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Sounds more like sentient acid then a virus.

Nah, the Life Eater Virus works by infiltrating the cellular structure of living things and then forcibly converting each cell to a Life-eater Virus near-instantaneously. Thing is, the Life-eater Virus turns everything that doesn't get converted into a new virus into its base elemental components - which means lots of carbon and twice as much hydrogen, hence the firestorm.

 jhe90 wrote:
A huge impirial sledge hammer is about to hit home, assuming of course a black crusade or hive fleet don,t save them.

And if it degrades to attrition, the impirium can keep 10 million men up without a sweat 100 could be achieved with no effert on the grand scheme, more importantly in ship terms they have thousands more dock yards.

... you mean something like the 13th Black Crusade?

We're not worried- Abaddon is about to bend the Imperium over Cadia and run a train on it.

Remember- in timeline, Abaddon taking it hasn't happened yet. The Imperium will keep forces facing the Tau until they realize that Abaddon is winning, and then that sledgehammer gets redirected... I'm pretty sure that the High Lords realize that if Abaddon takes and holds Cadia, it's game over. Abaddon will eventually win. The Imperium will literally drop everything else they're doing to stop him. Tyranids, Orks, and Tau are just xenos... Abaddon the Despoiler is a traitor. It's personal.

*yawn* Next topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Come on, this is the imperium were talking about. They don't do any R&D, and they would probably end up creating a chaos virus anyway.

This is actually wrong. The Imperium does do research. The Ad Much are constantly inventing new stuff. It just proceeded at a snails pace through bureaucratic red tape that can last centuries.

Power armor, ship designs, and plasma and melta weaponry are examples of advancement. But they've fallen in other areas too so it evens out.

But its completely false to say the imperium isn't advancing.

Wasn't that before the Dark Mechanicum beat their loyalist counterparts in the HH?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Also, one can argue Imperium rear lines are more vulnerable to atrack, as there's likely a handful of Forge Worlds supporting the war effort, whereas Tau industry is more dustributed.

Also, Krrot Warspheres are exceedingly large and powerful, not sure uf up to par with Imperial Battleships though.

In regards to the Life-eater, Istvaan III atrocity has Dreadnoughts survive it. If the battlesuits are similarly sealed (which they seem to be), they would endure it as well.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, according to the x of Mars series, the Imperium can terraform planets.

And that is why I preferenced it. The IoM gets so much fluff and none of it is controlled or organized so they end up basically having anything and everything with the only limit being they likely can't replace it..

LordBlades wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Also, one can argue Imperium rear lines are more vulnerable to atrack, as there's likely a handful of Forge Worlds supporting the war effort, whereas Tau industry is more dustributed.

Also, Krrot Warspheres are exceedingly large and powerful, not sure uf up to par with Imperial Battleships though.

In regards to the Life-eater, Istvaan III atrocity has Dreadnoughts survive it. If the battlesuits are similarly sealed (which they seem to be), they would endure it as well.

Bfg has the manta and thunderhawk as sustainable ordnance, so on a space scale they are comparable.

Kroot spheres are tough old boats , not a lot of dakka sadly

It comes down to space conflict to me, the imperium out classes the tau in terms of top end vessels and numbers, so when you have more powerful foes that also outnumber you, that's a nasty mix.

nomotog wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, according to the x of Mars series, the Imperium can terraform planets.

And that is why I preferenced it. The IoM gets so much fluff and none of it is controlled or organized so they end up basically having anything and everything with the only limit being they likely can't replace it..

that's really the IoM all over. the tech likely exists SOMEWHERE. they just don't have it wide spread and everywhere. the new admech stuff is ample proof of this. some of their toys are pretty awesome. but it's not being widely disseminated

Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

 jhe90 wrote:
Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

Indeed. with the new admech forces we're finally getting a solid idea as to what's guarding a forge world other then "titans" and I think the Tau might have issues if they ran up against the type of stuff we've seen thus far

But the biggest issue the Imperium face is supply issues, as we've learnt, in that they're simply not very good at getting the right forces in the right place when they're needed. Although there's the whole thing about 'they just need to aim the sledgehammer and strike home with it', it's a much more difficult task than has been illustrated in the this thread.

For something like Armageddon, where it's a pretty static objective that's going to be lasting for a while, and Imperial troops can take a while to get there, and be okay (I know it's a bad example, I can't think of a better one atm). But whilst this war is being fought in Tau territory, with the more reliable Tau drives (short range yeah, but they don't need to be long range) they're going to have a distinct advantage.

I know Tau are obviously going to have manpower issues in that they can't really match the attition rate of the Imperium, but the Imperium have inherent logistical problems (plus that whole thing about them finding it hard to travel to that particular area, even further limiting their logistial abilities), and although once that sledgehammer is in place, the Tau are going to find it difficult to stall it, it's going to take a very long time to draw it back for a proper offensive.

