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But the setting is still explicit about what his motivation was. Just because they tell you instead of show you, doesn't mean it's not there. Stop with the head-canon nonsense. The only person working on head canon is you.
I welcome elaboration then. =)
If you want to throw around accusations and dismissals, you should have no problem backing it with some sort of argument. No?
So you can write the same garbage reply you've given everyone else?
You're wrong. You've been shown how you are wrong and how your argument hinges on the poor characterization by Graham McNeill rather than the fact that Horus's motivation has been explicitly stated in sources both in and outside the novel series, and you continue to argue. Everything past this is a waste of keystrokes.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
But the setting is still explicit about what his motivation was. Just because they tell you instead of show you, doesn't mean it's not there. Stop with the head-canon nonsense. The only person working on head canon is you.
I welcome elaboration then. =)
If you want to throw around accusations and dismissals, you should have no problem backing it with some sort of argument. No?
So you can write the same garbage reply you've given everyone else?
You're wrong. You've been shown how you are wrong and how your argument hinges on the poor characterization by Graham McNeill rather than the fact that Horus's motivation has been explicitly stated in sources both in and outside the novel series, and you continue to argue. Everything past this is a waste of keystrokes.
Horus Heresy Book One: Betrayal pg.24 Important stuff in red
Spoiler:
It seems that the honour of being Warmaster, as great as it was, seemed to him vain consolation for his 'abandonment' by his spiritual father, the Emperor, and as petty and strange a cause as this may seem to a merely 'mortal' observer, the keenness of it seems to have been the shard of malignancy that began the Warmaster's fall from grace.
As time went on Horus' victories seemed hollow ones, the sacrifice of the Space Marines under his command unregarded and increasingly irrelevant to a silent Emperor whose eye no longer turned to regard his once favoured sons. Nor was the Warmaster's authority as unchallenged or respected as the Emperor's had been. It seemed to Horus that several of the other Primarchs begrudged Horus his new rank and frequently questioned his decisions, or contrived to quietly twist his orders more to their own liking. Furthermore resentments and rivalries that had long existed between certain Primarchs broke out into open argument and descent that he could not quell as easily as the Emperor might have, further adding to Horus' ire. Instead of confronting the dissenters head·on, he came to favour only those he felt held him in high regard, or at least would obey without question and blamed the Emperor for his mounting troubles as if it had all been a deliberate scheme (I denigrate him and see him fail That this mounting paranoia and malice went unnoticed is a testament to the Emperor's faith in his Primarchs, a faith that would prove tragically misplaced as the effects of both time and distance as the Warmaster prosecuted his wars and slowly stoked the fires of doubt and malice far away from Terra took effect. As news filtered from Terra of the Emperor's latest pronouncements and the Imperium began to stratify and change at increasing speed without his or the Primarchs' involvement, Horus and his fellows it appears became ever more estranged from the man they thought of as their father. And for the Wannaster increasingly his sole concerns became the completion of the conquest of the galaxy and the cold comfort of bringing ever more glory to his Legions.
It is not for this record to wax long upon the true turning point of Horus the warmaster's course -the moment when he fell from light to eternal darkness and he embraced damnation. These dark words will be laid elsewhere. But it is widely believed that it was upon Davin that the die was cast. He had been wounded by a dire and ruinous weapon, it is said, but whether that merely hastened a poison of vanity and doubting already in the blood, or that it laid him low so that he could be undone, or simply poured fuel upon a black fire that was already burning in his soul, cannot be said. But on Davin, while recovering from his wound deep within the Temple of the Serpent, the Dark Gods of the Warp spoke to the Warmaster and with him forged a pact. They promised him the galaxy for his own, with his father 's blood the price and on those terms he swore fealty. From that moment on Chaos was his master and with hell he was in agreement.
The visions Horus had on Davin showed the emperor worshiped as a god while Horus and several of his fellow primarchs were completely forgotten. After knowing what the Emperor did to the Thunder Warriors and seeing the beginning of the cult of the Emperor appear in his fleet, Horus' rebellion makes a little bit of sense.
