Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I didn't mean units that could choose both. I meant units that could choose Extra Hands Weapons at all.
Seems like, if you have the choice, you want something else.

Getting flanked and losing all but the last two ranks happen regularly? Perhaps. But at that point, those extra attacks either won't mean much (going from 5 to 10 attacks in a flank) or won't be around for long, anyway (when you're down to 10 models).

The charge issue? And what would that be? +1CR? With Steadfast and kill counts over a dozen, how often does one point of CR matter in 8th?

Saying that there's an emphasis on Strength, and therefore armour is not relevant, is just wrong. A point of armour is a point of armor. My Clanrats like their 5+, thank you very much.
When a model didn't have any armour to start with, then that extra point is less valuable. Because the average Strength in Warhammer is 4. But that's about it.

Extra Hand Weapons are indeed better than Spears. But if you let Spears charge and retain their bonus, suddenly it flips.

Not sure what you mean about Choppas.

Spears were the most common weapon forever and ever, but that's not just because they're effective. They're also cheap and quick to make, and fairly easy to use.

If they were a free upgrade for my Clanrats, it'd be a toss-up between that and just shields.

The only place where there's a serious issue is in the Empire book. Halberdiers perform better, point for point. A bonus to wound and -1 to armour for 30 attacks is just substantially better than 10 extra attacks and a 5+ save.

Warpsolution wrote:
I didn't mean units that could choose both. I meant units that could choose Extra Hands Weapons at all.
Seems like, if you have the choice, you want something else.

I agree. I think I said something similar.

Warpsolution wrote:
Extra Hand Weapons are indeed better than Spears. But if you let Spears charge and retain their bonus, suddenly it flips.

And it should, except for small units

Warpsolution wrote:
Spears were the most common weapon forever and ever, but that's not just because they're effective. They're also cheap and quick to make, and fairly easy to use.

So you are agreeing with me? They are more effective? So they should be the most used weapon choice? Due to their cheapness this should be especially true for core?

Warpsolution wrote:
Getting flanked and losing all but the last two ranks happen regularly? Perhaps. But at that point, those extra attacks either won't mean much (going from 5 to 10 attacks in a flank) or won't be around for long, anyway (when you're down to 10 models).

Last time you said you were happy to trade 6 NGs for 1 ChaosWarrior. Surely if the unit is going to die anyway you would prefer it takes as many of the enemy with it as it can?
If you have two big blocks there is a good chance that there will be a war of attrition where both are reduced to ~25% of starting strength. They may have also been hit by artillery or fought previous combats. If one unit has 50% extra attacks at the end of the game because they took XHW instead of spears you are looking at a ~400VP swing for a cost of ~40points.

Warpsolution wrote:
The charge issue? And what would that be? +1CR? With Steadfast and kill counts over a dozen, how often does one point of CR matter in 8th?.

1CR is regularly relevant, I do concede though it is not usually relevant when large units clash. My point was in every situation (looking at dice averages) a HWS unit has the advantage over a spear unit. There is no reason to take spears even if they are equal price. The difference is small but clear. The exception is when you can expect to have superior troops (eg elves who will hit ~90% rather than 50% of attacks)

Warpsolution wrote:
Saying that there's an emphasis on Strength, and therefore armour is not relevant, is just wrong. A point of armour is a point of armor. My Clanrats like their 5+, thank you very much. When a model didn't have any armour to start with, then that extra point is less valuable. Because the average Strength in Warhammer is 4. But that's about it.

We obviously play in different circles. The average model in WHFB might have S4 but the average unit that is taken, especially for an offensive role has a higher strength. Most shooting is artillery and artillery ignores armour. Most offensive magic ignores armour. Most offensive units are monsters or wielding Greatweapons or lances etc so are hitting at minimum S5. 5+ armour is better than nothing but it is usually ignored.

You said "not many units have a choice between Spears and Extra Hand Weapons". I was clarifying that I wasn't talking about units with both options, as your statement would imply. Just units that can take Extra Hand Weapons.

If Spears become better than other weapon choices, the cost better reflect that.

And no. I am stating the Spears were not the most common weapon because they were the best weapons in combat. They were the best because they were decent, cheap, and easy to use.

