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Whiskey144 wrote:
The main flaw of Salvo weapons is twofold:

1) Mechanically, Salvo status is irrelevant to Terminators; they're Relentless, so they're always considered to be stationary when determining what weapons may be fired at full-BS/RoF/range.
2) Salvo is an awesome "feth you" to any and all non-Relentless models that can take Stormbolters, which is more than you'd think in fact.

It's also why Assault 3 is a simpler solution- sure, it may not look as fancy as "Salvo 2/4", and it may not get quite as many shots as Salvo 2/4 would on a Relentless model. But it sure doesn't make Stormbolters completely worthless as a character upgrade in all the various Loyalist flavors of SM as well as Sisters forces. Oh, and it doesn't make it worthless as a special weapon for Sisters.

But other than that, I would say that Terminators should be a bit cheaper, and both Loyalist and Traitor need some help.

I've said it before, and the only protest seems to be fluff. But terminators should just get heavy stubbers. That gives them 36" range and 3 shots. Giving them 50% more shooting and giving them 12" more range. Fifteen S4 shots isn't spectacular, but it's not something you can just ignore.

I think the original poster's ideas are worth more credit than they have been given due. It's very intelligent to improve the appeal of units in need of reform by improving their utility- all the suggestions for merely improving their statline, or dropping their points (basically to give a simple improvement to killing/defensive power per point) is precisely the sort of thing which leads to power creep.

Make X more powerful, and Y seems weaker so you make Y more powerful, then Z seems weak... And so on and so on in a way which doesn't improve the situation.

The original poster suggests a way which would make Terminators an appealing choice, without just postponing the problem of powercreep. Instead, improve the options of existing wargear to them that would give Terminators a role to play that fits their current statline and points costing.

 TheSilo wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
The main flaw of Salvo weapons is twofold:

1) Mechanically, Salvo status is irrelevant to Terminators; they're Relentless, so they're always considered to be stationary when determining what weapons may be fired at full-BS/RoF/range.
2) Salvo is an awesome "feth you" to any and all non-Relentless models that can take Stormbolters, which is more than you'd think in fact.

It's also why Assault 3 is a simpler solution- sure, it may not look as fancy as "Salvo 2/4", and it may not get quite as many shots as Salvo 2/4 would on a Relentless model. But it sure doesn't make Stormbolters completely worthless as a character upgrade in all the various Loyalist flavors of SM as well as Sisters forces. Oh, and it doesn't make it worthless as a special weapon for Sisters.

But other than that, I would say that Terminators should be a bit cheaper, and both Loyalist and Traitor need some help.

I've said it before, and the only protest seems to be fluff. But terminators should just get heavy stubbers. That gives them 36" range and 3 shots. Giving them 50% more shooting and giving them 12" more range. Fifteen S4 shots isn't spectacular, but it's not something you can just ignore.

Watch me.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
The main flaw of Salvo weapons is twofold:

1) Mechanically, Salvo status is irrelevant to Terminators; they're Relentless, so they're always considered to be stationary when determining what weapons may be fired at full-BS/RoF/range.
2) Salvo is an awesome "feth you" to any and all non-Relentless models that can take Stormbolters, which is more than you'd think in fact.

It's also why Assault 3 is a simpler solution- sure, it may not look as fancy as "Salvo 2/4", and it may not get quite as many shots as Salvo 2/4 would on a Relentless model. But it sure doesn't make Stormbolters completely worthless as a character upgrade in all the various Loyalist flavors of SM as well as Sisters forces. Oh, and it doesn't make it worthless as a special weapon for Sisters.

But other than that, I would say that Terminators should be a bit cheaper, and both Loyalist and Traitor need some help.

I've said it before, and the only protest seems to be fluff. But terminators should just get heavy stubbers. That gives them 36" range and 3 shots. Giving them 50% more shooting and giving them 12" more range. Fifteen S4 shots isn't spectacular, but it's not something you can just ignore.

Watch me.

Only marine players would knock a 50%+ improvement in a unit's shooting as not enough.

 TheSilo wrote:


Only marine players would knock a 50%+ improvement in a unit's shooting as not enough.

