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 CrownAxe wrote:
I'm in my living room right now. if I were to enter a room in my house from here does that mean i wasn't in a room previously?

This example sentence doesn't reflect the situation it's trying to draw comparison to; you're replacing "in play" with "in my living room" and "previously in play" with "previously in a room".

Models enter play from not being in play, so if you enter your living room you cannot have been in your living room immediately prior.

I think the consensus is that if your in reserves your special rules are active.
This due to the fact that their are special rules that are obviously active while a unit is in reserve or in pre deployment stage, as no special permission is given to use them
therefore it would follow that permission is not needed.

That said if I was TO I wouldn't allow it a model that can't be killed shouldn't be able to effect the game like that.

Sunhero wrote:
I think the consensus is that if your in reserves your special rules are active.
This due to the fact that their are special rules that are obviously active while a unit is in reserve or in pre deployment stage, as no special permission is given to use them
therefore it would follow that permission is not needed.

That said if I was TO I wouldn't allow it a model that can't be killed shouldn't be able to effect the game like that.

If you have no permission to use them, how are you using them?

Sunhero wrote:
I think the consensus is that if your in reserves your special rules are active.
This due to the fact that their are special rules that are obviously active while a unit is in reserve or in pre deployment stage, as no special permission is given to use them
therefore it would follow that permission is not needed.

That said if I was TO I wouldn't allow it a model that can't be killed shouldn't be able to effect the game like that.

Pre-deployment all models are in play. In Reserves, units are demonstrably not in play.
Allowing things not in play to affect the game is an interesting theory. I'm sure you'll have no problem with my having literally every army-wide buff affecting the game even though I haven't selected those units - after all, things not in play work, right?

Seriously - not in play means you aren't playing with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Reserves are referred to as entering play, or coming into play multiple times. Meaning they were out of play previously.

That's not proof that they weren't in play. They could just be in play in a different way while they were in reserves.

There's multiple types of "out of play"? Please, elaborate on that thought.

Also there still isn't a rule saying that you need to be in play to use special rules and wargear.

That's an amusing assertion. First, however, you've literally said "It doesn't say I can't!" which is a non-starter as far as an argument.
Second, this statement opens up everyone using literally every army wide buff there is for free, regardless of Faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Yes, in fact it does "They enter play" meaning that they weren't previously in play. Had they been in play they would not have said "Enters play" Furthermore, unless the unit is physically present on the board or embarked in a vehicle they are NOT in play.

I'm in my living room right now. if I were to enter a room in my house from here does that mean i wasn't in a room previously?

Wrong analogy.
You're in an unknown state right now. You enter your bedroom. Were you in your bedroom previously?
That's the correct analogy for this situation, and the answer is "No, you weren't."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Do we have somewhere that explicitly defines what "in play" means? It could mean several different gamestates, from being simply "in the army" to "on the board", two most relevant ones brought up in this conversation so far.

Sad but true. Take HQs that modify some unit slot, for example - one would think their ability is in effect from the moment you add them to your army list until the game is over. If not you might have an illegal army list while they're in reserves, or when they get killed by that lucky shot turn one.

Um. Nope? The legality of your list can't change during a game - for example, if you have all your Troops shot off the board is your list suddenly illegal/Unbound?
I kill your Warlord. Is your list illegal now because there's no Warlord?

This thread has given me brain cancer.

The fact that their are special rules that function while in reserve and are not given special permission to do so.
such as "warp strider"( this daemon and his unit add one to their reserve rolls)

This means that you do not need special permission for a special rule to apply while you are in reserve this is undeniable and clear cut.

Thanks I'm satisfied now.

Sunhero wrote:
The fact that their are special rules that function while in reserve and are not given special permission to do so.
such as "warp strider"( this daemon and his unit and one to their reserve rolls)

This means that you do not need special permission for a special rule to apply while you are in reserve this is undeniable and clear cut.

Thanks I'm satisfied now.

Couldn't you say, though, that when models roll for reserves they're entering play? Since they're in the process of coming onto the board their rules count. If they fail their roll, they go back into the abyss of "out of play"

Sunhero wrote:
The fact that their are special rules that function while in reserve and are not given special permission to do so.
such as "warp strider"( this daemon and his unit add one to their reserve rolls)

How is that not special permission? The rule explicitly works on Reserve rolls and can be referenced during Deployment (when you put them in Reserves)...