If two big blocks--one with Extra Hand Weapons and one with Spears, faced off, the first block would retain more of its attacks in more situations...but the second would usually be taking less casualties, thanks to that shield.
Assuming that both blocks are made up of mediocre troops. Which is exactly the sort of unit that uses Spears.

In every situation, Hand Weapon and Shield units have the advantage over ones using Spears? That...seems like a bold statement.
I'd look at Augments and the like, especially. The more attacks, the more you benefit from the spell.
And not dying is important. But...a 6+ save only saves, well, one in six models.

Even 5-wide, my Clanrats inflict an extra .4 wounds on some Chaos Warriors. Not having that Parry save means they take 1.7 extra wounds a turn.
The bottom line is, none of it matters much at all. But both choices clearly have their merits.

And who's talking about offensive units? I'm talking about the game, as a whole.
Sure, that Vampire Lord is S7, and the Vargheists ate S5, and the Banshees ignore armour. But what about them Skeletons and Zombies and Dire Wolves and Fell Bats and Spirit Hosts and Crypt Horrors, which are all a common sight in such armies?
A 5+ save has it's place. Is it always useful? No. But S7 is often overkill. Checks and balances.

Honestly, I'd need to see some serious Mathhammer to be moved from my original thought: make spears free, the end.

I take AHW on my small units of 10-12 Slaanesh
Chaos Warriors. Then smacking them with Hysterical Frenzy. Gives nice little fortitude (big deal in some games where I play) units that can dish out a lot of attacks, and not hamper my list too much.

Sorry, it's been a while since I've seen Hysterical Frenzy in action.

What makes Extra Hand Weapons better than Halberds, in this case?

An alternative to adding strength against cavalry would be giving spear units impact hits when charged by cav/monstrous cav. So for example if a cav unit charged a unit of empire spearmen 5 wide they would take 5 s3 hits.

Warpsolution wrote:
Sorry, it's been a while since I've seen Hysterical Frenzy in action.

What makes Extra Hand Weapons better than Halberds, in this case?

An extra 6 attacks can kill 6 more models? I realize halberds hit harder, but I like more attacks. it was mostly about aesthetics. Plus, I dunno, really. I just like piles of dice.

Ah. Well, that's hardly the point, then.

Giving existing attacks that boost to wound and additional armour penalty, on average, results in more wounds than those extra 6 attacks.

Extra Hand Weapons are inferior to Halberds. Spears are very similar to Extra Hand Weapons. Etc, etc.

Just a quick bit about 2 handed swords being rare.
The 2 handed Long-sword fighting was prevalent in Europe form the 13th till the 17th century.

I've done some Lichtenauer school of long-sword fencing and I can tell you it is very effective against many different weapons.

But more on topic.
I'm not sure what bump spears need but they do need one badly.

Considering Age of Sigmar is upon us, this thread might not have much use anymore.

That's not true at all. Many of us will keep plying 8th.

My gaming group is actually putting together a fb page where we can discuss and vote on rules changes for the player made 8.5 edition.

ASF when CHARGED to represent setting the spears against the charge.

Also, most two handed swords were used to kill the horses the enemy knights were on, and were mostly one use weapons on the battlefield. Kill horse, knight falls down, use mace/axe on belt against prone knights head.

Heh. You know...there's so much debate on this sort of thing.

Two handed weapons were rarely used. They were often used. They were specialized weapons. They were versatile weapons. They were used against pike walls. For bodyguard duty. To defend ships. Quell city riots. Kill horses.

My guess is that these things are all, to some extent or another, true. History is hardly conclusive on details like this, and the fact probably shifted from one country to the next, from one development to the next, and from one battle to the next. Blacksmiths and instructors tinkered with the design to suit new and varied purposes, and then soldiers did whatever seemed to work best for them.
So...whatever.

ASF when being charged would make sense. But there are two issues with that.
What about other long weapons? Do lances and mounted spears get ASF when they charge? Do halberds get ASF when charged?
And this doesn't actually help spears that much. A huge mob of Goblins is going to do...just as poorly as they did before. A horde of Clanrats (40 attacks) would inflict 2 more wounds against T4 I3 5+ save models.