be outside the empire), and they don't deem it to have worthy resources then it's cyclone missile time... Don't have to worry about killing all them tau with only 10 million guardsmen when you can deal with them with the click of a button.

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.

The fact that the Imperium has spent millions of lives trying to fight the Tau on the ground is proof that simply burning the planet to the ground isn't an option to them, for whatever reason. Also, trying to fight them in space is silly because that removes the only advantage the Imperium has over the Tau: numbers. Tau space-tech and space tactics are so advanced that they've wiped their ass with entire Tyranid splinter-fleets without losing a single ship- a feat the Imperium has never come even close to achieving.

RE numbers: ants have a life-span of like a month, yet number in the hundreds of billions (iirc). Short life-spans can be circumvented with aggressive breeding, and considering how Tau caste life is like, it's likely that they have entire corps dedicated simply toward pumping out babies, ala Cadia. With an empire spanning multiple star-systems, it isn't at all unfeasible that they could number in the trillions by now.

**Iracundus**

It is important to bear in mind here that in the 40K paradigm space power is not the be all and end all of warfare.

In particular, with reference to the BFG rulebook, the average planetary defense laser silo packs almost as much firepower as the broadside of a Gothic cruiser, with greater range than the Gothic. Likewise, the average planetary defense missile silo has the launch capacity of a full cruiser, and the average planetary defense air base has enough short range aerospace fighters and bombers to match a Dictator cruiser.

From the old GW Armageddon 3 website archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20010820235454/www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/BFG/BFGmap.html

we can see the defenses of each hive on Armageddon comprised at least 4 air bases, 8 missile silos, and 8 laser silos. That kind of firepower would be enough to shred your average Imperial frigate, and even your average cruiser, if they tried to bombard the hive. Even if one takes Armageddon to be a more heavily defended than usual hive world, it still gives a rough gauge of the defenses a typical hive might have, which still is likely to overpower most spaceships.

So in other words, in 40K, ground based defense installations can pack equal or superior firepower to an orbiting starship, and if point values are any indicator, at a lower cost too.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Las wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Las wrote:
Arcsquad12 wrote:
Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

4000-10000 soldiers is a ridiculously small number to throw at the Tau. Consider that we are talking about warfare on an interplanetary scale and then consider that the combined strength of the German army groups at the outset of Barbarossa was just shy of 4 million.
Right. What he's saying is that the Imperium is throwing 1,000 Regiments at the Tau, each regiment being (theoretically) between 4000 and 10,000 men. Thus 4-10 million men.

It's not always a good idea to use WW2 as an example. It was fought at the dawn of air power. An Imperial Guard regiment shows up with an entire naval fleet much of the time, and vast amounts of air and space assets at their disposal.

I think you're making a few mistakes in your analysis. 1) you're assuming the imperium has air and space supremacy from the get go and the fluff would have us believe that the Tau have access to formidable air and space craft capable of at least standing teo to toe with the IN, making this a variable. 2) you're characterizing the IG as a force capable of rapid redeployment when all their fluff points to them being a slow moving force hampered with logistical difficulties. 3) WW2 and early 20th century warfare is really the only comparison that can be brought in, not least because the world wars are the only conflicts in human history that give examples of comparable scales of operation, not to mention that the guard have clearly been designed to represent themes based on popular mythology of the western front in 1915-17. 4) the entire 40k fluff has made it abundantly clear that because of rule of cool, warfare is won and lost on the ground. Looking at it from a realistic perspective and marveling at how orbital supremacy doesn't win engagements instantly really isn't the way to go.

epronovost wrote:
I would add to Veteran Sergeant on that point. If you consider that the Imperial Guard has the capacity to deploy anywhere on a planet due to it's mastery of space travel, you could say that 4 million men is a massive number you don't need 10% of that number to seize a city let alone a select few building (Palace, Parliement, important millitary bases, etc.). Most of the soldiers send on any grand scale invasion like Hitler's plan for Russia or Napoleon's one required massive numbers of men and most of them were only useful to carry food, ammunition and control terrain taken from the ennemy by foward elements. Using stats from past wars to describe modern ones or even extrapolate on futuristic ones is the definition of anachronical reflexion.