The "Emperor's lies" is Horus talking about the Emperor's "Imperial Truth", that the Imperium is founded on atheism and science. Horus feels that the Emperor is planning to use him and his fellow primarchs as tools to conquer the galaxy while wiping away all native religions, so that he can then discard the space marines and have the people declare him to be a god.
Horus rebels because he knows that if he does nothing, he will be just a pawn in the emperor's conquests, soon to be discarded.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 16:23:53
the Signless wrote: Horus Heresy Book One: Betrayal pg.24 Important stuff in red
Spoiler:
It seems that the honour of being Warmaster, as great as it was, seemed to him vain consolation for his 'abandonment' by his spiritual father, the Emperor, and as petty and strange a cause as this may seem to a merely 'mortal' observer, the keenness of it seems to have been the shard of malignancy that began the Warmaster's fall from grace.
As time went on Horus' victories seemed hollow ones, the sacrifice of the Space Marines under his command unregarded and increasingly irrelevant to a silent Emperor whose eye no longer turned to regard his once favoured sons. Nor was the Warmaster's authority as unchallenged or respected as the Emperor's had been. It seemed to Horus that several of the other Primarchs begrudged Horus his new rank and frequently questioned his decisions, or contrived to quietly twist his orders more to their own liking. Furthermore resentments and rivalries that had long existed between certain Primarchs broke out into open argument and descent that he could not quell as easily as the Emperor might have, further adding to Horus' ire. Instead of confronting the dissenters head·on, he came to favour only those he felt held him in high regard, or at least would obey without question and blamed the Emperor for his mounting troubles as if it had all been a deliberate scheme (I denigrate him and see him fail That this mounting paranoia and malice went unnoticed is a testament to the Emperor's faith in his Primarchs, a faith that would prove tragically misplaced as the effects of both time and distance as the Warmaster prosecuted his wars and slowly stoked the fires of doubt and malice far away from Terra took effect. As news filtered from Terra of the Emperor's latest pronouncements and the Imperium began to stratify and change at increasing speed without his or the Primarchs' involvement, Horus and his fellows it appears became ever more estranged from the man they thought of as their father. And for the Wannaster increasingly his sole concerns became the completion of the conquest of the galaxy and the cold comfort of bringing ever more glory to his Legions.
It is not for this record to wax long upon the true turning point of Horus the warmaster's course -the moment when he fell from light to eternal darkness and he embraced damnation. These dark words will be laid elsewhere. But it is widely believed that it was upon Davin that the die was cast. He had been wounded by a dire and ruinous weapon, it is said, but whether that merely hastened a poison of vanity and doubting already in the blood, or that it laid him low so that he could be undone, or simply poured fuel upon a black fire that was already burning in his soul, cannot be said. But on Davin, while recovering from his wound deep within the Temple of the Serpent, the Dark Gods of the Warp spoke to the Warmaster and with him forged a pact. They promised him the galaxy for his own, with his father 's blood the price and on those terms he swore fealty. From that moment on Chaos was his master and with hell he was in agreement.
The visions Horus had on Davin showed the emperor worshiped as a god while Horus and several of his fellow primarchs were completely forgotten. After knowing what the Emperor did to the Thunder Warriors and seeing the beginning of the cult of the Emperor appear in his fleet, Horus' rebellion makes a little bit of sense.
The "Emperor's lies" is Horus talking about the Emperor's "Imperial Truth", that the Imperium is founded on atheism and science. Horus feels that the Emperor is planning to use him and his fellow primarchs as tools to conquer the galaxy while wiping away all native religions, so that he can then discard the space marines and have the people declare him to be a god.
Horus rebels because he knows that if he does nothing, he will be just a pawn in the emperor's conquests, soon to be discarded.
It was coming together well in the earliest books and went to pot soon after. Horus isn't trying to sway his brothers. He allied the worst and most cull-worthy to his side in a way that led the reader to believe this original motive was it, the end all for the heresy.
Thing is, it didn't carry past this moment in the books. We can hang onto it as written, but it isn't reflected in how Horus or the other primarchs act. What would have sold this was a unified expression of this motive across the HH authors and maybe even a idealistic debate between traitors and loyalists. Instead, even the few debates we have are confused, skewed things that have no greater import to the heresy aside from the personal relationships of those debating.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 16:41:35