Every minute that the Imperium are getting ready, is a bonus to the Tau, as we've seen they're willing to actually change their tactics, evolve their technology, and adapt to the situation. Hey, the Tau aren't in such a bad position afterall.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

Indeed. with the new admech forces we're finally getting a solid idea as to what's guarding a forge world other then "titans" and I think the Tau might have issues if they ran up against the type of stuff we've seen thus far

Also surprise, the admech has access to a lot better tech than most, I'm sure that includes advanced scanners watching the warp points etc. To lose a forgeworld is a disastor.

There might find the entire worlds defences ready and waiting on high alert and all militias and such called out and equipped.

 Formosa wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Also, one can argue Imperium rear lines are more vulnerable to atrack, as there's likely a handful of Forge Worlds supporting the war effort, whereas Tau industry is more dustributed.

Also, Krrot Warspheres are exceedingly large and powerful, not sure uf up to par with Imperial Battleships though.

In regards to the Life-eater, Istvaan III atrocity has Dreadnoughts survive it. If the battlesuits are similarly sealed (which they seem to be), they would endure it as well.

Bfg has the manta and thunderhawk as sustainable ordnance, so on a space scale they are comparable.

Kroot spheres are tough old boats , not a lot of dakka sadly

It comes down to space conflict to me, the imperium out classes the tau in terms of top end vessels and numbers, so when you have more powerful foes that also outnumber you, that's a nasty mix.

Kroot warspheres are essentially giant hamsterballs.

 jhe90 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

Indeed. with the new admech forces we're finally getting a solid idea as to what's guarding a forge world other then "titans" and I think the Tau might have issues if they ran up against the type of stuff we've seen thus far

Also surprise, the admech has access to a lot better tech than most, I'm sure that includes advanced scanners watching the warp points etc. To lose a forgeworld is a disastor.

There might find the entire worlds defences ready and waiting on high alert and all militias and such called out and equipped.

With Tau not being constrained by Warp routes, I feel there's a decent chance they won't be detected before they enter system.

The defense capabilities of a Forge World also seem to vary greatly. At the lower end of the scale for example, in 'The Greater Good' novel of the Ciaphas Cain series, the Imperium is defending a Forge World in the region we're discussing and all the Mechanicum itself can muster are some Skitarii (a regiment IIRC). Definitely no fleet and no Titans.

Also, on the matter of GW/BL being clueless about scale: Acvording to IA3- The Taros Campaign, the Tau took Taros with 8-9000 Tau, 5000 Kroot, 9000 PDF and 200 aircraft...

That is hilarious.

Considering there are probably billions of fire caste, it does not sound good for the imperium!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That is hilarious.

Considering there are probably billions of fire caste, it does not sound good for the imperium!

we dunno how large the fire caste is. also remember in a defensive war a degree of your man power is always being "Wasted" garrisoning places the enemy MIGHT attack

The fire caste is the second biggest caste, behind earth. Considering the tau control multiple systems, and multiple worlds per system, It would not be a stretch to say that there are billions of fire caste.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The fire caste is the second biggest caste, behind earth. Considering the tau control multiple systems, and multiple worlds per system, It would not be a stretch to say that there are billions of fire caste.

Billions doesn't mean much when the Imperium could lose several trillion people without even noticing the loss in population. It's billions of Tau to Quadrillions of Imperials. Even a tiny fraction of the Imperium's might rallied would crush the Tau through shear mass alone, much like a gigantic Ork assault, only shades of pink and brown instead of green.

That's sort of the point. I'm making fun of the GW writers bad sense of scale.

The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

LordBlades wrote:
The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

eh don't be too sure, water caste are pilots yes, but they're also ship crew etc. I bet a LOT of them are in civilian occupations. merchant marines, bus drivers, that sort of thing. The Fire caste are soldiers sure, but I'm guessing they also fill emergancy services roles, such as policing and fire fighting.

Actually, tau have no police, because they have (at least within the tau) no crime. And fire-fighting is probably done with a combination of drone and earth caste. The fire caste is just for war, nothing else.

Air caste yes, the pilots start from Kor'vre rank. I assume lower ranks serve as starbase crew, ship crew, airfield ground personnel etc. I'm also sure they have at least a part in civilian duty (commerce and passengers transport). Fire Caste are all soldiers as far as I can tell though.

Air caste are interesting as they spend most of their lives on giant orbital cities and battle-stations.