Well, let's be real, 40k is not modern or "future" war. It's fantasy. It is however based on popular ideas of mostly WWI and WWII. The IG fights very much like how our popular culture has depicted combat in those conflicts. They are therefore, I think, comparable as the designers made a conscious choice to draw on those themes. As for your points about the number of actual combatants, true, but why would the same not be true about an IG regiment? To be honest, 10 million men is laughable as a force intended to take an entire planet from a competent defender engaged in symetrical warfare, let alone multiple star systems.

Also, it must be noted that wars are not won by seizing parliaments and military bases but by destroying or overwhelming the enemy's ability to propagate industrial scale war and maintain a wartime economy.

Whether or not the Imperial Guard can establish air/space supremacy early or late isn't really relevant. If they can establish it at any point, they can then wipe out otherwise impregnable ground defenses at a whim. The only time that ground battles in the 40K turn into WW2 style stalemates is when there is a desire to take the objectives intact (recovering AdMech factorums, hive cities, etc). If their only objective is to eradicate xeno presence from a planet, then all they need to do is eliminate the surface to space defenses and blast it from orbit. People get confused by stuff like the Siege of Vraks, Taros, or the war for Armageddon, thinking that must be the only way a war is fought in 40K, when it's probably a fairly inaccurate depiction of a normal campaign.

The IGuard doesn't need to grind Wermacht into oblivion and outlast its ability to make war. If it can make the Tau vulnerable ground targets, it can lance them from orbit, lol. It isn't like there's any consideration to civilian casualties when xenos are involved.

As far as what the "fluff says" about how warfare is won and lost, read some of the Battlefleet Gothic fluff. You'll find the fluff tends to be pretty complimentary of whatever style of combat they're trying to sell you miniature toys for.

**BlaxicanX**

The guy directly above you is using BFG to support the notion that space supremacy tends to mean little in the grand scheme of taking a planet in 40K.

**Veteran Sergeant**

He's using the rules as a theoretical, not the fluff as an absolute. Kinda of a difference, ya know.

When the governor replied: "We
are loyal servants of the Emperor and we will not
accept any rule other then His!", one broadside
salvo from the Blasphemer battleship turned the
governor's palace and a part of the capital city into
radioactive rubble and dust. The governor's
hurriedly elected successor gladly accepted the
proposal of 'cooperation'...

Many fled to the surface of Barbarus III, thinking themselves safe from our guns. How wrong they were. Using plasma torpedoes modified by Magos Urilun of the Adeptus Mechanicus, we set fire to the atmosphere of the near-deserted world, burning them out.

an unknown renegade battleship entered the Ra system, attacking the principal system, immediately landing a contingent of Emperor's Sons Chaos Space Marines and commencing an orbital bombardment against Hives Nestor and Caltex until the planetary givernor capitulated and was overthrown.

Etc.

**BlaxicanX**

And notice how not a single one of those oribital bombardments was commenced in the middle of a planetary-sized battle with enemy fleets and enemy ground-to-air defenses actively fighting back.

None of the situations you've quoted would match what would happen if an Imperial fleet suddenly appeared above a Xenos planet.

**Veteran Sergeant**

It's okay to admit when you're wrong.

Continuing to argue a lost cause is just silly.

**BlaxicanX**

Excellent counter-argument.

I'm being sarcastic, that's a terrible counter-argument. Get out of my thread.

**Co'tor Shas**

I wouldn't say that has failed, but there is a possibility that it has ended. Each sphere continues until they cannot continue without undue risk, and then there is a period in which they spread, repopulate, and fully take over the worlds they have claimed. For the sphere to fail would have the empire not claiming any worlds or losing them.