But that's fine. Prepare for all kinds of shenanigans that are legal, according to you.

So because no one is bothering to look for actual rules in the book regarding what "in play" means, I'm browsing it right now and stumbled across this.

Page 13, "Removed as a casualty and completely destroyed"

"Models that are 'removed from play' by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the game rules are concerned."

Specifically mentions "removed from play" means is a casualty. If we're going to just infer without quoting hard rules then, "in play" means not a casualty, which means reserves are a form of "in play."

 SRSFACE wrote:
So because no one is bothering to look for actual rules in the book regarding what "in play" means, I'm browsing it right now and stumbled across this.

Page 13, "Removed as a casualty and completely destroyed"

"Models that are 'removed from play' by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the game rules are concerned."

Specifically mentions "removed from play" means is a casualty. If we're going to just infer without quoting hard rules then, "in play" means not a casualty, which means reserves are a form of "in play."

Sure, if you only look at part of the book.

If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

So Ongoing Reserves re-enter play.

When this happens, any units that can’t fit into your deployment zone must be held back as Reserves, and will enter play later during the battle, hopefully when there is room for them to fit onto the battlefield.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.

There's more, but those should be enough to prove my point.

So what you're saying is we shouldn't infer anything, because we have contradictory elements of the book if we do so, which puts us back at square 1 and any arguing one way or the other is purely HIWPI.

Which is fine. Just saying you have no sufficiently proven to me what "in play" means. Claiming you have is false. It's your opinion drawn from inferences. (Which, for the record, I respect and understand and in person would be more than happy to accommodate such a ruling decision.)

I'm also comfortable with people looking at rules like Fateweaver's rerolls and claiming they'd be able to do it while the unit is in reserve and not dead.

 SRSFACE wrote:
So what you're saying is we shouldn't infer anything, because we have contradictory elements of the book if we do so, which puts us back at square 1 and any arguing one way or the other is purely HIWPI.

Where did I say that?

Which is fine. Just saying you have no sufficiently proven to me what "in play" means.

I didn't just sufficiently prove that being in Reserves is not being in play?
Did you even read the quotes?

Please, explain where Ongoing Reserves is if it's not in play and it's not out of play.
Please, explain where a FMC is prior to entering Reserves if it's not in play and it's not out of play.

rigeld2 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
So what you're saying is we shouldn't infer anything, because we have contradictory elements of the book if we do so, which puts us back at square 1 and any arguing one way or the other is purely HIWPI.

Where did I say that?

Which is fine. Just saying you have no sufficiently proven to me what "in play" means.

I didn't just sufficiently prove that being in Reserves is not being in play?
Did you even read the quotes?

Please, explain where Ongoing Reserves is if it's not in play and it's not out of play.
Please, explain where a FMC is prior to entering Reserves if it's not in play and it's not out of play.

No, i think what was meant was that you have no definition for the term "in play".

Apart from the English definitions of the words "in" and "play".

 BlackTalos wrote:
No, i think what was meant was that you have no definition for the term "in play".

Apart from the English definitions of the words "in" and "play".

...
Please tell me you forgot the </sarcasm> tag?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
No, i think what was meant was that you have no definition for the term "in play".

Apart from the English definitions of the words "in" and "play".

...
Please tell me you forgot the </sarcasm> tag?

Not really... i've been following the thread and agree that there can be some confusion here. It's one of the "Deep Philosophy Threads" together with the "moving through terrain" thread, so i was reading rather than participating.

But the case still remains: Casualties are not "in play", but reserves are not "in play". Do you have to be "In play" to follow the game's Rules? it's easy to assume "Yes" but the BrB does not clearly define "In play".

I'm thinking: *Only models in play on the board may use Special rules* or *When a model is In Play, it follows the rules found in this book*
But then how would Reserves be defined (as they are not "in play")

rigeld2 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
So what you're saying is we shouldn't infer anything, because we have contradictory elements of the book if we do so, which puts us back at square 1 and any arguing one way or the other is purely HIWPI.

Where did I say that?

Pardon; what's what you SHOULD be saying because I have also "sufficiently" proven "in play" means "not a casualty."

We're inferring rules, on both sides. You might think you're not, but you are. Just because you think you're doing something doesn't mean you're actually succeeding.

Point me to something that succinctly and directly states "in play" means "on the battlefield." Not inferred by other rules using "in play" to mean the act of entering the battlefield. But that "in play" always, unequivocally means "on the battlefield."