Only Martel

Nothing is good enough :/

But it's an improvement that is not a real improvement because of the limitations of S4 shooting in 7th ed. I'm not asking the moon here; just some guns that do something. Adding more shots to weapons that can't damage anything worthwhile is not a help. Let's put it this way: if that change wnet through, I STILL wouldn't use terminators. Grav is still better. Plasma is still better. Melta is still better. Autocannons are still better. S4 sucks.

 TheSilo wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
The main flaw of Salvo weapons is twofold:

1) Mechanically, Salvo status is irrelevant to Terminators; they're Relentless, so they're always considered to be stationary when determining what weapons may be fired at full-BS/RoF/range.
2) Salvo is an awesome "feth you" to any and all non-Relentless models that can take Stormbolters, which is more than you'd think in fact.

It's also why Assault 3 is a simpler solution- sure, it may not look as fancy as "Salvo 2/4", and it may not get quite as many shots as Salvo 2/4 would on a Relentless model. But it sure doesn't make Stormbolters completely worthless as a character upgrade in all the various Loyalist flavors of SM as well as Sisters forces. Oh, and it doesn't make it worthless as a special weapon for Sisters.

But other than that, I would say that Terminators should be a bit cheaper, and both Loyalist and Traitor need some help.

I've said it before, and the only protest seems to be fluff. But terminators should just get heavy stubbers. That gives them 36" range and 3 shots. Giving them 50% more shooting and giving them 12" more range. Fifteen S4 shots isn't spectacular, but it's not something you can just ignore.

It is something you can ignore. Fifteen s4 shots per model isn't spectacular. So you show up with your 60 s4 shots and a cyclone ML. You are using it to fight four waveserpents and a pair of wraithknights. At that point you are almost wishing they had brought a seer council.

You have to read the quote: " It's very intelligent to improve the appeal of units in need of reform by improving their utility- all the suggestions for merely improving their statline, or dropping their points is precisely the sort of thing which leads to power creep.

Except, you have to drop the parenthetical. You are raising a value on the weapon's stat line, you aren't actually increasing its ability. Like, greater values are not worth more points, lower values are not worth fewer points. If you bring an army that has storm bolters at assault 20, and you bring 20 storm bolters, you still don't have anything, because you opponents just start bringing t8 and supplemented AV units, e.g. AV+flicker field or AV+void shield.

But it's an improvement that is not a real improvement because of the limitations of S4 shooting in 7th ed. I'm not asking the moon here; just some guns that do something. Adding more shots to weapons that can't damage anything worthwhile is not a help. Let's put it this way: if that change wnet through, I STILL wouldn't use terminators. Grav is still better. Plasma is still better. Melta is still better. Autocannons are still better. S4 sucks.

exactly. If bolters were s6, you'd take them all the time even if they were only range 18", ap- and assault 1.

Am I suggesting that? No, because I don't think anyone is going to play any of the rule they are discussing in this thread. However, you'd play them a bit more often if that is what GW published tomorrow.

Allow them to assault independent target of choice after shooting.

"Return fire, name pending" Stormbolters/Combibolters when wearing TDA allows the termies to overwatch one enemy shooting attack per turn, Return fire also grants twinlinked.

Hightened senses and reaction time allows the termies to strike back against a ranged attack.

Yeah, return fire. Do they snapfire before the enemy shoots? At the same time? In initiative order? After? After is still an extra round of shooting. How about if they have a heavy flamer or combi flamer, do they get wall of death? Can they use frag missiles against a unit that shoots them from 30" away?

Go for it, totally use return fire. Just let me know how you are doing it.

Rule proposal j been trying to hammer into your head.

Name: Dakka grip taken from dnd money/gorilla grip. Definition, the feat to dual wield 2 ultra heavy great swords. The arms are so strong they each can fully use a big sword in each hand.

Dakka Grip:Terminators: This model can wield 2 storm bolters and can fire both in a shooting phase and overwatch. Can also dual wield heavy flamer, assault cannon, reaper ac, etc...

Beast with 2 backs: CAN HAS 2 CML!!!

Storm Bolter Bayonet. 1ppm for 2 storm bolters ppm. Units with this rule treat their storm bolters as ccw and gain bonus atk.