**BrianDavion**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
I used your point about the Imperial force on Armageddon to illustrate that any numbers given in 40k fluff should be taken with truckloads of salt as they are often unrealistic or downright impossible because 40k writers (and sci fi writers in general) often have little sense of scale.
Realistically, if a single nation-state on a single planet is already able to gather a force of millions for an invasion, a galaxy-spanning empire should be able to gather a force of billions, if not trillions, and still have plenty of troops to spare.
Ahh. Yes, the majority of the numbers GW throws around to show Imperial zerging are ridiculously low. However as far as in-universe is concerned, Armageddon is one of the most hotly contested zones in the Imperium, simply forcing a stalemate there is the crowning achievement of the Orks thus far (sans the actions of the Beast, which we know nothing about). Thus it's an immense show of Tau strength in relation to the other factions of the Galaxy that the force being sent to cull them is so much more massive then most of the others in Imperial conflict.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Assuming the Tau do number in the trillions on their planets (a little unlikely, considering their life span and relative youth as a race) the imperium doesn't have to conquer their worlds, they just have to get into orbit. That's going to be one of the main differences between pre-heresy era Imperium, and the current era imperium in the fluff. Pre-heresy, they were all about the expansion of the empire. In current 40k, they are all about maintaining/defending the empire, and well, if there has never been a human settlement on the tau planets they are attacking (which will be outside the empire), and they don't deem it to have worthy resources then it's cyclone missile time... Don't have to worry about killing all them tau with only 10 million guardsmen when you can deal with them with the click of a button.

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.
The fact that the Imperium has spent millions of lives trying to fight the Tau on the ground is proof that simply burning the planet to the ground isn't an option to them, for whatever reason. Also, trying to fight them in space is silly because that removes the only advantage the Imperium has over the Tau: numbers. Tau space-tech and space tactics are so advanced that they've wiped their ass with entire Tyranid splinter-fleets without losing a single ship- a feat the Imperium has never come even close to achieving.

RE numbers: ants have a life-span of like a month, yet number in the hundreds of billions (iirc). Short life-spans can be circumvented with aggressive breeding, and considering how Tau caste life is like, it's likely that they have entire corps dedicated simply toward pumping out babies, ala Cadia. With an empire spanning multiple star-systems, it isn't at all unfeasible that they could number in the trillions by now.

one thing to consider is all the conficts with the Tau have been defensive, or attempting to recapture more recently lost worlds. I would imagine the nature of the war would change if and when the IoM ever started pushing into the Tau Empire's core. the war would be a blood ground battle only when the IoM is chewing through the Tau's human colonies. once that's over with (assuming for a moment the IoM can keep advancing) and the IoM is hitting worlds whose populations are Tau or other Xenos races? I imagine the campaign would take a new, and more brutal turn.

**endlesswaltz123**

Exactly.

Also to note, if the greater of the tau's resources are non organic, then the trusty virus bomb can be utilised and the planets can be re-terrarformed after for mining.

Considering all the factors with tau, exterminatus of their worlds at the first opportunity is the only real tactic the imperium have unless they are willing to throw away numerous fleets, regiments and chapters plus all other supporting factions just to battle it out on the ground, where orbital superiority is not guaranteed, far from it and could leave forces stranded on the ground if fleets are forced to withdraw or destroyed.

**Furyou Miko**

That's an interesting campaign idea. All the Tau have been wiped out by virus bombs, and the Imperials have to come in and clean up the remaining drones and AI units that might still be active.

**Co'tor Shas**

The question is, how effective will it be. Their vehicles are environmentally sealed, and there suits have complete life-support systems, to the point where they can survive "several cycles" underwater. Underground bases that are sealed off may remain unaffected, and the tau might have counter measures, either making a cure, or physically destroying the virus via nanobots withing the body. All in all, virus bombing would be the method of exterminatus least likely to work. Especially as you need to control the space above a planet to do so effectively.

**Furyou Miko**

It could be done via insertion teams against an unsuspecting world though, or on a fringe colony.

**MajorStoffer**

What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

**Co'tor Shas**

The real question is, will the imperium take advantage of this fact, and if so, to attack them, or to ignore them. The tau can't really continue, and this would allow the imperium to pull back forces responding to the tau threat and use them elsewhere.

**nomotog**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Exactly.

Also to note, if the greater of the tau's resources are non organic, then the trusty virus bomb can be utilised and the planets can be re-terrarformed after for mining.