@BlackTalos: It's the fact "in play" in basic understanding could also mean something being brought to the table. A sports analogy, basketball bench players are "in play" because they can be thrown onto the court at any time, and can be given technical fouls if they get mouthy or something with a ref. A guy on injured reserves cannot go on the court, and is therefore not in play. It's the ambiguity of the English language at it's best.

 SRSFACE wrote:
So because no one is bothering to look for actual rules in the book regarding what "in play" means, I'm browsing it right now and stumbled across this.

Page 13, "Removed as a casualty and completely destroyed"

"Models that are 'removed from play' by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the game rules are concerned."

Specifically mentions "removed from play" means is a casualty. If we're going to just infer without quoting hard rules then, "in play" means not a casualty, which means reserves are a form of "in play."

What you're not recognizing is that "removed from play" and "not in play yet" are two totally different things. Leaving a room is not the same as not entering the room yet. Otherwise, by what you're saying, I should be able to remove a unit from play while it's still in reserves. I have a hunter killer missile with infinite range, so I can shoot guys in reserves, right?

Also, this section of the rulebook is only talking about rules that say "model is removed from play" instead of dealing wounds to it, I think hellfrost is worded this way.

So no, "in play" would not mean "not a casualty" based on what you quoted.

 SRSFACE wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
So what you're saying is we shouldn't infer anything, because we have contradictory elements of the book if we do so, which puts us back at square 1 and any arguing one way or the other is purely HIWPI.

Where did I say that?

Pardon; what's what you SHOULD be saying because I have also "sufficiently" proven "in play" means "not a casualty."

There's only one way to be out of play?

Point me to something that succinctly and directly states "in play" means "on the battlefield." Not inferred by other rules using "in play" to mean the act of entering the battlefield. But that "in play" always, unequivocally means "on the battlefield."

Since I haven't stated that I refuse to try and prove it.

Also, rigeld did prove that a model not on the table is not in play. If a model is in ongoing reserves, when it comes back on the table this is referred to as "entering play". When models are kept in reserves, it specifically says that they "enter play".

If it says "enter play" when they come on the table, the only logical conclusion is that they weren't in play. You can't enter play from being in play, as has been stated countless times. You can't walk into this room if you're already in this room. You need to be in a different room, which means you can't do anything in this room.

rigeld2 wrote:

Since I haven't stated that I refuse to try and prove it.

So what you're saying is you have no need to prove your central argument, because I am wording it differently than you?

Gotcha.

Bunch of people doing the same old YMDC crap. At least I've got the self introspection to see what I'm doing is inferring rules. I totally get the argument you guys are laying down; what you don't get is that you're inferring a state of play based on other rules. The point isn't that you're not using logic. You are, and it's sound. The point is, your argument is relying on inferring things. You can enter a state of being in play from being in play, in this case being in Reserves (a state of existence to which there are rules that apply) to being on the battlefield (a state of existing in the physical play space).

So, I'm going to go ahead and bow out because there's no point talking to bricks.

 SRSFACE wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Since I haven't stated that I refuse to try and prove it.

So what you're saying is you have no need to prove your central argument, because I am wording it differently than you?

Gotcha.

Well, yes. When you misstate my argument and pretend it's what I've said, I have no need to prove it. I've never said that a unit/model must be on the battlefied to be in play because that's simply incorrect.

Bunch of people doing the same old YMDC crap. At least I've got the self introspection to see what I'm doing is inferring rules. I totally get the argument you guys are laying down; what you don't get is that you're inferring a state of play based on other rules. The point isn't that you're not using logic. You are, and it's sound. The point is, your argument is relying on inferring things. You can enter a state of being in play from being in play, in this case being in Reserves (a state of existence to which there are rules that apply) to being on the battlefield (a state of existing in the physical play space).

How can you possibly enter a state of play from being in play? How can you "re-enter" play from Ongoing Reserves if OR is already in play? You're making assertions that not only don't have rules support, they don't have logical support either.
And when I point that out you make up something you think I've said and require me to prove it! And somehow, I'm the bad guy here!

So, I'm going to go ahead and bow out because there's no point talking to bricks.

You'll be missed I'm sure.