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

This is not borne out by their performance comparisons in BFG. Mantas are treated as bombers with a 4+ save against interception. What does that mean? It means Mantas can carry anti-starship grade weaponry, while BFG fighter craft (like the Fury) are incapable of damaging a starship to any significant degree (i.e. they cannot inflict any damage in BFG terms to a starship). The fact a Manta also has a good chance of still being mission capable after interception also points to its durability from a combination of size and shielding. In contrast, a squadron of Furies after intercepting is out of action (at best it is returning to its carrier for re-arming). Again this means a squadron of Furies has a reasonable chance of not being able to incapacitate a Manta. In other words, the Manta outguns the Fury either way you look at it. The proper comparison for the Fury is against the Barracuda which is what is given as the BFG Tau fighter equivalent.

It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

Acvording to the only assesment of Manta performance in space combat I know of (3rd edition Tau codex via Lexicanum):

In space they are used to attack enemy starships and are a match for entire squadrons of Imperial starfighters.

If anyting, Fury is surprisingly lightly armed for its size, with only a pair of lascannons and 4(?) missiles

Iracundus wrote:


It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

My evidence is in the armament and size statistics provided for fluff purposes, not the BFG performances. I refuse to copy and paste tables to dakka though, so you can look them up yourselves;

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Manta
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor

Scroll down to Techical Specifications.

LordBlades wrote:
The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

Would it matter if Liechtenstein mobilized 150% for War if they choose to fight against Soviet Russia ?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Iracundus wrote:


It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

My evidence is in the armament and size statistics provided for fluff purposes, not the BFG performances. I refuse to copy and paste tables to dakka though, so you can look them up yourselves;

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Manta
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor

Scroll down to Techical Specifications.

3rd party wikis are unreliable especially 40K wikia as they do not directly quote their sources and just dump a list of references (which may or may not actually state what is claimed in the entry). In particular, that Fury Inteceptor technical specification is suspect as I have most of those claimed sources and neither the Imperial Armour, nor any of the BFG sources give technical specs for a Fury. In fact the Imperial Armour 1 source for example that is cited, merely mentions the Fury in a one phrase which basically states the Thunderbolt fighter is not a true star fighter like a Fury. That is all that is said. The Warriors of Ultramar novel does not give the exact specs of a Fury and just reveals they are armed with an unspecific number of lascannons and missiles.

The Battlefleet Koronous source also gives no Fury specs at all!. Those are given in the Into the Storm Rogue Trader supplement (which isn't even cited on the page!). So the 40k wikia does not even cite correctly. There the Fury is given as having a cruising speed of 2,500 kph which is slower than the listed cruising speed for a Manta. The Fury has weapons there listed as 1 twin linked long barrelled lascannon for the forward gunner, and 2 pilot operated lascannon banks (each of 5 cannons each so 10 lascannons total), and 12 missiles of indeterminate type. So we have 12 lascannons and 12 missiles versus the Manta's 2 heavy railguns, 6 ion cannons, 16 burst cannons, and 10 seeker missiles. However this does not take into account anything like durability or the Manta's shields. There is incomplete information given in the RPG sources to conclude anything about size, mass, or maneuverability.

So of all the Fury sources "cited" in that wikia, I have personally checked and ruled out everything except Prince of Crows (as that is the only source I do not have) as they do not give the supposed information that would allow you to draw the conclusions you argue (namely that Furies are larger and outgun and outmaneuver Mantas) I highly doubt a 1 page citation from an anthology is going to provide full technical specs either.

Lesson: 3rd party sites like Lexicanum and 40K Wikia are not valid sources as their articles are often sprinkled with inaccuracies and paraphrased. To quote someone else who was talking about Lexicanum:

Lexicanum generally rewrites or paraphrase what GW has written and also throws in fan speculation as if it has weight to it, making it hard to tell how accurate it is. Generally unless you have the original material open whilst reading it, you can't tell where it is wrong making it a rather insidious source because it can and has perpetuated fan speculations as true when they aren't.

Iracundus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

This is not borne out by their performance comparisons in BFG. Mantas are treated as bombers with a 4+ save against interception. What does that mean? It means Mantas can carry anti-starship grade weaponry, while BFG fighter craft (like the Fury) are incapable of damaging a starship to any significant degree (i.e. they cannot inflict any damage in BFG terms to a starship). The fact a Manta also has a good chance of still being mission capable after interception also points to its durability from a combination of size and shielding. In contrast, a squadron of Furies after intercepting is out of action (at best it is returning to its carrier for re-arming). Again this means a squadron of Furies has a reasonable chance of not being able to incapacitate a Manta. In other words, the Manta outguns the Fury either way you look at it. The proper comparison for the Fury is against the Barracuda which is what is given as the BFG Tau fighter equivalent.

It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

I already pointed this out lol, but thanks for backing me.

Thunderhawk Is the comparison to the manta in bfg, and eldar ord, all have the 4+ save, and yes while the manta can survive, its not that good at moving around and doesn't have the numbers, tau ord was 20cm wasn't it, and imperial was 25/30, cant remember the exact numbers