Considering all the factors with tau, exterminatus of their worlds at the first opportunity is the only real tactic the imperium have unless they are willing to throw away numerous fleets, regiments and chapters plus all other supporting factions just to battle it out on the ground, where orbital superiority is not guaranteed, far from it and could leave forces stranded on the ground if fleets are forced to withdraw or destroyed.

Last I checked, the IoM can't terraform a planet. If they drop a virus bomb, then they can't use that planet anymore. Not even for mining because the air would be toxic and flammable.

**Furyou Miko**

Actually, according to the x of Mars series, the Imperium can terraform planets.

**Psienesis**

The Imperium maintains terraforming capabilities, they just don't use it frequently (since viruses do, eventually, die). The Life-Eater Virus, specifically, leaves a planet uninhabitable (since it burns the atmosphere off), but there are plenty of other viruses that humanity can deploy (and, given the amount of contact they've had with the Tau, they might even engineer a virus lethal to the Tau but harmless to humans).

Short life-spans can be circumvented with aggressive breeding, and considering how Tau caste life is like, it's likely that they have entire corps dedicated simply toward pumping out babies, ala Cadia

We know this to be untrue, since each Caste is a separate sub-species of the Tau, and do not seem capable of inter-breeding. Thus, to make more Earth Caste workers, you need to have Earth Caste members breeding. Same with the Fire Caste, Air Caste and Water Caste. It seems that breeding rights and the like are carefully controlled and maintained, as otherwise overpopulation becomes a very real concern.

Tau are not raised by nuclear families, instead being raised in communal creches, which instills the ideas of the community over the individual from an early age. This, again, will limit the growth of the population, as a creche can be only so big before more people are required to perform the tasks of child-raising, which means less people doing the work of the Caste. More people, of course, requires more resources, which requires more workers, and so forth and so on.

Rabbit-like population expansion is not really keeping with the structured society of the Tau.

**Co'tor Shas**

Come on, this is the imperium were talking about. They don't do any R&D, and they would probably end up creating a chaos virus anyway.

**Grey Templar**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Come on, this is the imperium were talking about. They don't do any R&D, and they would probably end up creating a chaos virus anyway.

This is actually wrong. The Imperium does do research. The Ad Much are constantly inventing new stuff. It just proceeded at a snails pace through bureaucratic red tape that can last centuries.

Power armor, ship designs, and plasma and melta weaponry are examples of advancement. But they've fallen in other areas too so it evens out.

But its completely false to say the imperium isn't advancing.

**Co'tor Shas**

It depends on who you read. Some authors have them advancing, others have them only "advancing" via STC templates. Whatever the case, unless the find the STC template for the Virusomatic 9000, I doubt they would be able to make the virus. Or by the time they do, the tau are probably going to be big enough to not be massive damaged over a world or two (or be dead).

**Grey Templar**

They're definitely not making a computer virus any time soon, but they are advancing in other areas.

**Las**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Las wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Las wrote:
Arcsquad12 wrote:
Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

4000-10000 soldiers is a ridiculously small number to throw at the Tau. Consider that we are talking about warfare on an interplanetary scale and then consider that the combined strength of the German army groups at the outset of Barbarossa was just shy of 4 million.
Right. What he's saying is that the Imperium is throwing 1,000 Regiments at the Tau, each regiment being (theoretically) between 4000 and 10,000 men. Thus 4-10 million men.

It's not always a good idea to use WW2 as an example. It was fought at the dawn of air power. An Imperial Guard regiment shows up with an entire naval fleet much of the time, and vast amounts of air and space assets at their disposal.