I don't see how being in play could be anything more then a binary state. You either are in play or you are not. Some one earlier used his living room as an example; claiming moving from one room to another would be like moving from one 'in play' state to another. The trouble with that analogy is that it presumes that more then one room is 'in play'. In this paradigm moving into a room that constitutes one state of play from another is not entering play, but rather entering a different state and this is because 'in play' is no longer unique to the living room but extends into other rooms as well. This can be explained a little better if we shift our analogy a little bit. instead og specific rooms in a house, lets use the entierty of the USA. Anything within the borders of the USA is considered 'in play' or 'in the country'. The different states of the united states can all represent different states of 'in play'. Moving from say Ohio to Michigan would be a change of state, but when you cross that border you have neither left the country (left play) or entered the country. However moving from Michigan into Ontario you have defiantly left the country/play.

Given that instructions concerning 'moving into play' involve the Model being deployed/moved onto the battlefield... how can any Model be 'in play' prior to the very first 'deploy/move onto the field' Rule itself?

Personally:
I have come to the conclusion that Game Workshop uses the word 'play' in the same way that sport events like Grid-iron use the word. It doesn't mean that 'out of play' periods can not influence the game, a lot happens during sport events even when 'play has been suspended' for whatever reason. What it does mean, from a Rule as Written point of view, is that the damn Rules better be written well enough to account for things occurring 'in play' and things occurring 'out of play!'

Situation Broken, so if you have a Special Rule which must be used from Reserves... simply ask 'no problem me using this Rule, right?'
Cause it is also going to come to heads with the 'can not use Special Rules at the start of the turn in which it has arrived from reserves' Rule as well....

Always had a nice headache with that one:
- Modify a Reserve Roll thanks to a Special Rule or ability
- Unit is now coming in from reserves
- Is that legal... it was when the Roll was modified, but no longer is now they are arriving!

This is not hard but every ones hung up on this "in play" thing.

If a models special rules are considered in effect while it's in reserve e.g "warp strider" where they clearly are. then special rules are in effect while a unit is in reserve.

Then the fact of it being "in play" or not is irrelevant to the question.

People are using it as a Restriction to prevent Special Rules from influencing the game, unless the attached Model is 'in play.'

Therefore the obvious question has to be asked:
How do Rules which modify an 'out of play' event (such as rolling Warlord Traits) function if they can only become 'active' after the Model has been deployed?
Seeing deployment occurs long after the Warlord trait period... making a timing nightmare.

It's an unnecessary assumption that seeks to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Oh I agree,
But then I believe the Authors have never been at all clear with this concept, at best. At worse, they have butchered all related terms to the extent the Written Rules are... can't even say unplayable at this point, it is past that. That the only sensible answer is to ignore the entire 'out of play' / 'in play' question entirely, and simply focus on the each situation by a case-by-case basis as they come. Any resulting dispute over which Rules should and should not be allowed to function simply can not be resolved here. They will have to be resolved by the two players using The Most Important Rule....

The Rules are 'murky at best, use common sense in these waters here boyz' because the authors are never going to.

JinxDragon wrote:
Given that instructions concerning 'moving into play' involve the Model being deployed/moved onto the battlefield... how can any Model be 'in play' prior to the very first 'deploy/move onto the field' Rule itself?

Personally:
I have come to the conclusion that Game Workshop uses the word 'play' in the same way that sport events like Grid-iron use the word. It doesn't mean that 'out of play' periods can not influence the game, a lot happens during sport events even when 'play has been suspended' for whatever reason. What it does mean, from a Rule as Written point of view, is that the damn Rules better be written well enough to account for things occurring 'in play' and things occurring 'out of play!'

Situation Broken, so if you have a Special Rule which must be used from Reserves... simply ask 'no problem me using this Rule, right?'
Cause it is also going to come to heads with the 'can not use Special Rules at the start of the turn in which it has arrived from reserves' Rule as well....

Always had a nice headache with that one:
- Modify a Reserve Roll thanks to a Special Rule or ability
- Unit is now coming in from reserves
- Is that legal... it was when the Roll was modified, but no longer is now they are arriving!

And that is the issue i was also referring to. Special Rules that mention "apply on Reserves" are therefore "Special Rules that apply *out of Play*". They may be specific to the models in reserves (by specifically stating so), but if any of those got a little too vague (*Apply to all models, in play + reserves*) then why would they not apply to casualties who are also "out of play". I do think it is a nice angle of thought, but creates a massive confusion point in a Game that really does not need it

As such, i'm out. (still be glancing through though...) I think "in play" and rules applying to dead models is clear enough RaI.