I think you're making a few mistakes in your analysis. 1) you're assuming the imperium has air and space supremacy from the get go and the fluff would have us believe that the Tau have access to formidable air and space craft capable of at least standing teo to toe with the IN, making this a variable. 2) you're characterizing the IG as a force capable of rapid redeployment when all their fluff points to them being a slow moving force hampered with logistical difficulties. 3) WW2 and early 20th century warfare is really the only comparison that can be brought in, not least because the world wars are the only conflicts in human history that give examples of comparable scales of operation, not to mention that the guard have clearly been designed to represent themes based on popular mythology of the western front in 1915-17. 4) the entire 40k fluff has made it abundantly clear that because of rule of cool, warfare is won and lost on the ground. Looking at it from a realistic perspective and marveling at how orbital supremacy doesn't win engagements instantly really isn't the way to go.

epronovost wrote:
I would add to Veteran Sergeant on that point. If you consider that the Imperial Guard has the capacity to deploy anywhere on a planet due to it's mastery of space travel, you could say that 4 million men is a massive number you don't need 10% of that number to seize a city let alone a select few building (Palace, Parliement, important millitary bases, etc.). Most of the soldiers send on any grand scale invasion like Hitler's plan for Russia or Napoleon's one required massive numbers of men and most of them were only useful to carry food, ammunition and control terrain taken from the ennemy by foward elements. Using stats from past wars to describe modern ones or even extrapolate on futuristic ones is the definition of anachronical reflexion.

Well, let's be real, 40k is not modern or "future" war. It's fantasy. It is however based on popular ideas of mostly WWI and WWII. The IG fights very much like how our popular culture has depicted combat in those conflicts. They are therefore, I think, comparable as the designers made a conscious choice to draw on those themes. As for your points about the number of actual combatants, true, but why would the same not be true about an IG regiment? To be honest, 10 million men is laughable as a force intended to take an entire planet from a competent defender engaged in symetrical warfare, let alone multiple star systems.

Also, it must be noted that wars are not won by seizing parliaments and military bases but by destroying or overwhelming the enemy's ability to propagate industrial scale war and maintain a wartime economy.

Whether or not the Imperial Guard can establish air/space supremacy early or late isn't really relevant. If they can establish it at any point, they can then wipe out otherwise impregnable ground defenses at a whim. The only time that ground battles in the 40K turn into WW2 style stalemates is when there is a desire to take the objectives intact (recovering AdMech factorums, hive cities, etc). If their only objective is to eradicate xeno presence from a planet, then all they need to do is eliminate the surface to space defenses and blast it from orbit. People get confused by stuff like the Siege of Vraks, Taros, or the war for Armageddon, thinking that must be the only way a war is fought in 40K, when it's probably a fairly inaccurate depiction of a normal campaign.

The IGuard doesn't need to grind Wermacht into oblivion and outlast its ability to make war. If it can make the Tau vulnerable ground targets, it can lance them from orbit, lol. It isn't like there's any consideration to civilian casualties when xenos are involved.

As far as what the "fluff says" about how warfare is won and lost, read some of the Battlefleet Gothic fluff. You'll find the fluff tends to be pretty complimentary of whatever style of combat they're trying to sell you miniature toys for.

That's my point though, they've been selling the Damocles Gulf campaign as your run of the mill 40k beat down, and for that they would need more than 10 million guardsmen. If extermination was their only goal then why wasn't orbital bombardment the deciding factor in the previous engagement? The answer is that 40k is is a soldiers game and orbital supremacy being the game changer is the exception rather than the rule. Hell, the imperium's modus operandi at Taros was to go all Montgomery on the Tau. That's just the way she goes.

**Wyzilla**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
The question is, how effective will it be. Their vehicles are environmentally sealed, and there suits have complete life-support systems, to the point where they can survive "several cycles" underwater. Underground bases that are sealed off may remain unaffected, and the tau might have counter measures, either making a cure, or physically destroying the virus via nanobots withing the body. All in all, virus bombing would be the method of exterminatus least likely to work. Especially as you need to control the space above a planet to do so effectively.

IIRC, the life eater virus can eat through armor as well, the only thing that would survive is stuff in bunkers.

Plus the virus isn't supposed to be the final measure. After the virus eats all organic life its exposed to, a cruiser then fires a single lance batter and ignites the entire planet and burns everything. Realistically, nothing should survive this as it would destroy the atmosphere and wreak havoc on the ability for life to even exist that requires oxygen.